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Thread: The more you play, the smaller the offers.

  1. #1
    I've come to a conclusion when it comes to Caesars properties in Las Vegas and how they hand out "incentive offers" to get you to visit:

    The more you play, the smaller the offers become.

    Recently I was getting some pretty attractive free play and gift offers, and I used them. Then when my offers for September and October came in, the amounts were dramatically reduced -- by as much as 60%.

    In Tuesday's mail, I received the free play offer for October -- also down 60% from what I was receiving over the summer. At the same time, my wife got a free play offer for October. My wife hasn't been to Vegas in more than six months, and her offer increased by 10% from previous offers and was 55% of my current, reduced offer.

    Clearly, the marketing folks at Caesars have me pegged as "he will return no matter what, so we can reduce his offer." While they say "she needs a little more incentive to return, so we'll try a little more free play or gift money and see if that works."

    Well, they've got it wrong.

    I'm not going to make the trip for the smaller free play offer, or the smaller gift offers. And the extra 10% for her won't get her to go either.

    One of the benefits of playing at local casinos here in California is that offers and cash back and free play are based on your actual play. So, I will stick around here in So Cal where I do not have to invest an overnight or weekend trip for the free play or gifts I get locally.

  2. #2
    Well, I heard from my host at Caesars about why my "offers" were downgraded. There was no comment about why Shelley's offers were "upgraded" even though she hasn't been there in more than six months.

    It seems that I am not gambling "enough." What's more, they've determined that I am not gambling enough based on the number of three and four days visits I've had there over the last year. I usually take advantage of "offers" that include three or four day stays. But, I've never stayed at Caesars for longer than a weekend -- usually arriving late Friday night after work (around midnight or even later), and departing early Sunday. It seems that my play during that compressed time span -- usually no more than about 36 hours -- is measured over a three day or four "offer package." So instead of appearing to have a "lot of play for 36 hours" my play during the 36 hours is "averaged down" by a three day stay, or a four day stay.

    This is a problem with "computer programs." Instead of looking at actual play for actual time in a casino the "computer" or "program" looks at how much play there should have been over a much longer period of time -- and that's time I wasn't there. So I get penalized.

    In reality, I give a lot of "action" in a very short time span. But the system doesn't see it that way, at all.

    This reminds me of another incident from several years ago. Please read on:

    I had a good "craps buddy" with a $25,000 "trip budget." (And that's a very healthy budget, and far and away anything I've ever bet at a craps table!!) He was a regular at Caesars and enjoyed full RFB or room, food and beverage -- and was comped for everything. Usually he would arrive on Friday, and depart on Sunday, spending hours at craps every day with his $25K bankroll.

    Well, one weekend my friend ran into a lot of bad luck very quickly at craps, and his $25,000 bankroll instead of lasting all three days of his trip was wiped out early on his first day of play. With no more "gambling money" he spent the rest of his weekend at Caesars and Las Vegas enjoying the shows, sightseeing, hanging out at the pool, etc. Things hotel guests and Vegas visitors are supposed to do.

    However, when it came to check out time, he was informed that he would not be "comped" for the weekend. Why? Because he didn't have the expected four hours of craps play (action) each day. It didn't matter, he was told, that he lost his $25,000 bankroll as soon as he got there. What mattered is that he didn't play for four hours a day.

    Does that strike you as a bit absurd also? Well he was furious and before checking out he spent time bouncing around management offices to get his normal weekend charges comped.

    By the way, I never saw him again at Caesars after that trip.

  3. #3
    I've always thought that casinos using trip or daily averages were stupid. One more example to prove the point.

    Although it can be difficult for table games, for slots and VP the actual coin-in is known as well as the win/loss. Why would they use anything different?

  4. #4
    I heard from my host today, who got an explanation from the marketing department. Indeed, my "drop in visits" where I only played for a couple of hours, were used to dilute my "trip average." I was given several particular dates where my "play" was below average.

    One of the days was for the Great Gift Wrap Up in November of 2011. That's when I drove up, played a few hours, got my gifts, and drove back. They actually used that to dilute my average play and my current offers.

