Online casino cheating

[smurgerburger]

So, you are suggesting I meet some person and pay him $1000 to substantiate your argument for you.

[kewlJ]

smurgerburger, I will offer up the Mindplay case as the example you are looking for. The casino industry knew this was cheating. They can read. They knew using this device, altered the outcome by shuffling away the negative counts. That changed the overall odds. AND they were using a device to do so.

Gaming experts were called as witnesses, that explained the math in no uncertain terms. And what did gaming do? Basically said "stop doing that". No criminal charges. No one went to jail. No one lost their license. There was no class action lawsuit (and there could have been from anyone that ever played at a table/casino using this device). Just, hey stop doing that. Imagine a repeat bank robber in front of the judge and the judge says. "hey stop doing that, will ya"? And the bank robber walks free.

there wasn't even a lot of publicity about the case outside of a few gambling forums and publications. So they didn't even suffer the consequences of bad press/reputation that there should have been involved with an intentional cheating case.

[redietz]

So, you are suggesting I meet some person and pay him $1000 to substantiate your argument for you.

You don't know who "Anthony Curtis" is? Wow. I'd show off and use his real name, but it would be wasted.

I was doing you a favor. "Curtis" threw me out of his office a few years back -- said he'd call "metro" if I showed up again. LOL. Man, you just don't know the basics. Not surprising. Interacting with you is a waste of keystrokes. I'm sure "Curtis" knows many examples of rigged drawings and problems with video poker chips. He's been there for 40 years.

I was doing you a favor. Hoping to boost your gambling IQ out of sheer generosity. Wasted keystrokes.

[1Hit1der]

The casinos may set up, and run, their games any way that they want. Nothing illegal about that.

MindPlay appears to be the evil offspring of SafeJack and SmartShoe21, a technological attempt at identifying and eliminating the threat of card counters. MindPlay is owned and distributed, appropriately, by Bally/Alliance Gaming, the same company that dominates the slot machine industry.

In 2007 Bally stopped supporting MindPlay. The product was plagued by a host of problems, from the cameras not staying calibrated, to the controller boards malfunctioning. These technical problems along with the need for constant software maintenance by Bally staff contributed to the phasing out of this system.

As well, apparently, some players found ways to take advantage of the machines.

[smurgerburger]

So, you are suggesting I meet some person and pay him $1000 to substantiate your argument for you.

You don't know who "Anthony Curtis" is? Wow. I'd show off and use his real name, but it would be wasted.

I was doing you a favor. "Curtis" threw me out of his office a few years back -- said he'd call "metro" if I showed up again. LOL. Man, you just don't know the basics. Not surprising.

Though I do not share your opinion that knowing who Anthony Curtis is is a measure of achievement, I should perhaps point out that you have not made a valid inference.

[redietz]

So, you are suggesting I meet some person and pay him $1000 to substantiate your argument for you.

You don't know who "Anthony Curtis" is? Wow. I'd show off and use his real name, but it would be wasted.

I was doing you a favor. "Curtis" threw me out of his office a few years back -- said he'd call "metro" if I showed up again. LOL. Man, you just don't know the basics. Not surprising.

Though I do not share your opinion that knowing who Anthony Curtis is is a measure of achievement, I should perhaps point out that you have not made a valid inference.

The inference is valid. You're like Ricardo Tubbs dropping into Miami and thinking you can tell the players (and reality) without a program. You can't.

[smurgerburger]

You don't know who "Anthony Curtis" is? Wow. I'd show off and use his real name, but it would be wasted.

I was doing you a favor. "Curtis" threw me out of his office a few years back -- said he'd call "metro" if I showed up again. LOL. Man, you just don't know the basics. Not surprising.

Though I do not share your opinion that knowing who Anthony Curtis is is a measure of achievement, I should perhaps point out that you have not made a valid inference.

The inference is valid. You're like Ricardo Tubbs dropping into Miami and thinking you can tell the players (and reality) without a program. You can't.

Is it valid because you will it to be so, or because of some argument that you have not yet formulated?

[kewlJ]

In 2007 Bally stopped supporting MindPlay. The product was plagued by a host of problems, from the cameras not staying calibrated, to the controller boards malfunctioning. These technical problems along with the need for constant software maintenance by Bally staff contributed to the phasing out of this system.

This is NOT an honest account of what went down. I have spoken with people like Al Rogers, involved in the case. There was a hearing involving gaming. This is where several gambling expert witnesses testified. The Mindplay side (manufacturer and gambling industry) tried to claim that the purpose of mindplay was to track player bets so they could be comped more accurately. What a fucking joke THAT was. So the eventual ruling was that ok, they could continue to use this technology which would allow them to comp players more accurately (<-), but had to do so on a delay. I Forget if it was 13 rounds, or 15 rounds or 19 rounds, but it was enough of a delay that they couldn't be tracking in real time, so they couldn't immediately shuffle away positive counts, altering the odds.

THAT was the slap on the wrist (not even) that I am referring to when they absolutely knew what they were doing was cheating.

