I decided to play for a modest win goal.

[Alan Mendelson]

Wednesday night I drove to Caesars for a quickie overnight trip and to take advantage of $2500 of free play. I decided that I would cash out with a minimum of $2,000 playing 7/5 bonus or 8/5 bonus. 7/5 was available at the $1 and $2 level, 8/5 was available at the $5 level.

Very simply, I was going to run play through each of the five $500 coupons I got and see what happens.

First $500 coupon: cashed out $505
Second $500 coupon: cashed out $570

No big hands on the first two that I played at $1 7/5 Bonus. By the way, Caesars does have Aces Bonus where quad aces = the payout on a royal, but at Caesars its a 6/5 pay table so I didn't play it.

Now, with $1,075 or more than half of my win goal, I decided to get a little bold and for the next $500 coupon I moved up to $2 7/5 bonus.

Third $500 coupon: cashed out $625.

I still had two $500 coupons left. I had locked up $1705 and decided to go for the gusto at 8/5 Bonus at the $5 level. Here's where I ran into a roadblock.

Caesars has replaced some of the video poker machines in the "small dome" high limit room to a new version of Game King machines. Same pay tables, but these machines are not yet programmed to accept free play. That means there is only one 8/5 $5 Bonus machine in all of Caesars Palace that will accept free play coupons -- and it's in the Palace Court high roller slots room.

I inserted the two remaining $500 free play coupons and lightning struck. I have to call it lightning because after a couple of small wins, I held a Q with no other high cards and on the draw I got quad aces. If that ain't lightning, what is? It paid $2,000 of course. The cash went into my pocket less a $20 tip.



I now had a profit on the trip of a bit more than $3,000 plus still had credits in the machine which had to be played through. I could not cash out free play credits.

Of that amount, I cashed out about $600 and went to play craps.

Craps is usually my downfall, but this time I got lucky, and actually had a $700 profit at craps. This time, I stuck with my plan of betting the passline plus the firebet. No one hit enough numbers to get a firebet payoff, but I had a half-decent roll and another shooter had a half-decent roll where I decided to bet a normal spread and managed to make a small profit.

Went to breakfast, took a shower, got in the car, and drove home enjoying my win, and a victory over temptation to play some more.

[Rob.Singer]

Now that's more like it! Don't you still have one more of those offers left? And thanks for the picture of those Aces--it brings back fond memories of the time that happened to me on $10 TBP+. I laughed out loud when the four of them popped up after holding a Jack.

Discipline, determination, and pre-set goals: the ONLY way to consistently beat the edge the casinos always have over all of us.

[Alan Mendelson]

This was the last of the offers through the end of August. I just looked at the offers for September and October, and they have been cut. In September the free play was cut to $1500 and in October it is cut again down to $1,000.

[arcimede$]

I wonder what Singer would have said about "discipline" if you had lost 2 grand playing craps. I guess as long as you win it's all good but if you lose you were a bad boy.

[arcimede$]

Discipline, determination, and pre-set goals: the ONLY way to consistently beat the edge the casinos always have over all of us.

Silly nonsense. If the casino has the edge then you won't beat them over time. The ONLY way to "consistently beat" casinos is to have the edge yourself. Clearly, when Alan is playing on freeplay he will have the edge at that moment. What's lost in this conversation is what amount of losses did Alan accrue in generating this much freeplay. Most casinos do not give away thousands of dollars for nothing. So, to really understand how Alan did we would need to understand his play that led to this freeplay.

[Rob.Singer]

I know he's lost because he said he did. The casinos will also give out the same amount of freeplay if he had won, because that's been my experience. So why do you seem to only want to believe he has lost? Do you hate winners that much? Hmmm....who does that.

And to correct your lie again, a casino edge can be overcome by any player who knows what they're doing in any individual session. There is no "long term" for the player.

[Alan Mendelson]

The way I understand the free play system, it's a function of coin in and not losses with Caesars/Harrahs. The same is true with comps. If you don't have the play, you don't earn the total reward comps/points.

