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Thread: Playing against a very aggressive bettor in No Limit Hold'em.

  1. #1
    Early this morning I was playing at a $100 no limit hold'em poker table that could have been a case study for how to play against aggressive bettors.

    A player came to our table with about $200 in chips from a broken table (discontinued game) and immediately tried to control the table by making large pre-flop bets and forcing others to abandon their hands.

    He even went "all in" once even as the hold cards were being dealt to each player and as luck would have it his reckless all-in was called by a player with AJ but our "all in player" was dealt JJ and his hand won. Imagine that -- going all-in even as the hold cards were being dealt and being dealt pocket jacks. Amazing.

    He continued to push players out of pots pre flop for more than a half hour -- when he had the cards that allowed him to make big bets of $50 or more -- when the big blind was only $3.

    I knew that there was only one way to play back against this aggressive player, and that was to wait for a big hand. Finally, I got it -- pocket aces.

    This time our aggressive player raised the big blind to $10 and the other four players in the hand folded and the action came to me. With AA as my hold cards, I elected to raise to $20 expecting that "Mr. Aggressive" would re-raise me. He did. His re-raise was $100. At the time I had about $165 in my stack and I re-raised him going all-in.

    "You must have pocket jacks," he said as he turned over A-Q off suit.
    I said nothing and just turned over my two red aces. The board was all small cards, my aces held up and I more than doubled my stack.

    Patience pays off. What I realized was that aggressive players stay aggressive till they suffer a big hit, so you shouldn't rush to challenge an aggressive player with anything but the top hands. The aggressive player will still be there when you get the nuts.

  2. #2
    I hope no one thinks poker is a game of math, and that it doesn't take nearly as much "skill" as video poker.

  3. #3
    So Alan, you waited until you had a mathematical advantage and used that win. Good thinking. Now, if you'd only apply that thinking to VP you might get somewhere.

  4. #4
    As a poker player, I know pocket Aces loses more times than it wins, so right from the start that was not a mathematical advantage.
    Do you play poker arc, or are you doing what you do in videopoker and do what others tell you to do?

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by jatki View Post
    As a poker player, I know pocket Aces loses more times than it wins, so right from the start that was not a mathematical advantage.
    What an idiotic reply. Obviously, you have no idea what a mathematical advantage means. And you think you can discuss math with me? Hilarious.

  6. #6
    Arci, no one can discuss math with you because aside from you not really being very good at it as you portray yourself as being, you always end up spinning its use to suit your warped views. Jatki made a perfectly valid statement regarding pocket A's. You either didn't like it or didn't understand it, based on your being set off so easily about it. POLITICAL REFERENCE DELETED, SAVE IT FOR A POLITICAL THREAD ON THE "OPEN FORUM" BUT NOT HERE You can't expect others to believe you based on your record, so you instead deflect, namecall, and pretend to know-it-all without answering direct questions.

    I know life is hard there these days my friend. But why keep,showing it on your sleeve?
    Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 08-17-2012 at 01:09 PM.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Arci, no one can discuss math with you because aside from you not really being very good at it as you portray yourself as being, you always end up spinning its use to suit your warped views. Jatki made a perfectly valid statement regarding pocket A's. You either didn't like it or didn't understand it, based on your being set off so easily about it.
    I understood it perfectly. If you are claiming his statement was correct then you are right in his class. Completely ignorant. Of course, I already knew your understanding of math was non-existent.

    I even doubt either of you could define what a "mathematical advantage" means ... you guys deserve each other. BTW, have you two set up your date yet? I think jatki wants to be alone with you.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by arcimede$ View Post
    So Alan, you waited until you had a mathematical advantage and used that win. Good thinking. Now, if you'd only apply that thinking to VP you might get somewhere.
    Arc, leaving with a win goal intact is using a mathematical advantage. When the money is yours there is no reason to keep playing the machine to risk giving it back. Remember: you play the game, you don't let the game play you.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by jatki View Post
    As a poker player, I know pocket Aces loses more times than it wins, so right from the start that was not a mathematical advantage.
    Do you play poker arc, or are you doing what you do in videopoker and do what others tell you to do?
    while pocket aces does have a "theoretical advantage" it is one of the most "dangerous" hands to play. In a tournament a year or so ago, I was at the final table and busted out when I went all in with AA. The player who called me, who had a slightly bigger stack, had KQ of diamonds. A king and queen came on the flop, and his two pair beat my one pair of aces.

