Playing against a very aggressive bettor in No Limit Hold'em.

[Alan Mendelson]

What a ridiculous question. Arc you can't admit you were wrong so you create a diversion. Pitiful.

Well I'll answer your ridiculous question: there is no such thing as a house edge in live poker or tournament poker. All players are equal. There are just good players and not so good players.

Edited to add: I originally respond using my Blackberry while on the road so now some additional info: There is no such thing as an "advantage player" in live poker or tournament poker, because no player has a better "edge." Some players do play better than others but that's not a mathematical edge such as playing a VP game with a better pay table, and using comps or free coffee mugs to increase your theoretical return the way AP's measure their edge.

Wikipedia says you can refer to poker as an opportunity for Advantage Play but this is a real stretch. See the Wikipedia definition here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advantage_gambling It would be more appropriate to call it "smarter play" or "better play" than to use the term "advantage play" since all players at a poker game or tournament are playing with the same edge, and the same pays. There is no different "pay table" playing live poker.

Wikipedia correctly explains that the advantage a player might have in playing live poker is because of skill and not because of the "advantages" that video poker players boast about. From Wikipedia: "Whether a poker player can win enough from the game to cover the rake and make a profit depends not only on the player's skill, but on the opposition's lack thereof...."

I also note this definition of Advantage Player: "An Advantage Player is term coined in gaming circles. Someone who has an advantage that they use over the house is deemed an advantage player" which comes from http://www.trade-ideas.com/Glossary/...ge_Player.html

Gaming Author Frank Scoblete has mentioned Advantage Play in craps (possible but unlikely) and of course in blackjack and machines which include slots and video poker. See http://scoblete.casinocitytimes.com/...e-player-43579

So Arc, I think "advantage play" is something you can continue to claim, and is not something that you will find many poker players claiming. After all, poker players are not playing against the house, and all poker players are on a level playing field. What we get from the house is only an incentive to keep playing there so they can collect fees (rake and tourney fees). The house doesn't care which poker players win.

So yes, Arc, there are far more -- many more "advantage players" in video poker than in live poker. I've never heard the term used before at a poker game.

[arcimede$]

What a ridiculous question. Arc you can't admit you were wrong so you create a diversion. Pitiful.

Nonsense. Let's see your an analysis that proves live poker is more difficult. You don't have one and you never will. It is more subjective, but in general the math itself trivial compared to VP and most players keep to one or maybe two games at most. And even then, most of the math is identical. You are simply not a very competent VP player and hence you don't truly understand the skills required. That's why you think it's a diversion. You are simple out of your league.

So Arc, I think "advantage play" is something you can continue to claim, and is not something that you will find many poker players claiming. After all, poker players are not playing against the house, and all poker players are on a level playing field. What we get from the house is only an incentive to keep playing there so they can collect fees (rake and tourney fees). The house doesn't care which poker players win.

So yes, Arc, there are far more -- many more "advantage players" in video poker than in live poker. I've never heard the term used before at a poker game.

I've talked to poker players that state unabashedly that they have an advantage. Once again your showing your lack of knowledge. Let's face it, anyone that thinks win/loss goals can make a negative game positive is not the sharpest tack in the box.

[Rob.Singer]

Let's see....Alan has played both poker and video poker for years, and arci tells him he's full of nonsense when he explains which game is more difficult. Arci, otoh, has never played a hand of poker, yet not only does he proclaim to know more than Alan about it--he throws in how he "unabashedly knows, what Alan says is untrue.

Hmmm....where've we heard that before? Oh yes--he also happens to "unabashedly know" video poker "AP's who not only lurk on the streets of gambling city USA, but who also win because they say they do....and he says we have to believe him because it's true!

Anyone getting the picture yet?

[Alan Mendelson]

Arc, I am not going to argue with you because you don't know what you are talking about when you talk about live poker. But I will ask you these questions:

1. Can you bluff a video poker machine into thinking your cards are better than the machine's cards?
2. Can you pressure a video poker machine to fold its hand by increasing your bet?
3. Can you beat the hand displayed on the video poker machine because you have a set of eights while the video poker screen displayed a pair of kings?
4. Can you bet even before the cards are dealt to force the video poker machine to fold?
5. You have a good hand, but can you also convince up to 9 other players that your hand is also better than their hands?
6. Can you know when to fold your hand in video poker and get your money back when your cards are not good enough to play?
7. Can you know when to fold your hand in video poker to save your money for future betting?
8. Can you intentionally fool the video poker machine into thinking you play weak cards to set the machine up for a kill later when you have good cards? (One of the greatest art forms of a good player.)

