Don't talk about fight club or this...

[AxelWolf]

I'm probably a hypocrite for posting this, but I know it's getting posted here and WOV regardless.

Whatever the case, I have been fighting "the good fight" for years, but I can't fight technology and people's massive desire to share TMI publicly("Hey look at me"). I kinda gave up a while ago. I only occasionally let someone new know they should probably keep things to themselves. Eventually, most people figure that out. Some never do.

Note that they talk about card counters getting into slots.

I watched it unfold(I noted at the time, "This is bad, really bad!") and can track it back to the main source/person when the shit hit the fan and all the card counters jumped into slots. Obviously, a few card counters have always trickled into slots but there was a time and incident that opened up the floodgates.

Security expert says slot advantage play costing casino industry tens of millions nationwide
https://cdcgaming.com/security-exper...ns-nationwide/

[MisterV]

Interesting article: it clearly explains the AP slot play.

Will casinos monitor return play in order to detect slot AP's as he suggests?

Until then, I guess this "loophole" remains viable.

[Mission146]

There are no such loopholes because the casinos have spent millions of dollars on every gambling study imaginable. Much more likely a case of another guy selling a book, or courses, about casino cheating, etc., like Jacobson, who didn't elaborate on the supposed such windfalls by the players. I challenged him, for specifics, at the WoV. So much supposed money, but he was totally unable explain any of it.

Such a relatively low-income pursuit that the casinos can't further optimize their own profits.

God himself could tell you card running is a thing and you wouldn't believe it.

It would actually benefit me if casinos took countermeasures; I don't think most card running guys would be interested in straight up vulture play (in and of itself) and would try to find a better angle than that, so there's that competition gone...lots of them will do vulturing stuff if they're there anyway. Another thing that would happen is you wouldn't have card running teams taking sub-100% must-hits on the grounds that they're presumed better than other slots and you're guaranteed to get some amount of money back.

In any event, this is yet another example of an industry that controls the fucking games, controls the rules and then cries like bitches when someone figures out a way to beat them. How dumb do you have to be to not be able to dictate a game's rules such as to ensure you almost always win? Also, must-hits...almost by design...don't really benefit recreational players at all, in most cases, quite the contrary. Hex and Regal are two other examples of games where recreational players just get fucking pummeled and create decent situations for vultures...or sometimes even card runners depending on the specific setup and bet amounts available.

I don't know why Ocean Magic isn't as popular (at least near me) as it once was, but I'll take a casino having five of those over having ten Hexbreakers. Princess Jasmine's husband also fell out of favor, but I could see where that would be another example of one where casual players just get hopelessly massacred; probably the game based on a popular phone app game, as well.

[MDawg]

And people still complain about why I won't explain exactly how or why I win...I've already said too much myself.

[MaxPen]

I'm probably a hypocrite for posting this, but I know it's getting posted here and WOV regardless.

Whatever the case, I have been fighting "the good fight" for years, but I can't fight technology and people's massive desire to share TMI publicly("Hey look at me"). I kinda gave up a while ago. I only occasionally let someone new know they should probably keep things to themselves. Eventually, most people figure that out. Some never do.

Note that they talk about card counters getting into slots.

I watched it unfold(I noted at the time, "This is bad, really bad!") and can track it back to the main source/person when the shit hit the fan and all the card counters jumped into slots. Obviously, a few card counters have always trickled into slots but there was a time and incident that opened up the floodgates.

Security expert says slot advantage play costing casino industry tens of millions nationwide
https://cdcgaming.com/security-exper...ns-nationwide/

I called it 2 years ago......lol

But on the bright side if you want to call it that. The US casino industry was built on offers. If they eliminate them many will close. Will be interesting to see how they handle this now that they are on notice. Anyhow, if a person exploiting this hasn't made a lifetime worth of money by now then they never would have to begin with.

Stopping this is not going to be like stopping card counting. Casinos can't spend $10 to prevent losing a $1 when pretty much their entire source of revenue is going to be affected by what they do. The only thing they can do is scale back to a point it doesn't hurt too much....lol

I expect it to get to a point that the AP will have to have an extensive knowledge to earn a low 3 figure hourly rate. If the tactics required for that earn are distributed then the casino industry will wind up a shell of its former self.