So guess what? after the ruling that they had to implement a delay....enough that by the time they took any action, the shoe would be over, THAT is when they decided they were no longer interested and pulled the plug, releasing that bullshit PR statement about "problems with the technology". Again, funny there were no problems with the technology until Gaming said you can't do that.

The gambling industry is a crooked industry. You see it over and over and over. From something as minor as getting players drunk so they will lose more, to intention cheating when they think they can get away with it. And the referee (gaming) is not a neutral party. It is like the stories of the old south, where someone is arrested by the sheriff on trumped up charges and then goes to trial in from of the judge that happens to be the sheriff's brother-in-law.

What should have been the outcome of the mindplay case would be a major fine to the manufacturer, and possible disqualification from doing business with casinos. The casinos that used the technology should have been identified and fined for cheating, because you can't rob a bank and then claim that you didn't know it was illegal to rob a bank. AND there should have been headlines in the newspapers naming the casinos that cheated, which would have included many of the "big boys" on the Las Vegas strip. That would have been an appropriate penalty and deterrent for cheating in the future.

Instead they got a "aww, come on...stop doing that".

[mickeycrimm]

Seems a bit thin.

Yeah, that's great.

Here's my recommendation to you. The LVA has been there since I've been going to LV. We may have started within a year of each other. Email "Anthony Curtis" that you're willing to shell out $1000 for a one-hour summary of what he knows about drawings being rigged or vp chips being flawed and so on. See if he's willing to sit down with an off-the-record spiel. I think it would be well worth the $1000.

If you do it, tell him I want a coffee and danish as a finders' fee.

Meanwhile, I shared about all I'm going to share. I'm "thin" and you are "uninformed with a dose of naive." I'd rather be "thin."

It was the Venetian that rigged the drawing in favor of a whale. They didn't rig it for themselves. They wanted the whale to win. They suffered a lot of bad publicity. If you suspect you were cheated in a poker game would you go back to that same game? Just the suspicion of cheating is bad for business. Ask Anthony Curtis.

There was the case of American Coin Co. gaffing chips in some of the locals bars. That was in 1990. There was the Gaming Control agent Ronald Harris, who was caught gaffing machines so he could hit jackpots. that was like 1998. So yes, anyone can say "hey, you don't believe cheating has gone on, you're a chump." But there are about 1,000,000 slots in the country. The number of cases compared to the number of machines is insignificant.

Now, Indian Casinos. I would have to guess that I've been in at least 200 Indian Casinos. Oklahoma alone has 140 and I've been in all of them. I wasn't playing video poker. I was playing advantage slots. I made a very healthy profit. Video poker is highly unpopular in the Indian Casinos. A casino can have 2000 machines but only maybe 2 dozen of them are video pokers.

Now let's talk about how Indian casinos can gaff machines. They are not going to re-program a 90% chip. They are simply going to remove the 90% chip and replace it with an 85% chip. So they are not gaffing anything at all.

But the Indian casinos are in competition with other Indian casinos, along with commercial casinos, so they have to give a competitive payback.

I myself can tell the difference between an 85% game and a 90% game just by playing them. And one has to give the ploppies at least a little bit of credit even though they have superstitions. I hear them all the time "I never won in that goddam casino so I quit going there." They weren't cheated they just ran rough.

The one thing ploppies understand is how fast their money is disappearing. Very bad payback is an action killer. So Indian casinos are not gaffing chips. They don't have to. They just put a lower payback chip in the machine if they want to. But like I said, ploppies notice how fast their money is disappearing.

It's the same for the commercial casinos.

[accountinquestion]

Some facts.

Smurgerburger has accomplished more in actual gambling than Curtis and Dietz combined.

What kewl claimed is far different contrary to his assertions. He claimed a billion dollar company rigged the shufflers before they were sold. Furthermore he claimed that this cheat mode could be discovered in minutes. Something akin to programming a vcr without a manual.

Redietz ridicules people for not spending tons of time trying to find obscure valueless magazines that have long since been discarded. Yet he can't even give descriptions of what he references yet he once again ridicules others to prove his own bullshit.

[1Hit1der]

Some facts.Smurgerburger has accomplished more in actual gambling than Curtis and Dietz combined.

Bigger than Seedvalue?

[accountinquestion]

Some facts.Smurgerburger has accomplished more in actual gambling than Curtis and Dietz combined.

Bigger than Seedvalue?

Those who pack a real one don't brag to other men unless they're gay or full of it.

[1Hit1der]

Some facts.Smurgerburger has accomplished more in actual gambling than Curtis and Dietz combined.

Bigger than Seedvalue?

Those who pack a real one don't brag to other men unless they're gay or full of it.

Not a straight answer, let alone the full picture.

Here's a fun fact that's self-evident. The first (1st) sixty (60) non-zero digits, of pi, squared (to the power of 2) amount to 2061, with the bold digits reversed to form the answer. Not to waste another post. Ha.


