Win goal question for Rob.

[arcimede$]

Alan, I'm glad your understand what I've said so far. There is a lot of math that went into the strategy--math which I've offered in the past to share with arci, Frank, and Mike Shackleford along with his genius board of directors from the Wizard's forum,

Well, let's see it. You've now claimed to have math several times and have yet to provide a single item. All anyone can assume is you are lying.

but as you know arci no-showed twice,

Lie.

the Wizard & his people started to set it up then suddenly wanted to charge me thousands to do it, and you know what Frank did. Arci thus has no way out of this quandry but to say it never existed, but he well knows there is neither room for nor is a forum an appropriate place to load up with equations, calculations, and combinational math that no one but me would understand until I sat down to explain it to similarly math-trained minds.

There's one simple way to find out. Post it. I'm sure Alan will provide whatever space you need. Anyone with such a fine tuned, "math-trained mind" shouldn't have any problem doing such a simple task. Here, let me start it out for you.

I can see it now ... "first assume 2+2=13, next: compute the number of people who might believe complete nonsense ..."

[Rob.Singer]

More sour grapes arci. BTW, where's your proof on my slot card scam?

[arcimede$]

More sour grapes arci. BTW, where's your proof on my slot card scam?

You admitted it yourself ... I believe it was over on LVA Sports. Are you now claiming you have NEVER done it?

[jatki]

You say he's done what you're accusing him of, he says he never has, and I gave you the facts about it in the other thread. So, Please stop lying about it and lets see if Singer will OK my going with him to get that important paperwork! I see no point in continuing to make up lies about someone.

[arcimede$]

You say he's done what you're accusing him of, he says he never has, and I gave you the facts about it in the other thread. So, Please stop lying about it and lets see if Singer will OK my going with him to get that important paperwork! I see no point in continuing to make up lies about someone.

What facts? You've provided nothing.

[Rob.Singer]

Arci, is that why you didn't read the other thread first? You've been caught again. Why don't you cut your losses my friend. You have enough challenges in your life.

[arcimede$]

Arci, is that why you didn't read the other thread first? You've been caught again. Why don't you cut your losses my friend. You have enough challenges in your life.

Wrong again. jatki has no facts. But at least he's getting educated. I'll really love it when you find a way to back down from going with him and picking up your imaginary records.

[jatki]

I must have missed where arc provided proof of his winning claims for those 10 years. I must have missed where he provided proof that Singer runs a slot card scam. Or maybe he doesn't understand what the word proof means. Then proof of the one he made up about Singer's inheritance. Or even the one where he claims he's not under any pressure these days. Maybe if I hold a match up to the monitor I'll be able to get that invisible ink to finally work.

Give it up arc, you've been busted so many times and I've only been around a short time.

[Rob.Singer]

I think Alan will probably tear all this stuff down when he returns. At least arci better hope so. I've never seen a grown man either jump up & down like a screaming child trying desperately to get his lies across, or take such a thorough mental beating during that process!

[arcimede$]

I must have missed where arc provided proof of his winning claims for those 10 years. I must have missed where he provided proof that Singer runs a slot card scam. Or maybe he doesn't understand what the word proof means. Then proof of the one he made up about Singer's inheritance. Or even the one where he claims he's not under any pressure these days. Maybe if I hold a match up to the monitor I'll be able to get that invisible ink to finally work.

Give it up arc, you've been busted so many times and I've only been around a short time.

I've offered my tax returns. What more proof do you want? Oh wait, you don't want to know, do you?

You found Singer admitting using his card. What more proof do you want?

You can see Singer stating when he got his inheritance and his bankruptcy is public record (as I already said once).

As for being under pressure ... how much pressure can a retired person have? Since I shot a 75 today it must not be affecting me too much. Oh wait, you won't believe anything I say so that means I really didn't play 18 holes of golf at Meadow Lakes Golf Course this morning (PS. Make sure not to ask Sarah if I was there).

That fact you keep denying these facts means only one thing ... you are nothing but a tool.