So there's always going to be opportunity but the glory days of are ending......RIP

[accountinquestion]

There is some twitter account that sounds like a piece of food. Seems like an ok guy I guess. Just sorta lovable easy going schlub learned to count cards. He used to be kinda cool, driving around, camping in his car with his dog. Proud that he was making it happen. Then some influencer comes across him, gives him 10k in chips, tells him he likes his content. Now this guy is shilling for the influencer and wanting to fit in so bad himself. Went from a cool regular ol degen kinda guy to some loser trying to be an influencer. He also feels some big need to prove he is a winning gambler. The kind of dude who would never figure out anything on his own .... but he's ready to show everyone who will listen. There are too many of these types. I once came across a WSOP poker dealer. This woman wanted to tell anyone who would listen that she plays slots professionally.

Anyway, talking about how great some tacos are and getting drunk hootin' n hollerin' is not going to turn you into an influencer any way. You gotta show all those big buffalo hits though.

[accountinquestion]

The easier it is for them to learn then the easier it is for them to tell others. Kinda sux. They put no value on the information.

[AxelWolf]

I'm probably a hypocrite for posting this, but I know it's getting posted here and WOV regardless.

Whatever the case, I have been fighting "the good fight" for years, but I can't fight technology and people's massive desire to share TMI publicly("Hey look at me"). I kinda gave up a while ago. I only occasionally let someone new know they should probably keep things to themselves. Eventually, most people figure that out. Some never do.

Note that they talk about card counters getting into slots.

I watched it unfold(I noted at the time, "This is bad, really bad!") and can track it back to the main source/person when the shit hit the fan and all the card counters jumped into slots. Obviously, a few card counters have always trickled into slots but there was a time and incident that opened up the floodgates.

Security expert says slot advantage play costing casino industry tens of millions nationwide
https://cdcgaming.com/security-exper...ns-nationwide/

I called it 2 years ago......lol

But on the bright side if you want to call it that. The US casino industry was built on offers. If they eliminate them many will close. Will be interesting to see how they handle this now that they are on notice. Anyhow, if a person exploiting this hasn't made a lifetime worth of money by now then they never would have to begin with.

Stopping this is not going to be like stopping card counting. Casinos can't spend $10 to prevent losing a $1 when pretty much their entire source of revenue is going to be affected by what they do. The only thing they can do is scale back to a point it doesn't hurt too much....lol

I expect it to get to a point that the AP will have to have an extensive knowledge to earn a low 3 figure hourly rate. If the tactics required for that earn are distributed then the casino industry will wind up a shell of its former self.

So there's always going to be opportunity but the glory days of are ending......RIP

I saw it more than 2 years ago. It's fine with me, I'm a survivor, I have been through the wringer more than I would like to admit, but I'll figure out the next thing no matter what happens.

[mickeycrimm]

Redietz recently explained to us how trying to exploit freeplay doesn't work.

Now Darren Hoke is explaining to us how much money the casinos are losing to those that work the freeplay.

Who should we believe? redietz or darren?

[redietz]

Redietz recently explained to us how trying to exploit freeplay doesn't work.

Now Darren Hoke is explaining to us how much money the casinos are losing to those that work the freeplay.

Who should we believe? redietz or darren?

I'm sure there's a fine reason mickey didn't quote me on this. LOL.

[mickeycrimm]

I'm sure there's a fine reason mickey didn't quote me on this. LOL.

Yes, there was a very good reason. I was to lazy to do it. But since you insist. Here we go.

At Gambling Forums, in the VCT Thread, post 1612, I wrote "What Druff described is a classic AP move. Play a game in the 98 to 99% range. Run 30 or 40K in action in a short amount off time, 5 or six hours. Then wait on the casino offers. Druff said the game was in the high 98's percentage wise. That's perfect to bait marketing into thinking you are a pure ass sucker."

Redietz wrote about this strategy in a few following posts. Here is the criticism he leveled at the play:

Post 1620, "Much of the "AP" repertoire consists of assumptions. If you want to operate and lay out 35K or 40K for no guaranteed reason on a negative expectation game, that's fine with me. Just don't sell it as "advantage play" when you don't actually know in present or future tense if it's actually any advantage. Because you don't know. You're hoping. Most of these "AP" comments are trying to hammer home the idea that speculating that something is an advantage play is good enough to play it. If that's your philosophy, fine. But you're missing a key strategical issue. f one in 50 of your presumed advantage plays results in your playing and then getting kneecapped by marketing without the assumed advantage, there goes your overall advantage. Then you've become a sucker, not an advantage player."

