How to sell a gambling system, in five easy steps.

[redietz]

One of the issues here is something I posted several times many moons ago -- namely that as long as Mr. Argentino uses aliases, he's not obligated to tell the truth about anything, as is the case for anonymous posters on any forum. And as is the case for Granhoff writing under "Dancer" and "Jean Scott" and so on.

Because these are pseudonyms, what we read may be entirely 100% fiction, and they are under no obligation for it to have any factual basis. We can't sue them and so on because there is no "them." So in a legal sense, Argentino hasn't done anything wrong because whatever he posts hasn't been the "life story" of Argentino. It's been the biography of some fictional character named "Singer."

This is why, folks, people in academic journals actually sign their names to things.

Now what happens when one of these fictional characters has some internal inconsistencies in their stories that make the stories impossible to believe? They close the shop for that character and invent another one and on we go. Now those folks who have channels whereby to promote their characters (LV Advisor or Gaming Today) have motivation to keep their characters alive and consistent. So sometimes these fictional characters band together to create a universe that they sell to the public.

Kurt Flowers/Martin Strong/Anthony Curtis gets all bent out of shape, according to some, when he's publicly outed with a name other than the one he's presenting at the time. Expecting real-person biographical details from fictional characters makes as much sense as looking in the yellow pages to hire The Hulk as a bodyguard.

[Alan Mendelson]

It doesn't matter what was said under the name "jatki." What matters is what will be said under the name "Singer."

Under examination here is the "Singer System."

All I am saying is let's see what the "Singer System" is. Nothing else matters, does it? Everything else is "noise." I can't say what the Singer system is, Arc can't say what the Singer system is, jatki can't say what the Singer system is -- only Singer himself can say what the Singer system is.

This debate right now with jatki doesn't mean anything. We all want to see what Singer says about his system, his proof, his records, etc. That's all we should be concerned about. Don't let this jatki distraction get the better of you/us.

[bigfoot66]

Let me say that Mr. Singer has been nothing but kind to me. He mailed me a signed copy of his book and declined my offer to pay him for it, so personally I have a soft spot for the man. However, it seems to me that a lot of what Singer does is not based on a real strict system. If there was we would have seen it long ago. He loses money on the dollar machines, and once he loses enough he takes a shot at the $5 machines. If he loses enough there he moves on to $10 or $25. I believe this is as much detail as exists to the Singer System. He won't give you more than that, because if he actually puts specific directions down for how to play it is subject to testing/simulation and we will be cable to say that it failed. after 25,000,000 hands or whatever.

As far as the Jatki thing goes, a lot of this would be cleared up if Mr. Jatki authorized Alan to publish the private message.

[arcimede$]

I believe the jatki situation is pretty obvious. Singer contacted someone he trained in the past and asked them if he could use an alias created by this person. This individual really does exist and essentially becomes a "tool" for Singer. So, the name and password is created, probably by the "tool", and Singer uses it to make comments. However, he knows that if a problem turns up he can always get the "tool" to back him up.

So, when I eventually outed that Singer was making some/most of the comments under the jatki name, he could simply tell Alan to talk to the "tool". However, when Alan discovered the IP addresses used by Singer and the jatki "tool" were the same this part of the plan fell apart.

Now, it really doesn't accomplish much to push this further. Alan is absolutely right. Singer lied and got caught. Done.

That gets us to the question of the strategy documentation Singer has promised. Let me say this one more time. Anyone waiting for such documentation is pretty gullible. It CANNOT exist. We have a mathematical proof that I've referenced many times that clearly shows that no such documentation can exist. It truly is like waiting for evidence that 2+2=5. Duh!

The bottom line is pretty simple. Singer lies. Nothing he says can be trusted. He never lived in a 4500 sq' home as he claimed, he has no evidence to support his strategy, he uses alias names to support himself, etc, etc. He probably never won squat playing VP as evidenced by his bankruptcy and the latest lien for failing to pay for his apartment rent.

All these lies and many more are simply a house of cards to make the world believe he is a successful gambler. That house of cards is now destroyed. He should be laughed out of town whenever he tries to resurrect the myth.

[redietz]

If he hadn't been arrogant and abusive, I'd feel sorry for him. I actually do feel kind of sorry for him, anyway. He probably followed "Dancer's" modus operandi, got clobbered, and then what? What do you do when you've lost 400K (if 400K it was) following somebody else's strategies?

[jatki]

It doesn't matter what was said under the name "jatki." What matters is what will be said under the name "Singer."

Under examination here is the "Singer System."

