Asking Obvious Questions

[redietz]

Regarding various challenges, nobody has asked the most obvious questions. A forum packed with AP luminaries, and yet the following basic questions have gone unaddressed.

1) When a casino prints a won/loss statement, is there any law that requires the person receiving it to read it?
2) When a casino prints a won/loss statement, is there any NGCB regulation requiring the person receiving it to read it?

Be patient.

3) When a casino prints a person's won/loss statement, is there any law that requires that person to sign off on it as accurate and a matter of legal record?
4) When a casino prints a person's won/loss statement, is there any NGCB regulation that requires that person to sign off on it as accurate and a matter of legal record?

5) Is there any federal or state law precluding a casino as a corporation from providing a partial (thereby inaccurate) won/loss statement to an individual upon that person's request?
6) Is there any NGSB regulation precluding a host from providing a partial (thereby inaccurate) won/loss statement to an individual upon that person's request?

Bear in mind that (A) casinos often publicly announce large sports wager winners, with the winners' permission, without framing the overall won/loss situation of the gambler and (B) the WSOP uses "WSOP winnings" as a public metric that often accompanies a person's name during broadcasts and does so without referencing the person's true overall WSOP net winnings. Yet "gross winnings" is not the printed phrase accompanying names.

To continue:

7) Is there any motivation for a corporation to NOT provide partial (thereby inaccurate) won/loss statements that feature the absence of certain losses to individuals upon their request? What is the downside?
8) Is there any motivation for a host to NOT provide partial (thereby inaccurate) won/loss statements that feature the absence of certain losses to individuals upon their request? What is the downside?

Motive, means, opportunity.

In 1973 or thereabouts, Sports Illustrated published a full-page article regarding a real estate agent turned handicapper who, a writer and the agent solemnly claimed, had managed to win about 85% of his wagers ATS for a season. A year later, after following said real estate agent for a season, SI published what amounted to a worthless retraction stating that the guy, despite occasionally "dreaming results," had won less than half his games. The "retraction" was worthless in that the first article had garnered all kinds of attention and made the guy wealthy overnight. The "update" a year later had no effect on what had already transpired. I bring up this example as a lesson to certain forum owners who allow odds-against claims wall-to-wall for five years, then decide that maybe I'll have someone else take a statistical look while keeping a Pontius Pilate distance from whatever the result. After five years of allowing nonsense, the forum owner should be shot. But everyone knows this.

[Mission146]

1.) No. Why would there be? Technically, tax law requires you to report ALL gambling winnings that (for non-professional gamblers) can have losses taken as a deduction, but only to the extent of winnings. IOW, if you lost more than you won, then it's as if you didn't even win and the IRS certainly doesn't care to let you deduct gambling losses from other income.

-One major exception to this answer is people for whom the Standard Deduction is more than they could get to in itemized losses; for them, in effect, gambling losses might as well not be deductible.

2.) Casinos outside of Nevada have win/loss statements, so I'll let you figure that one out.

3.) No. A win/loss statement is something that a player may request and is mostly printed for that player's benefit. Whether or not a casino is required to provide one, upon request of the player, is something that I don't know and could possibly vary by jurisdiction.

4.) No. You can have a win/loss statement mailed and sometimes E-Mailed to you; how would you sign off on that? It's not as if you physically have to appear to get a win/loss statement.

5.) I don't know the laws for every goddamn state. In general terms, Federal law doesn't really regulate gambling too much. What I will say is that there are any number of laws that could be broken if someone knowingly falsifies an official document, regardless of whether or not the document's contents are themselves regulated by law. That could especially apply if you had reason to know, or suspect, that the document was being used for an unlawful purpose.

6.) I'm not aware; I couldn't find anything to that effect in a quick search; you really want a Nevada Gaming Attorney, at this point. Interestingly, I did stumble across the fact that...and I don't know if this regulation is still technically active...but shill wins and shill losses are not reportable for or against casino revenues. Obviously, they wouldn't be allowed; it was just funny to see that in writing.