Post 1621, "I suppose, if offers are amazing, then you would have to be wrong 1 in 20 or 1 in 10 for you to lose money, so that's better than 1 in 50. But it's still asking a lot to pull this off without hitches or marketing awareness catching you. At some point, the question becomes why are you doing this? If you love it and you love demonstrating your expertise, great. If you're trying to sell that it's a great way to make a living.... "

Post 1633, "You're being dishonest here, kewlJ. The degrees of faith required to think your corporate job is here tomorrow versus your promotional AP introductory play is here tomorrow are two entirely different things. Two completely different mathematical estimates. Two different bell curves. Frame it anyway you want. It's interesting. By lumping together the fact that neither is 100% guaranteed, even though they are wildly disparate in likelihood, you are pulling the classic coach belly move. Because something is possible (a corporate failure tomorrow, the next day, next week, etc.), you are giving it equal footing with promotional gambling intro plays, which are quite often ended within 24 hours of being offered. You have copied the coach belly playbook. You realize you just copied him? People in glass houses and all that."

The CDC Gaming Report starts with this:

An expert in casino surveillance, security and operational protection says organized groups are using slot advantage play to take millions from properties across the country, and the problem is only getting worse. Darrin Hoke, who served as a corporate resource for surveillance at Penn Entertainment facilities across the country, took part in core training sessions Tuesday at the World Game Protection Conference. The full program and exhibit floor kicks off Wednesday and Thursday at the Tropicana Las Vegas on the Strip. Hoke focused on electronic game protection in which he discussed the overall slot network design and examined the areas that are the most susceptible to fraud and abuse. He talked about players club schemes, slot advantage play, and internal/external fraud and provided solutions to casinos.

Darren Hoke quotes in the article:

“Slot advantage play has been a big deal over the last few years,” Hoke said. “A lot of the older card counters have transitioned into that. They are opening multiple accounts and getting enrolled into the direct mail program of the casinos so they can get their free play. They come in, and play to a certain level and get the free play coming in and they don’t play again until the next cycle kicks back in about 90 days later. There’s syndicates all over the United States that are making tons of money doing this type of activity. It’s way worse today than it’s ever been. Everybody is getting wise to doing it since they see how profitable it is and understand that the casinos don’t do much about it."

"They’re getting money out of a casino that would otherwise go to a regular player, akin to signing up for an app at a restaurant and not using those points and then the employees will take the points and apply to their accounts to take advantage of the benefits,” Hoke said. “It’s very much the same thing, except they are doing this on a massive scale. In one particular case out of Florida, a group was moving close to $2 billion throughout the United States.”

"You can’t cash out free play for money but what you can do is by leveraging it and not playing any more money at the casino, you’re not risking any more funds. You’re only risking the money the casino sends you. Then you rinse and repeat that every 90 days. You can come back and play to a certain level again and you start to get the offers again.”

"The groups aren’t risking much because when it comes to video poker and playing “a perfect strategy” there’s maybe a 1% house edge."

"The trick of the scheme is not to make another trip using their own money, but to use free play instead."

Redietz criticism of this AP play is well written....but wrong. Perhaps Darren Hoke could persuade redietz to give seminars to AP's on why working the freeplay doesn't work. I would say that it could possibly save the casinos millions of dollars. But the AP's would just laugh in redietz face.

[mickeycrimm]

In his criticism redietz made some wrong mathematical assumptions. This quote here:

"If you want to operate and lay out 35K or 40K for no guaranteed reason on a negative expectation game, that's fine with me."

Well, running a 35K or 40K wager is not the same as "laying out 35K or 40K."

And this quote:

"But you're missing a key strategical issue. If one in 50 of your presumed advantage plays results in your playing and then getting kneecapped by marketing without the assumed advantage, there goes your overall advantage. Then you've become a sucker, not an advantage player."

Actually, you could be wrong 49 times out of 50 and still make money.

[mcap]

Not wrong but….99% sure the exact same guy gave virtually the same surveillance talk at a conference a half decade ago, except he referenced a Washington team rather than Florida that time. Dancer even gave it a column iirc.

[Treeshade]

Not wrong but….99% sure the exact same guy gave virtually the same surveillance talk at a conference a half decade ago, except he referenced a Washington team rather than Florida that time. Dancer even gave it a column iirc.