I'm not sure how much of a video poker "loser" I will be this year. I went to Rincon last night with $165 of free play and a few hundred dollars of cash. I started with $1 8/5 Bonus which I built up to a comfortable level so that I could play $5 8/5 Bonus and had a nice little run of quads and then hit this:



So, I took Rob's advice this time, and instead of staying on $5 8/5 Bonus I moved down to $2 8/5 Bonus on the same machine. I thought I would "kill some more time" when I started to have a nice run and hit this:



I took a check for the full amount of the royal and still had money left so I switched back to $5 8/5 Bonus and soon hit this:



I took a check for the full amount of that one, too, and then decided to go play some 8/5 Aces and Faces in another section of the casino. But then I thought about playing 8/5 Ace$ Bonus. At Rincon it has an 8/5 Pay Table just like Bonus and Aces and Faces, but the quad Aces if they come in order A-C-E-S or S-E-C-A pays the same as a royal. Well, I missed the magic combination when I got these quads:



And yes, I took a check for the full amount of that also. I also hit quad 4s and quad 2s and played for another hour or so on that money. On the way home I deposited $12K in the bank, and I still have my original cash. You just got to love those negative expectation machines.

[Rob.Singer]

I love this story Alan, because you didn't say you had a win goal and you locked up various handpays. Also, how often was it that arci keeps claiming Aces come up....HOW many times has he said you can't win on negative machines? Of course, if this were him--and we know it has never been or will never be because his bankroll is as small as his eh-em closed mind--he be hootin' and hollerin' about how he created POSITIVE games out of these after adding in slot club freebies and smiles from his casino host DELETED

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob, that was Royal #6 for this year. Here's the tally:

1 @ $20,000 (Rincon)
2 @ $8,000 (Caesars and Rincon)
2 @ $4,000 (Rincon)
1 @ $4,000+ (small progressive at Rincon)

I could also add in the fringes-- all of the coin in goes toward comp points which I use to pay for dinners, Shell gas cards, and will add up for the Great Gift Wrap Up. I already have more than 400K GGWU points which is good for more than about $1200 in gas cards, plus my play at Rincon will be "rewarded" with free play in following months.

[jatki]

In any universe, as an advantage player or whatever player, you could easily claim you were ahead for the year due to all the variable values you could place on a number of items you get from those places. But what? A negative ev machine player being ahead? I'm getting mixed up. You could easily say you are an AP, just as easily as I've seen ap's on LV A rip players apart who say they played a negative machine and won. In steps the Singer phantom bucks argument in reverse. Alan, hold on tight and sit down. You did not really win anything and what you deposited into that bank might as well be worthless paper. For, if you were playing on 99.99% machines, you lost money on every hand you played!

Isn't the ap argument grand? Congratulations on trying to win something anyway.

[Rob.Singer]

In any universe, as an advantage player or whatever player, you could easily claim you were ahead for the year due to all the variable values you could place on a number of items you get from those places. But what? A negative ev machine player being ahead? I'm getting mixed up. You could easily say you are an AP, just as easily as I've seen ap's on LV A rip players apart who say they played a negative machine and won. In steps the Singer phantom bucks argument in reverse. Alan, hold on tight and sit down. You did not really win anything and what you deposited into that bank might as well be worthless paper. For, if you were playing on 99.99% machines, you lost money on every hand you played!

Isn't the ap argument grand? Congratulations on trying to win something anyway.

I would have said it slightly different, and some of it would surely end up DELETED, but this is TOO FUNNY!

[arcimede$]

Also, how often was it that arci keeps claiming Aces come up....HOW many times has he said you can't win on negative machines?

Never. Once again we see Singer lies constantly.

[arcimede$]

The way I understand the free play system, it's a function of coin in and not losses with Caesars/Harrahs. The same is true with comps.

Is it based on play over a certain period? Is this current freeplay based on your play the previous quarter? Or longer?

On the way home I deposited $12K in the bank, and I still have my original cash. You just got to love those negative expectation machines.

It's called variance. It's kind of amusing watching team nonsense get all excited about one good day. You realize that if this was me making these comments Singer and jatki would be moaning about how I haven't mentioned any of my losses lately.

It is nice when you have a day like that, however I can still remember Alan moaning about his poor luck last year and all those long months without a royal. As I've always said, VP is a game of streaks. It's real nice when you are riding with a good one. Hope you can keep it going, Alan.

[Rob.Singer]

That's funny arci. Now do tell: how long before that math you think runs vp, reaches up and snatches the money right out of his hands!?

[arcimede$]

That's funny arci. Now do tell: how long before that math you think runs vp, reaches up and snatches the money right out of his hands!?