    Another of the days used to dilute my average play was when I left with a profit. It didn't matter that my coin-in or average bet was above average for that trip (and it was) -- what mattered, apparently, was that I left with a net win. So forget about comps being based on "theoretical loss," because now I have confirmation that "theoreticals" don't matter and only the actual loss does matter.

    And a third date that was supplied by "marketing" to show that I had "low play" was actually a day with a lot of play. But again, it was a day where I had a very small loss. I took out thousands of dollars of markers during the visit -- paid them all off -- and had a loss of only a few hundred dollars. Despite all of the play involved, again it didn't count because of the small "actual loss."

    I also pointed out my tier score and the amount of coin in or average bet required to get that kind of tier score. I told my host that instead of cutting my offers, the marketing department should be "kissing my ass."

  5. #5
    I just wanted to give you an update.

    On September 12th, when I made the post above, I also sent an email to my host with "my side" of how Marketing interpreted my play. My post above is a summary of what I sent to my host. I asked that my host forward my comments to Marketing to get a response.

    Well, here it is on October 4th and I never heard from Marketing. I also never even heard from my host.

    It's bad enough not hearing back from Marketing. It's worse when you don't even hear back from your own host.

    I guess I don't mean much at Caesars or to my host. I guess this year's current tier score in excess of 350-thousand also doesn't mean much even though that's the equivalent of 7-Stars more than three times over.

    I guess they don't want my business again at 3570 Las Vegas Boulevard South.

  6. #6
    Hi Alan

    I feel the same way about my current offers. This summer I frequented Vegas quite a bit. However, I have not visited Vegas since the middle of August and it is now October. Well guess what??? I have $300 of table game vouchers waiting for me at Caesars Palace; lol how convenient. Furthermore, all of my enticing offers for Vegas are now coming in: Macys Gift Card, BlackJack Tourneys, Poker Tourneys, Shows, etc. Very frustrating stuff to the least as I don't plan on making a trip to Vegas in the fall due to my work schedule. I really am considering switching brands but I just heard Mlife got stingier with their comps! What is a modest gambler to do? I think I may take up another hobby...

  7. #7
    Interesting side note. I used to go to Caesars 6 or 7 times a year, full RFB and airfare. I played only craps--no video poker or anything else except to kill a little time I would play blackjack for $25 for a short time. My average initial bet in craps is about $550.

    So when it's time to leave, my host(ess) tells me my average bet was a little low. How can that be--$550 and up at craps is way over what is required. She said my $25 BJ was reducing my average, even tho I was way over 4 hours per day in craps. She told me in the future don't give them my players card for BJ. I said you are supposed to earn points for every dollar in--why should that hurt me. No answer but to maintain my high average bet for their purposes I couldn't get credit for smaller BJ play.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    Interesting side note. I used to go to Caesars 6 or 7 times a year, full RFB and airfare. I played only craps--no video poker or anything else except to kill a little time I would play blackjack for $25 for a short time. My average initial bet in craps is about $550.

    So when it's time to leave, my host(ess) tells me my average bet was a little low. How can that be--$550 and up at craps is way over what is required. She said my $25 BJ was reducing my average, even tho I was way over 4 hours per day in craps. She told me in the future don't give them my players card for BJ. I said you are supposed to earn points for every dollar in--why should that hurt me. No answer but to maintain my high average bet for their purposes I couldn't get credit for smaller BJ play.
    That sounds like typical casino reasoning, and something that is absolutely unfair to players. After all, you are supposed to play with your card all the time, as each bet theoretically adds to your comp balance, Great Gift Wrap Up, and tier score.

    By the way, $550 initial bet is very high. For those who don't play craps let me explain:

    At a $25 minimum bet table, if you bet $25 on the pass line with full odds your total is $100, $125 or $150. Now, if you add five numbers in addition to the passline and odds, you have either another $130 or $135. Add up the passline and numbers and that's a total between $235 and $280 at risk for a $25 (green chip player). For someone to have an initial bet of $550 means significantly higher betting.