[Alan Mendelson]

I do like and agree with your budget analogy though. That may be an excellent portrayal of the meaning behind the final and subsequent tweaking the strategy went thru.

Actually, it's not my analogy. It is something that we learned and studied in formal economics training. I think I mentioned this before, but I had all the credit hours required for a dual major in economics but only lacked the science courses to actually receive a dual major from the Maxwell School at Syracuse. What is an accepted principle of economics is that people will take the actions that best serve them even if it is not a strict (written down) course of action. Call it instinct, if you will, people and busiensses and governments -- and I would even suggest gamblers -- do what is right for them as they assess their own personal situations. Is this foolproof? Of course not. If it were foolproof we would not have involuntary bankruptcies. Voluntary bankruptcies are, like budgeting, a plan for doing what is best in the long term.

Rob, you might not have the data to influence others, but if you determined your data worked for you, then others should not criticize it. They might elect not to accept it because it does not fit their needs -- but that doesn't mean it didn't fit your needs.

Again we come back to something I wrote several times before: If you wrote a book that said "How I beat the casinos" instead of writing "My system can help you beat the casinos" you would be a hero. No one can criticize one person's unique success. And you might have had a unique success that others may also find value in.

In short the controversy is about the packaging of your product and not the product itself.

[Alan Mendelson]

Arc wrote many things that I can disagree with. First he wrote: "You've now claimed to have math several times and have yet to provide a single item. All anyone can assume is you are lying."

I wrote about how things don't have to be written down or provable in order to work. You can accept it or not. I find lots of faults with Rob's system based on my knowledge of video poker, while I also find points I can support. But what worked for him just might not work for the rest of us and vice versa. He might not be lying at all, and just unable to put it down on paper (or on the web) to meet your satisfaction, but that doesn't mean it didn't work for him or that it can't work for someone else.

The rest of us have no way of knowing who lied about what between you too. So please argue about that between the two of you and spare the rest of us. We don't care. Who backed out of what meeting, how many times, is something you two will argue. So Rob this applies to you as well: stop it.

And yes, Rob is welcome to publish his work here if it can be published. I still think it can't be, but that doesn't mean it isn't valid. What it does mean, however, is that it can't be proven. Haven't we all said this before?

[Rob.Singer]

I've offered my tax returns. What more proof do you want? Oh wait, you don't want to know, do you?

You found Singer admitting using his card. What more proof do you want?

You can see Singer stating when he got his inheritance and his bankruptcy is public record (as I already said once).

As for being under pressure ... how much pressure can a retired person have? Since I shot a 75 today it must not be affecting me too much. Oh wait, you won't believe anything I say so that means I really didn't play 18 holes of golf at Meadow Lakes Golf Course this morning (PS. Make sure not to ask Sarah if I was there).

That fact you keep denying these facts means only one thing ... you are nothing but a tool.

When someone needs to keep on repeating the same lies, they realize no one's buying them.

That's pressure arci!

[Alan Mendelson]

I think Alan will probably tear all this stuff down when he returns. At least arci better hope so. I've never seen a grown man either jump up & down like a screaming child trying desperately to get his lies across, or take such a thorough mental beating during that process!

I'm not removing this because the discussion is more about claims of information than about personal attacks and insults. I do wish you'd stop using words like "lie" and "lying" and "lied." I think the discussion would be more civil.

I've never seen Rob admit to some "scam" of using other player's slot cards, though he did admit to it happening once. Heck, I've used my wife's card and my son's card and my son has used my card and my wife has used my card. We've all done it. And on LVA and other Las Vegas Forums there are discussions about exchanging players card to take advantage of various promotions in other cities. Lock us all up in jail.

[Rob.Singer]

Actually, it's not my analogy. It is something that we learned and studied in formal economics training. I think I mentioned this before, but I had all the credit hours required for a dual major in economics but only lacked the science courses to actually receive a dual major from the Maxwell School at Syracuse. What is an accepted principle of economics is that people will take the actions that best serve them even if it is not a strict (written down) course of action. Call it instinct, if you will, people and busiensses and governments -- and I would even suggest gamblers -- do what is right for them as they assess their own personal situations. Is this foolproof? Of course not. If it were foolproof we would not have involuntary bankruptcies. Voluntary bankruptcies are, like budgeting, a plan for doing what is best in the long term.

