The poker professionals no one talks about.

[Alan Mendelson]

Call me naive, but I am just amazed at the number of people here in Southern California who play poker for a living. They don't get their names on TV or on websites or anywhere in the media because they don't win million dollar championships or gold and diamond bracelets or even gold rings. But they earn a living from the game and depend on it.

Some aren't successful at all and literally sleep in their cars outside of the casinos here in the Los Angeles area, eat the casino food when they get some comps, or when they can scrap up a few bucks for the discounted meals for "seated players."

Some are more successful than you might think and can "win" five to ten thousand dollars or more a month playing cash games with no one to tax them, and no one keeping track of their income, but at the same time earning no vacation time or having any health care or other benefits. Some of the pros will sit down at a game, and when they win $200 or $300 they'll call it quits. $300 a day for 30 days is $9,000.

Some of these pros are actually semi-pros because they have a "regular job" on the side. Some of these semi pros even own businesses and play poker all day -- and all night -- because someone else is "minding the store."

[arcimede$]

Very similar to many VP pros and recreational APers.

[redietz]

I doubt that the population that actually makes a consistent profit numbers beyond a few dozen. I remember when Hellmuth was coming up; he played 20/40 and 30/60 limit primarily. Maybe you can grind at those stakes, if rake is clock-based, and maybe at NL. But house take at all other levels will eat anyone alive, even the best.

[Rob.Singer]

Arci has to make up facts because, well, what else does he have to keep him going? I learned the truth about these so-called "vp pros who lurk unknown on the streets of LV" from one of the (a high limit player named Rick R.--his real name) and from my discussion after the wizard interviewed me.

Both said exactly the same thing: they call themselves professional gamblers, but while they make good money from sportsbetting (their most profitable gaming by far) and have occasional good luck at live poker, they do not beat the vp machines.

Alan, what is it that makes you believe these live players win? The wizard as well as other "pros" have told me that, while many, many live poker players have their days or weeks or months of being on top of the world playing, they ALL eventually go down the tubes. I've never cared much about digging into that further because that's not my interest. But do you have any other info that supports what you say, or do you see them win a lot?

[Alan Mendelson]

I doubt that the population that actually makes a consistent profit numbers beyond a few dozen. I remember when Hellmuth was coming up; he played 20/40 and 30/60 limit primarily. Maybe you can grind at those stakes, if rake is clock-based, and maybe at NL. But house take at all other levels will eat anyone alive, even the best.

You're probably right that the population of consistent winners is small. I was at that $100 buy in table at Hollywood park from about 10pm till 6-AM. When I finally left with my $307 profit (after tipping the dealers $1 per hand, plus tipping the chip runner $2 for cashing me out) the only player remaining from when I sat down at 10-PM was one of the two local "professionals." The other left at about 4-AM with a $400 profit. The eight other seats were filled with people who thought they could come to the casino to "win some money." On average they dropped about $300 each.

When I left one of the players at the table was in a hole of about $600.

[redietz]

One of the biggest pieces of self-serving misinformation is when ESPN and such broadcast the WSOP and put, next to players' names, "$X WSOP Earnings." That don't explain that's the gross, not the net. What they should publicize is, "$X WSOP Net Earnings." That would be a whole different set of figures, and not likely to make folks want to play poker at the WSOP.

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan, what is it that makes you believe these live players win? The wizard as well as other "pros" have told me that, while many, many live poker players have their days or weeks or months of being on top of the world playing, they ALL eventually go down the tubes. I've never cared much about digging into that further because that's not my interest. But do you have any other info that supports what you say, or do you see them win a lot?

Sure, they could be liars, but I see them at the same casinos on a consistent basis, and I see their chip stacks. I play the same "levels" wherever I go. At the Bike there is one room for "yellow chip" players which is the $100 and up games and I've been going there for years. And after several years you know who's who.

I don't play much at Commerce, but even there I've been introduced to the local pros because the Commerce has been on my TV show several times and the managers have taken me around. At the Commerce the local pros are playing $200 and up buy-ins. This is where you will also find buy-in games in the thousands of dollars.

Some of the big pros play at Hustler, and frankly, I've only played a few tournaments there (and did well, usually making the final table a majority of the time). But in the last year, Hustler tournaments have dropped in size and I haven't been there.

Unlike video poker, a patient player can decide when it's right to risk his money. At video poker you can't decide to fold the cards the RNG gives you and you have to pay in advance to see your cards.

At live poker, you only have to pay your blinds -- play them if you like -- or see free cards when you are not in a blind. The "economics" of the game is totally different.

I have a positive record playing cash games -- always have going back a few years now. But sometimes you have to play six or eight hours to make $200 bucks because it could take that long to find a pot where your cards are "right" and someone else has cards.

In fact, most of my $307 profit came in two hands. That's two hands out of almost eight hours of play from 10pm to almost 6am.