Sure there are live poker players who think they have an "advantage" because they will tell you they play better and smarter. But it is not the "advantage" we discuss when in video poker talk we discuss playing optimum strategy, cash back, free play, promotions, double points, pay tables, etc.

Please don't go off the deep end trying to prove your point here. Anyone -- repeat anyone -- who plays live poker knows it is a much more complex game than video poker can ever be.

[arcimede$]

More silly nonsense from a person that doesn't have a clue about mathematics. The comparisons you make don't come close to the potential for hundreds of unique cases that have to be memorized to play VP correctly. Do you really want me to list every strategy play for a game like DB? I don't think it would take long to get past your 8 skills.

Look, I'm not arguing that their aren't skills involved in poker. However, Alan doesn't understand VP well enough to make a comparison. He has proved that over and over again right here. Anyone that would fall for Singer's silly system is clearly not able to make rational arguments about VP. It really doesn't get any simpler than that.

And you'd think holdem some kind of complex game. Most of the decisions are easy, up front mathematical choices. If one stays with those they will get by most of the time. The others are less important but can give a player an even larger edge once he masters them. However, a player with no knowledge of the math is doomed.

[Rob.Singer]

Up front mathematical choices? I'd like to see the person who never provides support for any of his claims, to,support that moronic statement.

[arcimede$]

Up front mathematical choices? I'd like to see the person who never provides support for any of his claims, to,support that moronic statement.

Any moron can find the mathematical tables for holdem on the web. What does that make you?

[Rob.Singer]

Arci, you said most of the decisions are upfront mathematical choices. You ain't close to being right. Analyzing the game when you see every card is easy. Players don't know what cards have been dealt other than their own, so they cannot make anything close to,an "upfront mathematical choice.

If you played the game instead of thinking you're gonna impress anyone by looking it up on the Internet, you might have a clue. I guess that must be one area where "tested geniuses" aren't tested.

[Rob.Singer]

Alan, how about ABB having a poker game weekend for members?

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan, how about ABB having a poker game weekend for members?

It's interesting you suggested that. A few months ago I asked several software companies about the price of offering a poker/casino games package here. It would of course be totally free, for-fun play. But several of the companies said they would not license their software because of commitments to big casinos, and the ones that would had a very high fee that just put it out of the ballpark for me.

I used to play on a free poker site (maintained by a Vegas casino) but a few months after signing up (and giving my cell phone number) my cell phone account was hit with hundreds of dollars of charges for services I did not order. I finally had to go to the California Public Utilities Commission when my own cell phone company refused to remove the charges or even prevent future charges. The cell phone company provided me contact phone numbers and websites for the companies making the charges and the websites and phone numbers didn't work and the charges continued for several months. Finally, facing pressure from the Calif PUC my cell phone company removed the charges and blocked future charges.

So, since then I've looked around for some low cost software that I could run.

Commerce Casino here in LA has a "bring your home game here" deal where you can reserve one table or several tables and play your game with a dealer, food service, etc., or you can host your own tournament there. Over the last couple of years I helped to promote the Renal Support Network's annual fund raising poker tourneys which have been held at Commerce.

[Alan Mendelson]

Players don't know what cards have been dealt other than their own, so they cannot make anything close to,an "upfront mathematical choice.

Rob is absolutely correct about this which is another reason why live poker is a much more complex game. It is not what you see on TV or the Internet where the other players cards are known. When you are sitting at the table the "math" you have to figure has more Xs and Ys than real cards. You literally have to sit there and think, does he have a K or a 2? Does he have two spades? If he does have two spades are they lower than my two spades? Then you start to analyze the bet or were you just called or rerairsed.

Let me give you a real example of a hand I played in Saturday night.

