As consumers of gambling information and advice, we need to know the records.

[Count Room]

Vegas_lover: I am just guessing here, but I wonder if you are on the young side of things and maybe you like rap music?

Ludacris

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan, how do you explain the difference in skill when two players missed the green in almost the exact same way yet one had a reasonable shot and the other had an almost impossible shot? What was the difference in skill?

I'm sorry, I can't visualize this example. But from what you say both missed the green. So what's your point? LOL

[jatki]

I do not believe there is any luck in any sport. In the bowling example, the ball is rolling and it is going to either hit the pins or it isn't. If it hits the pins then there's many things that can happen, and whatever does has nothing to do with luck. You threw the ball and try your best, but the result is up to the action occuring afterwards. If you throw the ball and get it into the gutter but it suddenly pops out and strikes, it's all a part of the game you know so well, and most certainly because of the skilled "english" with which you throw the ball.

In golf, no one expects luck to play a part because they know there's so many expected other factors that can and do occur after the ball hits the ground. A hole in one is not luck. A bounce off a tree is not luck. A sudden gust of wind that puts a slice onto the fairway is nothing but one of the many interesting facets of the game that everyone who plays expects every once in a while. Anyone who alls that luck should not be playing the game.

There is no luck in baseball, football, soccer, and so on.

[Alan Mendelson]

Actually its the same in craps, though we use the word "luck." When the shooter throws the dice his action (throwing the dice) has a reaction with everything on the table, including gusts of air, chips on the table, someone knocking the table, wet spots on the felt, etc. There is no luck. The shooter and only the shooter is the reason why the dice landed on hard 6 or six-one.

Luck in video poker? Maybe. You can't influence the RNG. you can make the best possible choice for the cards given to you but ultimately its up to the RNG. You can call that luck, if you like.

[arcimede$]

I do not believe there is any luck in any sport. In the bowling example, the ball is rolling and it is going to either hit the pins or it isn't. If it hits the pins then there's many things that can happen, and whatever does has nothing to do with luck. You threw the ball and try your best, but the result is up to the action occuring afterwards. If you throw the ball and get it into the gutter but it suddenly pops out and strikes, it's all a part of the game you know so well, and most certainly because of the skilled "english" with which you throw the ball.

In golf, no one expects luck to play a part because they know there's so many expected other factors that can and do occur after the ball hits the ground. A hole in one is not luck. A bounce off a tree is not luck. A sudden gust of wind that puts a slice onto the fairway is nothing but one of the many interesting facets of the game that everyone who plays expects every once in a while. Anyone who alls that luck should not be playing the game.

There is no luck in baseball, football, soccer, and so on.

Totally hilarious. I guess it all gets down to what luck is.

BTW, if a ball goes into a gutter and comes out, none of the pins knocked down count. They must be reset when it happens on the first ball and subtracted from the score on either ball.

[Alan Mendelson]

Totally hilarious. I guess it all gets down to what luck is.

BTW, if a ball goes into a gutter and comes out, none of the pins knocked down count. They must be reset when it happens on the first ball and subtracted from the score on either ball.

I'm sorry but what does this have to do with a discussion about luck in sports?

[arcimede$]

I'm sorry but what does this have to do with a discussion about luck in sports?

Alan, did you read what jatki said? He claimed that a ball bouncing off a tree and back into a fairway was not lucky. I guess his definition of skill is much more precise than mine. I rarely try to bounce balls off trees but I guess I just haven't developed enough skill.

[Alan Mendelson]

I thought his explanation was just fine. No luck involved. There are various pros who do these trick shots and its because they have the skill to do it. Perhaps you don't have the skill but if you throw a ball a certain way it will pop out of the gutter. That's not luck -- that's because you threw the ball a certain way.

Now the golf ball. It bounced off the tree and into the fairway because the golfer hit the ball in such a way that it hit the tree and bounced back into the fairway. It's not luck. It's physics, it's geometry.

What is so ironic here is that you, Arc, are accepting the term "luck"???? And you accept luck when everything in your video poker world is defined by the math? Geez. We've come full circle.