Probably not all that long. Streaks rarely last for very long ... both good and bad. Works that way on both positive and negative games. The only difference is where you end up when it begins to average out.

Of course, it's pretty likely that even with this good day Alan is still behind overall playing negative games. Funny how that works out.

[arcimede$]

You did not really win anything and what you deposited into that bank might as well be worthless paper. For, if you were playing on 99.99% machines, you lost money on every hand you played!

So, let's ask Alan how he's doing lifetime playing negative machines. I have a feeling he didn't deposit a cent in the bank. All he did was return a small portion of the money he has previously lost to the casinos. Of course, that means he really has lost money on every hand he has ever played.

I get a kick out of the lack of critical thinking that goes into idiotic comments like jatki continuously makes. He just perfectly highlighted the basic math argument that APers utilize. Thanks, tool.

Isn't the ap argument grand?

Absolutely. That's why whenever I deposit my winnings in the bank (such as my $2K win yesterday) it really is winnings.

[Rob.Singer]

Arci, jatki knows your act and your BS, and when you couldnt't get anything past him you brought out the namecalling. Looks like he's still getting on your nerves though! Good goin' jat!

Let's see....I played mostly negative games, I won all the time and overall, I still have played only negative games since retiring, and I STILL win regularly when I play!

Yes, funny how that always seems to work out

[Alan Mendelson]

Arc, the free play offers are determined either after a quarterly or a semi-annual basis.

Rincon's free play offers are separate from the Caesars/LV offers.

Rincon earlier this year lowered everyone's free play offers to save money -- this was done at the same time they made that controversial move to lower pay tables.

My offers from LV go down by about 40% to 60% (depending on the event) starting in September. I don't know if its because business gets better and they don't have to offer as much to get players in, or if it had something to do with less play in LV and more of my play at Rincon? I sent an email to my host who is on vacation until after Labor Day.

Even in the years when I lost money playing VP, I didn't lose that much. In fact, I was right where the paytables said I should be on those 9/5 DDB progressives and 8/5 Aces and Faces games. It was craps that was a killer.

I've been playing craps for about 15 years, and only four times in 15 years did I ever walk away from a craps table with a profit of $5K or more, and only once was the profit slightly north of $10k. (My latest big win was when I hit 5/6 fire bet points for the $2500 pay on the $10 fire bet a few weeks ago.) I can't begin to tell you how many times I lost my entire trip bankroll playing craps.

So my point is even playing a 99% negative expectation game in video poker, you really don't lose that much. Even when I had my 170-thousand hand drought of royals I still didn't lose that much.

Arc, you make it seem that someone who plays a 99% game is going to lose a car or a house every time they sit down to play. You don't. There were many trips when I came home with ten or fifteen or more W2Gs in my pocket and a small net loss. It was those intermediate wins that kept me grinding away at the machine hoping for a royal.

[Rob.Singer]

Alan, you'd think someone who professes to know so much about math would understand and agree to the fact that, since the difference between a +EV game & a negative one is so tiny, actual results can very easily be much different than what pure theory predicts. The problem with the crazies seems to be an overly incessant need of how a neurotic adherence to the math is an absolute....and if it swayed or someone makes an argument for why what they chose to hold at the machines was the reason for the positive sway, it just does not compute, because common sense is not a part of the formula they've talked themselves into strictly believing in.

Arci keeps trying to figure out what I mean when I say "beyond the math" and he's banging his head on the wall over it. Well, because he couldn't look it up on the Internet then to him it does not exist, yet it is real to so many others. He is such a funny personality study that I compare him to a Food Network TV cook, who's absolutely lost if he swayed one iota away from what his recipe from the book calls for. And all the while, there's good 'ol Justine Wilson, tossing in all the ingredients without ever measuring anything--and his dishes always came out perfectly. Definitely, that's not arci. No ingenuity, no innovation, and he thinks only the way the book says to do it has got to be the best way. That's another reason we always felt comfortable locking the geeks and nerds away whenever the customers visited. Doing....not thinking....was always their forte'. And every one of them that I can remember has always ended up alone, a loner, or feeling like one.

[Alan Mendelson]

Rob, I have to agree with you on this point: Does a difference of a half of one percent on a pay table make the difference between winning or losing playing video poker? No, what makes you win is getting more winning hands, not the pay table.