3^2 + 1^2 + 4^2 + 1^2 + 5^2 + 9^2 + 2^2 + 6^2 + 5^2 + 3^2 + 5^2 + 8^2 + 9^2 + 7^2 + 9^2 + 3^2 + 2^2 + 3^2 + 8^2 + 4^2 + 6^2 + 2^2 + 6^2 + 4^2 + 3^2 + 3^2 + 8^2 + 3^2 + 2^2 + 7^2 + 9^2 + 5^2 + 2^2 + 8^2 + 8^2 + 4^2 + 1^2 + 9^2 + 7^2 + 1^2 + 6^2 + 9^2 + 3^2 + 9^2 + 9^2 + 3^2 + 7^2 + 5^2 + 1^2 + 5^2 + 8^2 + 2^2 + 9^2 + 7^2 + 4^2 + 9^2 + 4^2 + 4^2 + 5^2 + 9^2 = 2061 = 1961 + 100.

[1Hit1der]

Here's a fun fact that's self-evident. The first (1st) sixty (60) non-zero digits, of pi, squared (to the power of 2) amount to 2061, with the bold digits reversed to form the answer. Not to waste another post. Ha.

3^2 + 1^2 + 4^2 + 1^2 + 5^2 + 9^2 + 2^2 + 6^2 + 5^2 + 3^2 + 5^2 + 8^2 + 9^2 + 7^2 + 9^2 + 3^2 + 2^2 + 3^2 + 8^2 + 4^2 + 6^2 + 2^2 + 6^2 + 4^2 + 3^2 + 3^2 + 8^2 + 3^2 + 2^2 + 7^2 + 9^2 + 5^2 + 2^2 + 8^2 + 8^2 + 4^2 + 1^2 + 9^2 + 7^2 + 1^2 + 6^2 + 9^2 + 3^2 + 9^2 + 9^2 + 3^2 + 7^2 + 5^2 + 1^2 + 5^2 + 8^2 + 2^2 + 9^2 + 7^2 + 4^2 + 9^2 + 4^2 + 4^2 + 5^2 + 9^2 = 2061 = 1961 + 100.

In fact, with the zeroes included, the first thus sixty digits amount to 1939 = (2000 - 61) ---> 2061, if try to make another year of it. And, not so incidentally, 1939 = 277*7 ---> 2/7, as in 2 July.

I, just, tried the same for Euler's number. Which thus involves the same number of zeroes.

e = 2.718281828459045235360287471352662497757247093699 95957496696762... .

Sum of squares of sixty digits above, without zeroes, is 2124 = 2*(1062) = 2*(1000 + 6*10 + 2) ---> 216_612. But, with zeroes, is 2035 = ( 2000 + 6^2 -1) ---> 2061, if try to make another year of it.

Probably, the two most famous mathematical constants. Along with 216 = 6*6*6 ---> 666. Ha.

[jdog]

Now let's talk about how Indian casinos can gaff machines. They are not going to re-program a 90% chip. They are simply going to remove the 90% chip and replace it with an 85% chip.

What about class II slot machines whose payouts are based on a bingo card? As I understand it the bingo result is generated by a 3rd computer and the result can be set up to correspond to any RTP they wish. Now if the 3rd computer is located elsewhere (or can be controlled remotely) then they could essentially make RTP changes whenever they want to.

[jojo]

It might depend on where you play? You have to be especially careful and attentive when you start playing something online. I myself had an experience where I came across websites that seemed attractive to me and, as I thought at the time, had good bonuses and all that... but then suddenly I was on the verge of getting into debt but I stopped in time. I stepped away from gaming for a while, spending that time on myself and my personal development. I still had the desire to return but to avoid trouble again, I decided to learn as much as I could about how casinos work. I came back and now I choose games and only play here. I enjoy playing and don't lose 16 times in a row.

[accountinquestion]

It might depend on where you play? You have to be especially careful and attentive when you start playing something online. I myself had an experience where I came across websites that seemed attractive to me and, as I thought at the time, had good bonuses and all that... but then suddenly I was on the verge of getting into debt but I stopped in time. I stepped away from gaming for a while, spending that time on myself and my personal development. I still had the desire to return but to avoid trouble again, I decided to learn as much as I could about how casinos work. I came back and now I choose games and only play here. I enjoy playing and don't lose 16 times in a row.

That's because you were scammed in that site

[DGenBen]

It might depend on where you play? You have to be especially careful and attentive when you start playing something online. I myself had an experience where I came across websites that seemed attractive to me and, as I thought at the time, had good bonuses and all that... but then suddenly I was on the verge of getting into debt but I stopped in time. I stepped away from gaming for a while, spending that time on myself and my personal development. I still had the desire to return but to avoid trouble again, I decided to learn as much as I could about how casinos work. I came back and now I choose games and only play here. I enjoy playing and don't lose 16 times in a row.

Are you related to Jo Jo Dancer?

[jdog]

I think he's another spambot.

[jojo]

nope