All I am saying is let's see what the "Singer System" is. Nothing else matters, does it? Everything else is "noise." I can't say what the Singer system is, Arc can't say what the Singer system is, jatki can't say what the Singer system is -- only Singer himself can say what the Singer system is.

This debate right now with jatki doesn't mean anything. We all want to see what Singer says about his system, his proof, his records, etc. That's all we should be concerned about. Don't let this jatki distraction get the better of you/us.

Alan as much as you say what the debate should be about, arc will never let go of his lies about Singer and the sometimes readers won't do any more than give lip service. Redetz seems to have problems with writers using pen names, bigfoot probably didn't do all the reading I did on Rob's site that explained fully his strategies, I'm sure you couldn't have either, and even if arc visited Rob's house he'd claim it was a post-bail bankruptcy set up provided by the apartment complex owner. Why wouldn't he lie so much, he's been hurt so many times over by rob's tough words. If Rob said those things to me I'd probably put him in the hospital.

Just so you don't feel painted into a corner over my PM's to you, I'll release what I said here now. You shouldn't have to shoulder any burden as you try to steer the discussion into the right direction. I'll start by repeating what Rob told me on the phone about what and when he's posting. Arc says there's nothing, but early this month he said he's posting his singleplay strategy in detail. He's not going back to Pahrump and is relocating between SouthDakota and the Reno area, not sure, but he'll be settled by Nov 3 or 4 which by the way is when he said he'd start discussing any questions on his strategy post because of all the driving etcetera. He was going to go to Phoenix for thankgiving but now his family is going to go up to LakeTahoe where he will do something like he did last christmas with a lake cabin or something. I asked because I said I'd go with him to wherever it is his car and paperwork is stored. Not sure when that will be and I reminded him that people are waiting for it and arc will make up more lies until it's done. That he doesn't care about, and he said something arc would only get another ulcer over.

My PM. I'm know nothing about these internet addresses or anything to do with that, only what I'm told. I've met Rob in the past, and when I went to Pahrump to start hauling for extra money to help with my daughter's troubles, I parked in an RV park where I ran into rob by luck. I say luck because he's a decent person and he and his lovely wife took me out for dinner twice until he left. He uses a verizon hotspot for his internet as I do, it's cheap and reliable. When he left he worked out something for me to spoof arc with just to drive him up a wall and it for sure worked like a charm. It wasn't meant to give alan heartburn. For a short while he wrote the post and sent them to me and I posted them under his id, as I was also posting. He wanted the controversy an he knows about id addresses. He stopped doing that well over a month ago, his choice because I do owe him.

Alan I won't post anything more about this unless you have a question. I know arc will create some wild lie about it all and think he's solved the quiz of the century because he has too much time on his hands and hates Singer and craves to be known as a smarter guy than anyone else. Can't really fault him for that given what he has to put up with each day. Either way, singer says he doesn't really care about much of this and is only following through as he's able because he promised Alan. He's into another life now, anyone see that or care? I can an do, so give him some slack. I know arc won't because of the pain Rob's caused him. So be it. Spoofing on a forum where nobody knows nobody is hardly a crime.

Be well.

[redietz]

Okay -- let me get try to get this straight. The "spoofing" consisted of jatki posting under Rob's name from the same internet address as jatki was posting, and this was all an attempt to pull arci's strings and make arci think that jatki and rob had been discovered to be one and the same. Of course, it was all just "spoofing." And "he" stopped doing that over a month ago because "he's" on the road somewhere where you aren't? That seems a little strange -- so when the "spoofing" is going on, Rob leaves for another part of the country and doesn't post from there because that would ruin the "spoof?"

Well, I'm glad we cleared that up in a logical and thoroughly convincing manner.

And, just to be clear, where was this RV park where you and Rob happened to bump into each other?

[redietz]

I take it this storyline is from an old Ed Wood screenplay or something?

Yeah, I see Alan's point. Don't perturb the inmates until they've completed the questionaire that demonstrates they need to be in the asylum. Fair point, Alan.

[jatki]

Redetz I don't know what you mean by the same internet addresses but we were both in the rv park he was at for a time in Pahrump. Pahrump is a destination spot for a lot of winter birds and that's mainly where I haul to now. Singer knows what he was doing, I just did it with him and for him. When he got tired of reading the crap and sending me posts he quit. His goal was to hassle arc more, he did that but it probably took longer than he wanted. I think in honesty he feels bad for arc so he tries to keep his mind busy for him. That's just a guess.