[jatki]

Alan, did you read what jatki said? He claimed that a ball bouncing off a tree and back into a fairway was not lucky. I guess his definition of skill is much more precise than mine. I rarely try to bounce balls off trees but I guess I just haven't developed enough skill.

Where I bowl, the auto-scorer always counts pins knocked down if the ball hops out of the gutter. Where did you get that one from?

A tree is part of the open course. If the ball disappeared after hitting the tree, would you call that BAD luck? Not. You'd say it was a terrible shot and the guy had a skill lapse. So why is it GOOD luck if it bounces onto the fairway? You have to be consistent.

[arcimede$]

Where I bowl, the auto-scorer always counts pins knocked down if the ball hops out of the gutter. Where did you get that one from?

The rules of bowling. The scorer does not realize the ball went into the gutter. It's up to knowledgeable and honest players to make the correction. Ask the people at your bowling center what the rule requires.

I've only been bowling for almost 50 years so you might consider trusting me on this one.

A tree is part of the open course. If the ball disappeared after hitting the tree, would you call that BAD luck? Not. You'd say it was a terrible shot and the guy had a skill lapse. So why is it GOOD luck if it bounces onto the fairway? You have to be consistent.

The use of the term luck is a value pronouncement. I hope we can all agree that a ball hit into the trees was not the intent of the golfer. If the ball remains in the trees then that is expected and no value change has occurred. However, if the ball bounces back into the fairway the golfer has now achieved the same value as a skilled shot. He did not earn that value hence the pronouncement of good luck.

Had the ball hit a tree and disappeared down a gofer hole then an even worse result than expected occurred and the golfer could rightly claim it was bad luck.

Luck is simply a value judgement of comparison to an average expected result. Not at all unlike how it is used in gambling.

Since both you and Alan claimed there is no such thing as luck in basketball, tell us what it is when a player has his shot partially blocked only to have it deflect off the backboard and go in the hoop. Was that skill?

[Alan Mendelson]

Arc wrote: Since both you and Alan claimed there is no such thing as luck in basketball, tell us what it is when a player has his shot partially blocked only to have it deflect off the backboard and go in the hoop. Was that skill?

That happened to me many times. What happened was that the force of my drive and shot offset the partial block of the player. Luck wasn't an issue at all. When I made a "flying layup" outside the key (we didn't have three point zones then) I estimated the force I would need to get the ball to the net and my estimate was correct. Two points. All net. The crowd went wild. LOL

EDITED TO ADD: Actually that happened in 9th grade when I made the flying lay up. The defending player said "no way" and the spectators called out "Alan Mendelson Veltidi" because that was something that Alan Veltidi (one of the star athletes at my school) would do. In the locker room after the game Mr Laughlin, our coach, said with a smile "that was quite a dramatic shot," but he was old school and didn't like us to take risky shots.

Anyway Alan V. married Janice and my sister Leslie ran into them at her high school reunion party at the Nanuet Restuarant, and.... LOL.

[Vegas Vic]

Concerning throwing a gutter ball that rebounds into the pins: it must be that Jatki doesn't know that it's possible to change the pin count on an auto scoring system. As a long time bowler and President of our league for about 15 years know, I can tell you he wouldn't get away with not changing his score.

Concerning luck in sports: luck is an integral part of sporting events. It happens whenever intention is altered (whether it's a basketball shot, a baseball hit or a golf shot), and then depending on whether or not you benefited from that alteration, you deem it "good luck" or "bad luck". It's the final outcome that gets labeled.

In VP, luck (good or bad) happens every time we push that button. The initial intention is to have a winning hand. On the draw, with properly applied card selection, we may strengthen our intention to have a winning hand, but the final results are always pure luck.

[arcimede$]

Right you are Vegas Vic. I have a feeling that some of us might have a different definition of "luck" and that is the problem. I don't see how anyone can deny that their are times in almost all sports where the results are better than expected given the situation. Or, the results are worse than expected. I call these good and bad luck. Maybe Alan has another word for them.

[jatki]

I like the part where arc accepts that each push of the videopoker button summons luck of some kind. Good for you for getting that far in the discussion.

[arcimede$]

I like the part where arc accepts that each push of the videopoker button summons luck of some kind. Good for you for getting that far in the discussion.

Summons? Good grief, you really do live in la la land.