I stated Before I learned from one the the original OGs of Florida. Not DB he came much later , but he’s one of the biggest around. Probably the master mind of Florida.


Things have already changed and the counter measures being used are ironically just as exploitable. It does however eliminate over half of the guys doing it. But there will always be a way for the creative AP to make money.

[Treeshade]

Actually, you could be wrong 49 times out of 50 and still make money.

[smurgerburger]

Not wrong but….99% sure the exact same guy gave virtually the same surveillance talk at a conference a half decade ago, except he referenced a Washington team rather than Florida that time. Dancer even gave it a column iirc.

You are correct. There was a big panic over this around 2017. Several arrests during that period, no successful prosecutions AFAIK.

[Treeshade]

There are no such loopholes because the casinos have spent millions of dollars on every gambling study imaginable. Much more likely a case of another guy selling a book, or courses, about casino cheating, etc., like Jacobson, who didn't elaborate on the supposed such windfalls by the players. I challenged him, for specifics, at the WoV. So much supposed money, but he was totally unable explain any of it.

Such a relatively low-income pursuit that the casinos can't further optimize their own profits.

God himself could tell you card running is a thing and you wouldn't believe it.

It would actually benefit me if casinos took countermeasures; I don't think most card running guys would be interested in straight up vulture play (in and of itself) and would try to find a better angle than that, so there's that competition gone...lots of them will do vulturing stuff if they're there anyway. Another thing that would happen is you wouldn't have card running teams taking sub-100% must-hits on the grounds that they're presumed better than other slots and you're guaranteed to get some amount of money back.

In any event, this is yet another example of an industry that controls the fucking games, controls the rules and then cries like bitches when someone figures out a way to beat them. How dumb do you have to be to not be able to dictate a game's rules such as to ensure you almost always win? Also, must-hits...almost by design...don't really benefit recreational players at all, in most cases, quite the contrary. Hex and Regal are two other examples of games where recreational players just get fucking pummeled and create decent situations for vultures...or sometimes even card runners depending on the specific setup and bet amounts available.

I don't know why Ocean Magic isn't as popular (at least near me) as it once was, but I'll take a casino having five of those over having ten Hexbreakers. Princess Jasmine's husband also fell out of favor, but I could see where that would be another example of one where casual players just get hopelessly massacred; probably the game based on a popular phone app game, as well.

Rest assured non my peeps have used these games since late 2021. Not because of casino surveillance but because the hustlers who live in the casino started to rat. It becomes a losing situation when you have to evade casino surveillance, and jellyfish hustlers. It’s better to avoid all of these games.

[Treeshade]

O and rent cars

[jdog]

Yeah I don't think that this is much of a news flash. I'm sure lots of properties have been aware of these vulnerabilities and it's a pretty simple matter to see which customers you're not making money on over time. But I think the author is exaggerating a bit, saying a group was moving $2B... 2 billion?? Maybe coin in, but profit in a year, or even a few years... give me a break.

And it's getting more and more difficult to find 99% VP games, they act like they're everywhere?

And how much is slot APing really costing them? Maybe it lowers the perceived RTP so less ploppies play them, but if you had under-performing games, then you'd get rid of them, right? So what's the problem?? It all seems overblown.

Sure if a gaming outfit really wants to reduce freeplay vulnerabilities, they can. But it will ultimately cost them recreational player revenue if they take it too far so I am of the opinion there will always be opportunities for those willing to work hard.

[mickeycrimm]

I suspect the sharper card builders are not playing video poker but rather things like 10K Must Hits, or better yet, high denom Hexes from the 5th level, or Regals at lower numbers that are around breakeven. And probably other games like them.

On Regals most AP's like a yellow 110 or higher because they want a win factor built in. A 110 could be a 10% advantage. But a card builder can cut the other AP's off by taking a lower number that's around breakeven, say a 100 or even 90, maybe even an 85. You'll run a substantial wager on a Regal with an $18.75 bet level.

And when the yellow reaches 121 you can remove the card, then finish the play, to insure the big payoff on the end doesn't get recorded on your coin-in/coin-out. On most plays your coin-in/coin-out will be showing a big loss.

On the 10K's there was a war going on amongst AP's to see who would take the lowest number. Some guys would play as low as 99% to get the mail.