You wouldn't do things the same and nobody else may but I probably wouldn't wanting to be doing anything you've done the past 30 years either. We're all different people, accept that. Why call us inmates? One thing you might think of doing is apologizing to Alan for all the trouble you and others gave him over what others were doing. You and they have made it into a much bigger issue than it is. you ought to all be wondering what magic power Singer holds over all of you to be so entwined in whatever he says and does. You hear anyone say he's a decent guy and has a wonderful wife and probably family, that goes right through the holes in your heads because all yous prefer to do is make up criticisms and in arcs case lies after lies. Go ahead and whomp on me for what I did, but look at yourselves and ask why it even was read-worthy.

Alan if you want to contact me I'll be at my email address. I may come back on after singer posts his strategy, if the inmates are allowed.

[Vegas_lover]

Jatki wrote: One thing you might think of doing is apologizing to Alan for all the trouble you and others gave him over what others were doing.

And that's coming from your mouth? You're one piece of work that's for sure! And that's not meant to be a compliment.

Jatki wrote: You hear anyone say he's a decent guy and has a wonderful wife and probably family, that goes right through the holes in your heads because all yous prefer to do is make up criticisms.

Man, get your head out of your ass!!!! The only thing you and Singer have been doing is show how disgusting you both are. Here you have it, an insult right back. You've both been a complete disgrace to this forum. Your and Singer's behavior has been so far out of line, you can't see the line anymore. This is by far the dumbest thing I have seen posted on this forum since it started.

Sorry Alan, but we don't have to let every dumb "white trash" statement slide.

[bigfoot66]

you ought to all be wondering what magic power Singer holds over all of you to be so entwined in whatever he says and does.

I have been wondering this for quite a while. It really is amazing how much power Singer has over the group.

[Alan Mendelson]

Do you all understand now why this is a mess? LOL

Also, to be fair to Rob: jatki sent a message to me that he posted under Rob's name. Rob never confirmed it. And to be honest, I never asked Rob about it because I thought it would also be wrong to reveal to Rob what jatki sent to me in a private message. Well, know that jatki has said it himself, we can wait to see if indeed Rob authorized jatki to make posts using his name.

By the way, it does make sense for the users of a RV park to be sharing the same IP address. So to have both jatki and Rob on the same IP address does not necessarily mean that the two were joined at the hip for the posts in question.

Okay. Now, let's wait for Rob to tell us about his system. That's really what we all want to know, isn't it? And once Rob tells us the details about his system and research, then the discussion will have some substantial information to dissect.

[regnis]

Over the last several months we have lost sight of whether Singer's system or any other system works. No one has offered an alternative system for consideration other than the math guys grind out. My experience has been that most of us neither have games with high enough pay-outs (about 96% in my area) nor enough time for the math guys grind.

How about some creative ideas pending publication of Singer's system. I can hear ARCI already saying the math can't be beat--but I beat craps for many years between jobs and I bet 4's and 10's and hard ways.

[Alan Mendelson]

I can hear ARCI already saying the math can't be beat--but I beat craps for many years between jobs and I bet 4's and 10's and hard ways.

Thanks for posting. I agree with you that the math can be beat. And I say this because anything can happen in gambling -- including beating the math and beating the negative expectation games. It amazes me that the "math guys" doom everyone to failure who plays a negative expectation game. Why must you lose?

Craps is a negative expectation game but it can be beaten either by luck or by skill. Frankly, I know few who have the skill to influence the dice or "control" the dice but it is possible.

I also think you can get lucky and beat video poker. After all, it is a game controlled by a random number generator, and if the RNG gives you the lucky combination of cards you can win.

Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that you will win playing a positive expectation game. So, if you can't guarantee winning a positive expectation game, how is it that the math guys can guarantee that you will lose playing a negative expectation game?

[arcimede$]

Over the last several months we have lost sight of whether Singer's system or any other system works. No one has offered an alternative system for consideration other than the math guys grind out. My experience has been that most of us neither have games with high enough pay-outs (about 96% in my area) nor enough time for the math guys grind.

How about some creative ideas pending publication of Singer's system. I can hear ARCI already saying the math can't be beat--but I beat craps for many years between jobs and I bet 4's and 10's and hard ways.

Remember that the math only specifies a bell curve. It doesn't claim a game cannot be beat over the short term. It can be with any system. However, over time the probability is lower that any person will continue to exceed the expected return of their play. Why would anyone choose to play with an expected return that is lower? That only decreases their opportunity to win.