I think what you're wanting to drive at is a W/L statement an official document for the purposes of taxation; it's not. Still, if a document is falsified and the document later used in conjunction with the commission of a crime (civil tort or criminal offense), then the person who did the falsifying could theoretically be culpable.

7.) The downside is that it could be used for fraud; I'd especially argue that would be a concern if I were a casino employee and someone was asking me to print a W/L, but scrub major losses. Perhaps they are using it with a plan to submit it to a financial institution to demonstrate cash earned for the year that wouldn't really be found on any other income document, especially if there were no W2-G's involved. A person might also want such a document for the purposes of demonstrating where money to be laundered came from; I can think of all sorts of reasons I wouldn't want to falsify such a document if I were a casino corporation or employee. There's also the question of perhaps being terminated from employment...though I assume I'm being paid quite well for this document falsification, in this hypothetical.

8.) See #7

[Mission146]

Someone is going to say I'm bullshitting; I just know it:

https://gaming.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/...egulation6.pdf

6.110. Gross Revenue Computations...

5. A licensee shall not include either shill win or shill loss in gross revenue computations.
(Adopted: 10/87. Effective: 1/88.)

That's funny, right? Official accounting regulations. I got a laugh out of it.

[Mission146]

Let me give you an example that's not an exact parallel, but it's the same sort of idea.

Let's suppose that someone wanted to have a major tax deduction and I still managed a hotel:

This person gets the idea that, if I can find some very long-term stay and print out a folio (read: receipt) with their name and address on it (as opposed to that of the actual guest), then they can say they had to go out of town for some work-related reason and incurred expenses in that regard; therefore, they can get a tax deduction for that. Actually, I think it could even be someone local if they claim to have separated from a spouse, were living separately (during the separation) and filed the taxes married, filing separately; it would count as a separate residence. MisterV would be a good one to answer that, but I believe so. Naturally, the person would have to be married in the first place.

Now, you might be asking, "Could you actually make such a thing happen?"

Abso-fucking-lutely! Don't get me wrong, there'd be a record of it in the system, but I could literally jump in and change the name and address and then print the folio, then just change it back again. Actually, I could even create a totally new stay as if checked in, manually input entries for room charges and taxes (these would look slightly off on the folio, but the wording would be the same and the IRS would almost certainly not know any better) for the prior dates, bill it to a credit card, check it out, print the folio, then immediately refund the charges to the credit card. The IRS would have no idea about the credit card part and would almost certainly think the folio was legit; they'd almost have to be looking at two folios from the same hotel, side-by-side, to notice a difference.

What else could I do...I could take someone who is actively staying (if there's a card), zero out their running total, check them out, change name and address, print folio, change name and address back, reverse checkout. Other than the fact that it looks like I charged on a weird date (unless it was a multiple of the seventh day of the stay anyway, which would make complete sense for the stay to temporarily zero out), the guest would never know the difference. If the guest were to even ask about that, you could say, "It looks like someone fat-fingered it and checked you out by mistake. There aren't any real safeguards against that because it only takes one button to reverse it."

Probably the easiest thing to do would be just to create a totally fictitious stay(s) as long as they had a credit card that could cover the billing. The IRS would have no way of knowing that we would never pre-auth for more than a week at once, so even billing a thirty-day stay at once might not look that unusual to them.

Obviously, I never did anything even remotely along those lines. The only thing I ever did was sometimes create a few comp guests that didn't exist, block rooms or rent out of the system and block rooms to make us look sold out when we weren't. Why? Fuck the franchisor, that's why. (You got a higher percentage of ADR (average daily revenue---read-average cost per room) for that night on loyalty point rooms if you were sold out---huge difference. We're talking $25-$45 (or maybe $55) fixed, depending on demand season, vs. 90% of ADR if you were sold out.

[redietz]

1.) No. Why would there be? Technically, tax law requires you to report ALL gambling winnings that (for non-professional gamblers) can have losses taken as a deduction, but only to the extent of winnings. IOW, if you lost more than you won, then it's as if you didn't even win and the IRS certainly doesn't care to let you deduct gambling losses from other income.