    Back in the old days before Total Rewards, if you had an average bet of just $135 you got full RFB. An average starting bet of $550 made you a king, especially since this is a starting bet and would not include pressing or increasing your bet.

  9. #9
    My standard was $200 on the 10; $150 on 6 or 8; $50 and full odds on the pass; $50 hard 10; $25 hard 6 or 8--whichever I bet. Then power press, especially if a hard way hit--otherwise every other full press. Yes--you can go bust quickly. But when there is a roll--BOOM. I also sat out most novice rollers and bet only myself and a few others that didn't just randomly fling the dice. I do believe in and practice some degree of dice control, but admittedly since I don't have the opportunity to play often anymore, I have lost that ability. I used to find a groove when I played regularly and had different throws for different casinos based upon the "bounce" of each table. Even different throws for different tables within a casino.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Well, here it is on October 4th and I never heard from Marketing. I also never even heard from my host.
    And today, October 6th, my host phoned me to tell me that "marketing will not budge." My host also reports having exhausting discussions with "marketing" and being unable to get marketing to change their position. "I have to go to a higher up," my host says.

    My host is in agreement with me, that the marketing dept has a strict rule and it comes down to this: They would rather see someone gamble $100 in one day than $200 over three days. According to the marketing formula, a player who bets $200 over three days is not as good of a customer as a player who gambles $100 in just one day.

    Let's say you have 5,000 tier points from Total Rewards. If you earned those 5,000 tier points in one day you would be ranked a better gambler and a more valuable customer than if you earned the same 5,000 tier points in two days or three days. So the total amount of your "gaming" or "action" is not as important as the amount of action per day.

    Many businesses operate differently. Take the supermarket business, for example, where the profit margins are small -- usually about 1% on most grocery items. Supermarkets want the customers who will return to the store every week repeating that 1% profit margin 52 weeks a year. That type of "weekly customer" is more important than a customer who might buy a few higher profit margin items once or twice a year.

    WalMart has a similar business strategy. Low prices on more merchandise that keeps the customers coming back over and over again.

    Caesars appears to be different. They want the fewer, big profit margin visits more than catering to repeat customers with a smaller, but steady profit margin.

  11. #11
    It just gets worse... an offer for December came in today. Shelley still gets the same $$ amount even though she hasn't been to Caesars or to LV in almost a year. But I got another reduction in my offer. It was another 15% reduction from the offer amounts of October and November. And the December offer is now 66% below the offers I was getting through August.

    I notified my host who expressed shock. I asked, "am I being punished for something?"

  12. #12
    Caesars/Harrahs is a mess.

    Basically, they don't know what to do with me. They scale the amounts one is allowed to wager on sports by your gold/diamond nonsense. So the people who have established that they lose a bundle on slots/table games are allowed to bet more on sports than people who have not established that. Interesting idea -- you restrict people from losing at one thing by basing their limits on previous losing at other things.

    Then, when I do make some modest sports bets -- these bets are large enough by "normal population" standards that my rating goes way up. Then it dies just as quickly either for calendar reasons or because the futures wagers occasionally win, at long odds. So I get good offers, then no offers, then good offers, then no offers. It's ridiculous.

    Alan -- take your business elsewhere for a year and see what comes your way. I'm pretty sure your offers will improve.

  13. #13
    Red you are so right that they have no idea waht they are doing. Back in the day when I was a big player (full RFB and air) I never had to use any points. Everything was run thru my host so my points just kept accumulating unused. Then due to a health issue, I didn't go to Vegas for 2 years, my host retired, and I got nothing. Then I started playing some VP here in Chicago and the offers were pouring in. But I kept using the room and free play offers for rooms in AC and Vegas with no play and they cut me out again. Now, I use the Vegas room offers when I have a horse racing tournament at an other casino in Vegas and give them a little play and the offers are flying again and I have a new host calling me up all the time. Who knows--next month they can cut me off again.

    By the way, the total rewards website says they only give 1 point for every $10 in now. Seems pretty low.