    AA is no "lock" on winning. I was very lucky the other player had "pushed" with AQ because his only draws were a straight or queens.

    On the flop, by the way, came 99 and a 5. Had he pushed with King-Nine my aces would have been cracked. Had he played pocket fives I would lost to a full house.

    the night before I beat a player with AA with 7 and 8 of hearts (a very powerful hand) when I made a heart flush.

    Playing AA is a very big gamble because you don't have two suited cards to make a flush, the only straight you can win is ace high, and if you make the low straight someone with a 6 can beat you. AA is a highly overrated hand by amateur players -- they fall in love with pocket rockets but never consider how vulnerable they are.

    Our friend Arc has told us he is not a live poker player. He should try it.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Arc, leaving with a win goal intact is using a mathematical advantage. When the money is yours there is no reason to keep playing the machine to risk giving it back. Remember: you play the game, you don't let the game play you.
    Alan, that only works if you never play again. Otherwise leaving and returning is no different than twirling, taking a leak or just continuing to play.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    while pocket aces does have a "theoretical advantage" it is one of the most "dangerous" hands to play. In a tournament a year or so ago, I was at the final table and busted out when I went all in with AA. The player who called me, who had a slightly bigger stack, had KQ of diamonds. A king and queen came on the flop, and his two pair beat my one pair of aces.

    AA is no "lock" on winning. I was very lucky the other player had "pushed" with AQ because his only draws were a straight or queens.

    On the flop, by the way, came 99 and a 5. Had he pushed with King-Nine my aces would have been cracked. Had he played pocket fives I would lost to a full house.

    the night before I beat a player with AA with 7 and 8 of hearts (a very powerful hand) when I made a heart flush.

    Playing AA is a very big gamble because you don't have two suited cards to make a flush, the only straight you can win is ace high, and if you make the low straight someone with a 6 can beat you. AA is a highly overrated hand by amateur players -- they fall in love with pocket rockets but never consider how vulnerable they are.

    Our friend Arc has told us he is not a live poker player. He should try it.
    Alan, everything you said is true ... as far as it goes. The odds of winning with pocket aces against suited KQ is 82%. Sure, you'll lose once in awhile but anyone with any brains at all would rather be holding the aces. This is what "mathematical advantage" means. It doesn't mean you will win every time. It just means you have better chances than everyone else. Over time those improved odds leads to more wins just like playing higher return games in VP leads to better results.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by arcimede$ View Post
    Alan, that only works if you never play again. Otherwise leaving and returning is no different than twirling, taking a leak or just continuing to play.
    That is your belief, Arc. But if you ask any live poker player, or craps player, leaving with a win allows you to take that "profit" and use it the next time you play.

    I left Hollywood Park at 4:30 this morning with about $300 after buying into the $100 table at about 9pm the night before. As players chipped up to three hundred, four hundred and in one case $600 -- they took the money and ran. They will be back to play. These are the "regulars" who actually play poker for a living 12 hours a day.

    They know that leaving with a profit allows them to buy back in the next day with the money they won from the session before. They also had their "win goals" reached.

    By the way, two of those players were also at my "jackpot table" and now we're "best of friends" UNTIL we're playing against each other in a hand.

    One quick story: the guy who left with $600 this morning who was also at my jackpot table, was heads up with me. The flop came AA5. I looked at him and he looked at me. Pre flop I raised to $10 he reraised to $20 and I called.

    We both knew there was jackpot potential again. We checked to the river, there wasn't a third ace -- so no jackpot. He turned over KK. And I turned over KK.