-One major exception to this answer is people for whom the Standard Deduction is more than they could get to in itemized losses; for them, in effect, gambling losses might as well not be deductible.

2.) Casinos outside of Nevada have win/loss statements, so I'll let you figure that one out.

3.) No. A win/loss statement is something that a player may request and is mostly printed for that player's benefit. Whether or not a casino is required to provide one, upon request of the player, is something that I don't know and could possibly vary by jurisdiction.

4.) No. You can have a win/loss statement mailed and sometimes E-Mailed to you; how would you sign off on that? It's not as if you physically have to appear to get a win/loss statement.

5.) I don't know the laws for every goddamn state. In general terms, Federal law doesn't really regulate gambling too much. What I will say is that there are any number of laws that could be broken if someone knowingly falsifies an official document, regardless of whether or not the document's contents are themselves regulated by law. That could especially apply if you had reason to know, or suspect, that the document was being used for an unlawful purpose.

6.) I'm not aware; I couldn't find anything to that effect in a quick search; you really want a Nevada Gaming Attorney, at this point. Interestingly, I did stumble across the fact that...and I don't know if this regulation is still technically active...but shill wins and shill losses are not reportable for or against casino revenues. Obviously, they wouldn't be allowed; it was just funny to see that in writing.

I think what you're wanting to drive at is a W/L statement an official document for the purposes of taxation; it's not. Still, if a document is falsified and the document later used in conjunction with the commission of a crime (civil tort or criminal offense), then the person who did the falsifying could theoretically be culpable.

7.) The downside is that it could be used for fraud; I'd especially argue that would be a concern if I were a casino employee and someone was asking me to print a W/L, but scrub major losses. Perhaps they are using it with a plan to submit it to a financial institution to demonstrate cash earned for the year that wouldn't really be found on any other income document, especially if there were no W2-G's involved. A person might also want such a document for the purposes of demonstrating where money to be laundered came from; I can think of all sorts of reasons I wouldn't want to falsify such a document if I were a casino corporation or employee. There's also the question of perhaps being terminated from employment...though I assume I'm being paid quite well for this document falsification, in this hypothetical.

8.) See #7

Mission, for the record, I agree with everything here (and knew about 80% of it). I haven't read one word over at WOV regarding this, so nothing I wrote here is a reaction to that. It's a reaction and blueprint for here. Everything I wrote is obvious and basic and frames the ridiculousness of using won/loss statements as evidence for much of anything.

And anyone who allowed what Sports Illustrated allowed, but did it for five years, should be shot. If you want to borrow a firearm, I have a fine Baretta shotgun. The rest of my firearms were stolen in a robbery about eight years ago.

P.S. I deducted living expenses at LV casinos and motels (like Warren Apartments across from Mandalay and such) for decades. Never cheated once. Wish I'd gotten a little coaching on how to do so.

[Mission146]

Well, I certainly hope you enjoyed the 20% you didn't know as well as the hotel insight.

[MDawg]

There are lots of occasions where WIN/LOSS statements might be introduced as evidence of something or other, for example in the context of a lawsuit. The actual results in the statements might not even matter - they might be introduced simply to show that the plaintiff (or defendant) is a gambler.

But for someone like me, who plays at private tables where the rack is counted before and after each session, whatever the pit boss reports for me is entirely accurate. Doesn't mean that it is attested to under penalty of perjury, which means that they are not used (or even received) by the government, but for my own purposes such as for filing taxes, they are all I need as far as the receivables side of things.

I skimmed what REDietz and M146 wrote, and they keep talking about a "host." A host has nothing to do with win/loss statements. They are reported by the pit and tabulated by a department of the casino that has nothing to do with the host. Casino Marketing doesn't get involved with win/loss statements or anything to do with calculating pit results.

You'd need a whole different thread to talk about what hosts do with those figures that the pit supplies.