Rob, you might not have the data to influence others, but if you determined your data worked for you, then others should not criticize it. They might elect not to accept it because it does not fit their needs -- but that doesn't mean it didn't fit your needs.

Again we come back to something I wrote several times before: If you wrote a book that said "How I beat the casinos" instead of writing "My system can help you beat the casinos" you would be a hero. No one can criticize one person's unique success. And you might have had a unique success that others may also find value in.

In short the controversy is about the packaging of your product and not the product itself.

I understand this, and it just may be worth the extra effort someday just to irritate arci even more

[Alan Mendelson]

I shot a 75 today it must not be affecting me too much.

Hmmm.... was that in golf or bowling? (LOL) by the way, I do very well on the windmill hole. I found that if you hit the center of the windmill entrance with a medium swing you're likely to get a hole in one. And with the clown at the 18th hole, again a moderate swing will hit the nose with a -2 on your scorecard.

[Rob.Singer]

Arc wrote many things that I can disagree with. First he wrote: "You've now claimed to have math several times and have yet to provide a single item. All anyone can assume is you are lying."

I wrote about how things don't have to be written down or provable in order to work. You can accept it or not. I find lots of faults with Rob's system based on my knowledge of video poker, while I also find points I can support. But what worked for him just might not work for the rest of us and vice versa. He might not be lying at all, and just unable to put it down on paper (or on the web) to meet your satisfaction, but that doesn't mean it didn't work for him or that it can't work for someone else.

The rest of us have no way of knowing who lied about what between you too. So please argue about that between the two of you and spare the rest of us. We don't care. Who backed out of what meeting, how many times, is something you two will argue. So Rob this applies to you as well: stop it.

And yes, Rob is welcome to publish his work here if it can be published. I still think it can't be, but that doesn't mean it isn't valid. What it does mean, however, is that it can't be proven. Haven't we all said this before?

That's more than fair.

What I plan on doing is give you a completely detailed SPS with all of its nuances, then explain the special plays and why/when they're used. Also, how they mathematically INCREASE game EV when the so-called mathematicians of the game deny anything can. In short, I'll be explaining just why it is that I am not only the most knowledgeable vp personality ever--but the most ingenious and I'll prove that point.

[Rob.Singer]

I'm not removing this because the discussion is more about claims of information than about personal attacks and insults. I do wish you'd stop using words like "lie" and "lying" and "lied." I think the discussion would be more civil.

I've never seen Rob admit to some "scam" of using other player's slot cards, though he did admit to it happening once. Heck, I've used my wife's card and my son's card and my son has used my card and my wife has used my card. We've all done it. And on LVA and other Las Vegas Forums there are discussions about exchanging players card to take advantage of various promotions in other cities. Lock us all up in jail.

Good, but the big difference is in how arci made up that I require others use my card when I train them, then had to take a deep breath and step back from that baloney when jatki called him on it, and right about now he's probably ruing the day he made that false claim on the other forums. In fact, arci's always claimed that my using other's cards was how I made my money and got all the freeplay I've talked about for many years. As has been said, there's one time only that I was ALLOWED to use my card, which was when the student didn't care to get a card so I used mine. That hurts arci. I LIKE IT!

[Alan Mendelson]

I just want to say one more thing about using another player's card: it can't be worth that much. How much is VP play worth even at a $1 or $2 or $5 machine for a couple of hours? Answer is: not much.

[Rob.Singer]

I just want to say one more thing about using another player's card: it can't be worth that much. How much is VP play worth even at a $1 or $2 or $5 machine for a couple of hours? Answer is: not much.

And the majority of my students don't play that high. But let's wait for arci to finish up his watch and we might get some more laughs over this.