    One of the lighter moments of playing poker.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by arcimede$ View Post
    Alan, everything you said is true ... as far as it goes. The odds of winning with pocket aces against suited KQ is 82%. Sure, you'll lose once in awhile but anyone with any brains at all would rather be holding the aces. This is what "mathematical advantage" means. It doesn't mean you will win every time. It just means you have better chances than everyone else. Over time those improved odds leads to more wins just like playing higher return games in VP leads to better results.
    Arc, what did you do? Go to some poker website and look up the odds? (Yes, there are websites with these odds calculators.)

    For a guy who doesn't play poker, you sure will go to extremes to prove your "math" skills. LOL

    Edited to add: what does your math tell you about this hand: You are holding two red aces and the flop come 9, 7, 10 of spades. What the heck do you do?

    Answer: you pray that no one bets big so that you can see the turn card and if it is also a spade you fold then and there. And even if the turn is not a spade you stop betting because someone might have already made a flush or a straight. Go check a poker calculator for that one. (6,8 suited and 8,J suited are very popular hands to play.)
    Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 08-17-2012 at 01:41 PM.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    That is your belief, Arc.
    No, it has nothing to do with beliefs. It is a proven mathematical fact.

    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    But if you ask any live poker player, or craps player, leaving with a win allows you to take that "profit" and use it the next time you play.
    Which includes the next hand or the next trip. No difference.

  15. #15
    I'm curious, Arc, how does the math account for bluffing in live poker?

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Arc, what did you do? Go to some poker website and look up the odds? (Yes, there are websites with these odds calculators.)
    Yup, why waste time when a program will compute it almost instantly.

    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    For a guy who doesn't play poker, you sure will go to extremes to prove your "math" skills. LOL
    It isn't the answer that is important it is understanding that math applies to these kind of games.

    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Edited to add: what does your math tell you about this hand: You are holding two red aces and the flop come 9, 7, 10 of spades. What the heck do you do?

    Answer: you pray that no one bets big so that you can see the turn card and if it is also a spade you fold then and there. And even if the turn is not a spade you stop betting because someone might have already made a flush or a straight. Go check a poker calculator for that one. (6,8 suited and 8,J suited are very popular hands to play.)
    Actually you still have a 76% change of winning if the opponents KQ is in a different suit.

    Of course, if you don't know what the opponent has it's completely different. For example, if you don't know any of the cards the odds of winning with AA drop from 88% to 68% just by having 4 players betting instead of 2.

  17. #17
    Arci thinks like an old man, you have to give him that. While he's basically disarmed and not really here nor there in his retirement quandry, all he has is the Internet as a friend--one that he can look up just about anything and pretend to be an expert at.

    Alan, his fictitious % vs. pocket aces is very similar to his video poker baloney that he posts. No one can possibly come up with odds of one hand vs. the other without knowing what other cards have already been dealt out. That's what's called absolute math--a concept you'd expect a know-it-all to have a good understanding of. But guess what....

  18. #18
    it's really humorous... here we have someone who probably never played in a live poker game telling us that it all comes down to the math. I can't wait to see the look on his face when he loses at a poker table and wonders what went wrong with the "math." LOL

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I'm curious, Arc, how does the math account for bluffing in live poker?
    It doesn't directly although I suspect a heuristic could be developed that gave pretty good numbers.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    it's really humorous... here we have someone who probably never played in a live poker game telling us that it all comes down to the math. I can't wait to see the look on his face when he loses at a poker table and wonders what went wrong with the "math." LOL
    Nowhere did I say it all came down to math. Where do you get this nonsense? With live poker the math provides the basics. However, there is more to poker than just math. The better you are at those other facets the better you will do.

    There are also other facets to being a successful VP player. One example is scouting. There's no math that gets your butt off the couch and visiting various casinos to see if a good progressive or new game has appeared.

    The most successful players at either live poker or VP know BOTH the math and the non-math facets and try to optimize both.

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