PERPETUAL COMP MACHINE

[Mission146]

The word, 'Host' appears exactly zero times in my post. Why the fuck would a host be responsible for that? "Hey, where's my 20% of actual loss on this guy? He's down two million; check out this win/loss statement I just printed! See?"

Also, Red, I agree that's a bad look for SI, but I can kind of understand something like that coming from a journalist who had almost zero understanding of sports betting.

[coach belly]

the ridiculousness of using won/loss statements as evidence for much of anything.

There are lots of occasions where WIN/LOSS statements might be introduced as evidence

Hardwick v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue

In this case, the available evidence included IRS Form W2-G’s, a gambling log kept by the taxpayers, casino win/loss statements, bank statements and the taxpayers own testimony at trial.

Judge Wherry relied upon casino win/loss statements to impeach the credibility of the taxpayers’ other evidence.

Instead of using the casino win/loss statement as a shield for the taxpayers, the IRS and the Court used it as a sword against the taxpayers.

Merkin v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue

Dr. Merkin did not carry on his gambling activity in a businesslike manner. See sec. 1.183-2(b)(1), Income Tax Regs. He did not maintain any receipts, books, or records but instead relied solely upon Mohegan Sun to track all of his playing time, betting history, wins, and losses on his Player’s Club card.

Judge Goldberg then went on to use the information contained in the casino win/loss statements against the taxpayer.

https://www.morrellawpllc.com/tax-pr...r%20persuasive.

[coach belly]

Motive, means, opportunity.

Are you asserting that, because an unusual act or event is possible, then it should be considered likely to occur, or likely to have occurred?

[redietz]

The word, 'Host' appears exactly zero times in my post. Why the fuck would a host be responsible for that? "Hey, where's my 20% of actual loss on this guy? He's down two million; check out this win/loss statement I just printed! See?"

Also, Red, I agree that's a bad look for SI, but I can kind of understand something like that coming from a journalist who had almost zero understanding of sports betting.

The journalist who went to bat for Schachter (Sheridan) was part of the problem. Actually, he was the problem. They used a classic misdirection trick that has been used many times by people trying to fake paranormal abilities. The trick enables the person doing the verifying to swear in court and likely pass a polygraph. The getting rich doesn't happen in the SI case without the original on-site journalist.

Some people believe some of the Rhine paranormal results at Duke occurred because of a similar set-up with the storing of predictions and results.

Can't do it justice in a post. Deserves a couple of books.

[Mission146]

the ridiculousness of using won/loss statements as evidence for much of anything.

There are lots of occasions where WIN/LOSS statements might be introduced as evidence

Hardwick v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue

In this case, the available evidence included IRS Form W2-G’s, a gambling log kept by the taxpayers, casino win/loss statements, bank statements and the taxpayers own testimony at trial.

Judge Wherry relied upon casino win/loss statements to impeach the credibility of the taxpayers’ other evidence.

Instead of using the casino win/loss statement as a shield for the taxpayers, the IRS and the Court used it as a sword against the taxpayers.

Merkin v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue

Dr. Merkin did not carry on his gambling activity in a businesslike manner. See sec. 1.183-2(b)(1), Income Tax Regs. He did not maintain any receipts, books, or records but instead relied solely upon Mohegan Sun to track all of his playing time, betting history, wins, and losses on his Player’s Club card.

Judge Goldberg then went on to use the information contained in the casino win/loss statements against the taxpayer.

https://www.morrellawpllc.com/tax-pr...r%20persuasive.

Damn, Coach!

You're like one of those player-coaches, in baseball, from the olden days. You called your own number to pinch hit and blasted one out of the park.

That's why I always suggest that people keep a detailed logbook. As long as the numbers don't get too ridiculous, there are places that wouldn't be tracking your play (under any conditions) anyway and any claimed losses from those locations wouldn't really be falsifiable even if the IRS wanted to. Again, I don't know what they'd do if you were trying to offset six or seven figures in W2-G's, no experience with that, obviously.