I am holding K8 offsuit in the big blind at a $100 buy in table. K8 is a mediocre hand. Normally you don't play K8 but my $3 big blind had already been put in. One player raised to $10, and three more players called the $10, so there was now $45 in the pot and the action came to me. I called the $10 bet by adding $7 to my big blind. There is now $52 in the pot. I called the $10 raise because adding $7 game me good odds -- adding $7 for a potential of winning the $45 in the pot. Next...

Next came the flop... 6, 7, 8 rainbow meaning the cards were not suited and I didn't have to fear a flush. I was first to act, and I bet $40 which was less than the pot, to "test the table." I wanted to test the table to see if anyone flopped a straight or had a bigger pair or a set or two pair. The player who first raised shoves a rack of chips into the pot (rack is $100), and the rest of the players folded. The action came back to me and I said "you must have big cards." My $40 bet gave me the information I needed, and I folded.

Now, the question is why did I bet $40? Well, if I bet something small such as $10, everyone would have called, because everyone already had $10 in the pot. So another bet of $10 would have been a waste of money, would have gotten me zero information, and left me vulnerable to having to call a raise for more money. I needed to make a substantial bet to indicate I had something "worthwhile" and that's why I made it $40. The player who shoved $100 in signaled he did have something substantial. And he did. He had AA.

You might say why didn't I check instead of betting $40? Well, checking would allow some other player or players to bet and reraise and could have made the hand even more expensive for me to get the information I needed. Also a smaller bet would allow someone with a 5 or a 9 to stay in the pot longer to complete their straight.

Arc there is a lot more than just math playing live poker.

edited to add: I should have mentioned that at the time this hand was played, I had about $380 in chips, so using $40 as a test made sense -- so I would not risk losing my entire stack.

[arcimede$]

Arci, you said most of the decisions are upfront mathematical choices. You ain't close to being right. Analyzing the game when you see every card is easy. Players don't know what cards have been dealt other than their own, so they cannot make anything close to,an "upfront mathematical choice.

The usual mental midget response.

You know the odds that your cards are a winning combination. That alone gets you started. You don't have to know what is missing to make a good decision. You're not going to see most of the deck no matter what. Most of what Alan stated is just as likely to confuse a player as help him.

BTW, have you and jatki set up your date yet to go get those papers? I'm sure Alan is getting restless. Also, you never told anyone why you left AZ. You used to constantly mention how important it was to be close to your family. Now, you move to Pahrump .... hmmmm, seems a little strange.

[Alan Mendelson]

You know the odds that your cards are a winning combination. That alone gets you started. You don't have to know what is missing to make a good decision.

Wow, you couldn't be more wrong.

You are approaching live poker as if it were video poker. The issue isn't if your cards are a winning combination. The issue is whether or not your winning combination is better than someone else's winning combination.

Arc, you could be sitting in a poker game and in one hand two or more players could have a flush, but only one player wins. You could be in a game and you have a straight and someone else has full house.

Your winning combination means nothing. You have to decide if someone else might have a better winning combination of cards.

Go buy into a $40 game (total investment $40) and just sit there, pay your blinds ($2 and $1 or about $3 every ten minutes) and look at your cards and just observe what happens. Make no bets. You are there only to observe what happens. Then come back and tell us what you discovered.

[Alan Mendelson]

Arc, this is for you. Let's play a game of live poker and four players are active in the hand:

Player 1 has AA
Player 2 has A3
Player 3 has QQ
Player 4 has JQ

The flop comes 3 3 Q. Who will win the hand?

Player 1 thinks his pocket aces will win because he doubts anyone will play a 3 and wouldn't have a set.
Player 2 has flopped trips with an Ace kicker and he thinks he's sure to win.
Player 3 has flopped a full house, with his set of queens combined with the pair of 3s.
Player 4 has two pair, 3s and Qs with a Jack kicker which is pretty good.

The turn card is a J. And our player #4 now feels confident that he has a better hand with two strong pairs -- Jacks and Queens. The other players are not affected.

The River is the case Ace. Now the game changes. The winning hand now is Player 1 with Aces full of threes, which beats Player 2 who has Threes full of Aces.

Want some alternate endings:
How about if the River card was the case 3 for quads for Player 2.
Or the River card is another J giving Player 4 a full house with Jacks over Queens, which by the way still loses to the full house of Queens over threes.