  14. #14
    That's 1 point for every $10 in for VP. Slots is $5.

  15. #15
    I just finished a conversation with someone, who I suppose, was a manager in the marketing department at Caesars Palace. The conversation ended with me saying "you insulted me and this conversation isn't helping." And then I hung up.

    Here's what happened. A few minutes ago my cell phone rang and the number that was displayed was the number that my host at Caesars calls me from. I answered the phone saying "this had better be good news." But instead of hearing my host's cheery voice, it was some guy who said he was with my host, calling from my host's office and then he gave me his name and said he was calling to explain my cut in offers.

    Let me sum it up by saying he gave me what I would expect to hear from a company man giving the company line:

    --- Oh we appreciate your business
    --- You're a good customer
    --- We are sorry that you are disappointed
    --- Your offers are generated by our computer system

    Then we had a brief discussion where I stated my case one more time:

    --- My current tier score is 360,000 which represents $3,600,000 of coin in at video poker and craps.
    --- While my play is not huge on any given visit, it was spread over many visits, and I acknowledge that the visits had a lower total amount than others might have.

    And that's when the "company man" said that based on the dollar value per visit my offers should only be worth about $300.

    That's when I asked him: Is that how you value a player with 360,000 tier points in Total Rewards (this year), and with 3-point-six million dollars of play (this year), and has a tier score that's the equivalent of three and a half "7-Stars players" (this year)?? And trust me -- I am not turning a profit at Caesars Palace on my $3.6-million dollars of play since January of this year.

    That's when he went into his spiel again about how much they value my business. And that's when I gave him my final words and hung up.

  16. #16
    If you look at the Harrah's Yahoo Group and the VPFree mailing lists, this has been going on for some time for various reasons. All they look at is the DAILY theoretical (ADT). Time to send your play to MGM, or the local casinos if you like those.

  17. #17
    One of the problems here is that we used to have to go to Vegas to gamble, so if you went a few times a year everything was based upon that volume of play. Now, because there is gambling everywhere, those few days of play won't earn you anything and you have to play constantly to attain anything.

    The local casinos are mostly Caesars properties. None of the other casinos in Chicago have Vegas affiliation unless you consider Penn Nat'l which has an off-strip Vegas casino. So we are almost forced to stay with Caesars. Too bad cause they are the worst.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by calwatch View Post
    If you look at the Harrah's Yahoo Group and the VPFree mailing lists,
    Can you give us some links? thanks

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Can you give us some links? thanks
    Jean Scott links to those, as well as the Seven Stars Insider (of interest to you, Alan, if you haven't heard of it yet) at http://jscott.lvablog.com/?p=1936
    Last edited by calwatch; 10-14-2012 at 12:03 AM.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by regnis View Post
    Red you are so right that they have no idea waht they are doing. Back in the day when I was a big player (full RFB and air) I never had to use any points. Everything was run thru my host so my points just kept accumulating unused. Then due to a health issue, I didn't go to Vegas for 2 years, my host retired, and I got nothing. Then I started playing some VP here in Chicago and the offers were pouring in. But I kept using the room and free play offers for rooms in AC and Vegas with no play and they cut me out again. Now, I use the Vegas room offers when I have a horse racing tournament at an other casino in Vegas and give them a little play and the offers are flying again and I have a new host calling me up all the time. Who knows--next month they can cut me off again.

    By the way, the total rewards website says they only give 1 point for every $10 in now. Seems pretty low.
    Strangely, when I was checking in @ Flamingo 2 weeks ago, my name was tagged by a casino host.(a little back story: I had grown weary of my host @ LV Harrahs after a few years of what I called "their indifference" and recently returned to the Flamingo. I did not start up with any Flamingo host right away as I was in no hurry to become acquainted with another indifferent host). So, this new host from out of the blue comes by and informs me that my name had been given to him (but he couldn't recall by whom...I'm thinking: red flag). So we chat and he says he'll "see what he can do for me at checkout". Checkout morning comes and he cheerfully says I can use my reward points to cover everything on my bill.

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