[Mission146]

The word, 'Host' appears exactly zero times in my post. Why the fuck would a host be responsible for that? "Hey, where's my 20% of actual loss on this guy? He's down two million; check out this win/loss statement I just printed! See?"

Also, Red, I agree that's a bad look for SI, but I can kind of understand something like that coming from a journalist who had almost zero understanding of sports betting.

The journalist who went to bat for Schachter (Sheridan) was part of the problem. Actually, he was the problem. They used a classic misdirection trick that has been used many times by people trying to fake paranormal abilities. The trick enables the person doing the verifying to swear in court and likely pass a polygraph. The getting rich doesn't happen in the SI case without the original on-site journalist.

Some people believe some of the Rhine paranormal results at Duke occurred because of a similar set-up with the storing of predictions and results.

Can't do it justice in a post. Deserves a couple of books.

Shit, you'd sell me at least one copy of each.

[coach belly]

That's why I always suggest that people keep a detailed logbook.

Something like "The Adventures of MDawg"?

Let's cut to the chase here.

Is it ridiculous for MDawg to use win/loss statements as evidence that support his claims?

Would it be ridiculous to accept MDawg's win/loss statements as evidence that support his claims?

Since courts have relied on win/loss statements, then aren't they, by definition, reliable?

[Mission146]

Answers:

1. As evidence? No. When did I say it was? Actually, my report will specifically point to...I think it was 2020...where his W/L results and trip report totals are close enough as to be a rounding error. Evidently, there were also videos of the same W/L reports, but homeboy made them private, for some reason. As I've already said, I'm being totally impartial despite MDawg's attempts to poison the well and accuse me of bias.

2. No. This isn't a fucking court. Anyone can accept, or not accept, whatever they wish as evidence.

3.) No. I'm not sure that the precedent created in that court will automatically apply in every possible jurisdiction now. Beyond that, it doesn't make the W/L statement correct. An easy example of this is if you play unrated AT ALL, unless you finish dead even on all unrated play, then your W/L will automatically not be exactly right to reflect what happened to the penny.

[redietz]

That's why I always suggest that people keep a detailed logbook.

Something like "The Adventures of MDawg"?

Let's cut to the chase here.

Is it ridiculous for MDawg to use win/loss statements as evidence that support his claims?

Would it be ridiculous to accept MDawg's win/loss statements as evidence that support his claims?

Since courts have relied on win/loss statements, then aren't they, by definition, reliable?

LOL. C'mon, coach. Not everyone was born yesterday.

I think "since courts have relied on win/loss statements," they may indeed be reliable (drumroll, please) IN COURT.

How obvious was that?

You know, in court? With people raising their right hands and all under threat of perjury? With people swearing under oath that the presented document is a complete accounting of wins/losses at a location? With attorneys vouching for the accuracy and legitimacy and provenance of the "wins/loss statements?" All under threat of perjury.

Other than that, you make a fine argument, coach.

[coach belly]

When did I say it was?

I don't know when or if you did.

I asked a question, I didn't assert or imply that you had previously opined.

[coach belly]

You know, in court? With people raising their right hands and all under threat of perjury? With people swearing under oath that the presented document is a complete accounting of wins/losses at a location? With attorneys vouching for the accuracy and legitimacy and provenance of the "wins/loss statements?" All under threat of perjury.

In the cases I linked, the win/loss statements conflicted with the defenses' arguments.

Are you assuming that a witness swore under oath that the casino statement was a complete accounting of wins/losses at a location, and that was the basis for the judge to find the documents reliable?

My understanding is that casinos make no such representation about the win/loss statements.

[mickeycrimm]

The win/loss statement was USED AGAINST THE TAXPAYER but good luck TRYING TO USE IT IN YOUR FAVOR when you files taxes. The IRS wants a log. They don't accept casino win/loss statements as proof of anything.

[MDawg]

The point is that no one around here has offered a damn thing as proof of anything. Except MDawg.