[arcimede$]

Wow, you couldn't be more wrong.

You are approaching live poker as if it were video poker. The issue isn't if your cards are a winning combination. The issue is whether or not your winning combination is better than someone else's winning combination.

No duh. Alan, you are just as confused at poker as you are at VP.

Arc, you could be sitting in a poker game and in one hand two or more players could have a flush, but only one player wins. You could be in a game and you have a straight and someone else has full house.

Your winning combination means nothing. You have to decide if someone else might have a better winning combination of cards.

Go buy into a $40 game (total investment $40) and just sit there, pay your blinds ($2 and $1 or about $3 every ten minutes) and look at your cards and just observe what happens. Make no bets. You are there only to observe what happens. Then come back and tell us what you discovered.

Alan, you don't get it at all. Why am I not surprised you have little understanding of poker maths.

[arcimede$]

Arc, this is for you. Let's play a game of live poker and four players are active in the hand:

Player 1 has AA
Player 2 has A3
Player 3 has QQ
Player 4 has JQ

The flop comes 3 3 Q. Who will win the hand?

Player 1 thinks his pocket aces will win because he doubts anyone will play a 3 and wouldn't have a set.
Player 2 has flopped trips with an Ace kicker and he thinks he's sure to win.
Player 3 has flopped a full house, with his set of queens combined with the pair of 3s.
Player 4 has two pair, 3s and Qs with a Jack kicker which is pretty good.

The turn card is a J. And our player #4 now feels confident that he has a better hand with two strong pairs -- Jacks and Queens. The other players are not affected.

The River is the case Ace. Now the game changes. The winning hand now is Player 1 with Aces full of threes, which beats Player 2 who has Threes full of Aces.

Want some alternate endings:
How about if the River card was the case 3 for quads for Player 2.
Or the River card is another J giving Player 4 a full house with Jacks over Queens, which by the way still loses to the full house of Queens over threes.

Alan, don't confuse a single hand with long term math. That is just plain silly. In your "deal" situation the pocket aces will win more than any of the other hands. You should bet that way. Just because you lose at times does not change the math. I'm not saying one shouldn't utilize all available knowledge, but you should also realize that it's just as easy to fool yourself as it is to make correct calls. In fact, it's probably easier.

[Alan Mendelson]

Just the other night I beat AA with 7 and 8 of hearts giving me a Jack-high flush. Arc, you are simply... well, I'm not going to say anymore.

But I will say this. When your money is in the pot, the long term doesn't matter. It's what you have in the pot. And in tournament play there is no long term. Once you bust out, you're out.

[arcimede$]

Just the other night I beat AA with 7 and 8 of hearts giving me a Jack-high flush. Arc, you are simply... well, I'm not going to say anymore.

But I will say this. When your money is in the pot, the long term doesn't matter. It's what you have in the pot. And in tournament play there is no long term. Once you bust out, you're out.

Alan, you once again make the mistake of confusing a single hand with odds. I can see there's little hope for you. You simply can't get past the one hand view of the world. Until you do you will never understand what I'm telling you.

[Rob.Singer]

Alan, he has never played poker yet he knows more than you about it. Plus he made a stupid comment that he probably really thought was part of his "tested genius" claim, that a player knows his mathematical chances, as if he were playing against a machine, by looking at his first two cards without knowing what other cards were dealt! Hahahaha!! We know he copies and pastes things straight from the Internet, but this time he didn't even come close to getting it! What's that tell you. Right, he'll just keep calling you names because he's seen you'll keep him busy with responses, and DELETED Ouch! It's almost too much for me to even THINK about. At least when I look into my wife's eyes, I see a content smile....like this one!

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob, Arc's posts only show a lack of knowledge of playing poker.

Arc: Here's a hand that I've seen occur many times virtually every year that I've played:

You have two red aces, Ace of hearts and the Ace of diamonds. You made a big preflop bet but you still have three other players in the hand. The flop comes:

Ten of spades, 9 of spades, 8 of spades.

You are last to act with your two red aces.
The first player bets the pot size.
The second player bets double the pot size.
The third player calls the bet of double the pot size.

The action comes to you. What do you do?

Let's see what the math tells you?