The only question is whether a person desires to give themselves the best opportunity for future success. In VP every hand is independent and no "system" is going to overcome the odds inherent in each and every hand. No "system" can change those odds. Therefore, the only way to improve the probability of success is to make sure every hand is played at the highest ER possible. After that we can only hope to be on the good side of the bell curve.

[arcimede$]

Alan as much as you say what the debate should be about, arc will never let go of his lies about Singer and the sometimes readers won't do any more than give lip service. Redetz seems to have problems with writers using pen names, bigfoot probably didn't do all the reading I did on Rob's site that explained fully his strategies, I'm sure you couldn't have either, and even if arc visited Rob's house he'd claim it was a post-bail bankruptcy set up provided by the apartment complex owner. Why wouldn't he lie so much, he's been hurt so many times over by rob's tough words. If Rob said those things to me I'd probably put him in the hospital.

All Rob needs to do is provide the address of where he lived and I can check the records. I've stated this before and Rob is completely silent. There is no house. You've fallen for the lies. Just because Rob treated you nice does not mean he isn't lying. He wanted something from you and he got it by simply playing you. Wise up.

Just so you don't feel painted into a corner over my PM's to you, I'll release what I said here now. You shouldn't have to shoulder any burden as you try to steer the discussion into the right direction. I'll start by repeating what Rob told me on the phone about what and when he's posting. Arc says there's nothing, but early this month he said he's posting his singleplay strategy in detail. He's not going back to Pahrump and is relocating between SouthDakota and the Reno area, not sure, but he'll be settled by Nov 3 or 4 which by the way is when he said he'd start discussing any questions on his strategy post because of all the driving etcetera. He was going to go to Phoenix for thankgiving but now his family is going to go up to LakeTahoe where he will do something like he did last christmas with a lake cabin or something. I asked because I said I'd go with him to wherever it is his car and paperwork is stored. Not sure when that will be and I reminded him that people are waiting for it and arc will make up more lies until it's done. That he doesn't care about, and he said something arc would only get another ulcer over.

So, no documentation to support his claims. Exactly like I have been telling everyone.

My PM. I'm know nothing about these internet addresses or anything to do with that, only what I'm told. I've met Rob in the past, and when I went to Pahrump to start hauling for extra money to help with my daughter's troubles, I parked in an RV park where I ran into rob by luck. I say luck because he's a decent person and he and his lovely wife took me out for dinner twice until he left. He uses a verizon hotspot for his internet as I do, it's cheap and reliable. When he left he worked out something for me to spoof arc with just to drive him up a wall and it for sure worked like a charm. It wasn't meant to give alan heartburn. For a short while he wrote the post and sent them to me and I posted them under his id, as I was also posting. He wanted the controversy an he knows about id addresses. He stopped doing that well over a month ago, his choice because I do owe him.

So, exactly like I have been telling everyone. His words under your name.

Alan I won't post anything more about this unless you have a question. I know arc will create some wild lie about it all and think he's solved the quiz of the century because he has too much time on his hands and hates Singer and craves to be known as a smarter guy than anyone else. Can't really fault him for that given what he has to put up with each day. Either way, singer says he doesn't really care about much of this and is only following through as he's able because he promised Alan. He's into another life now, anyone see that or care? I can an do, so give him some slack. I know arc won't because of the pain Rob's caused him. So be it. Spoofing on a forum where nobody knows nobody is hardly a crime.

Be well.

The bottom line is I called this scam perfectly. I've never lied once. All I've done is provided the facts on every issue. Singer and his tool have continually lied about everything. We now know there will be no supporting documentation as I also stated could not exist. Of course, that also means Rob was lying about that as well. Why would any reasonable person believe ANYTHING they say? Why would any reasonable person doubt anything that I have said when everything I've said has turned out to be true?

[redietz]

The truth hurts, Arci, even when it's in bold print and plain language in front of one's face. At least it hurts if you want to find a way to win at negative expectation games. Now let's see if we can avoid the pitfall of hitching our negative EV star to some other brilliant contributor from the gambling world who claims to have discovered a methodology for winning that doesn't make any mathematical sense.

Games of opinion, poker included, can be beaten. The problem with Rob is that he tried to reinvent video poker as a game of opinion.

[regnis]

Thanks for posting. I agree with you that the math can be beat. And I say this because anything can happen in gambling -- including beating the math and beating the negative expectation games. It amazes me that the "math guys" doom everyone to failure who plays a negative expectation game. Why must you lose?

Craps is a negative expectation game but it can be beaten either by luck or by skill. Frankly, I know few who have the skill to influence the dice or "control" the dice but it is possible.

I also think you can get lucky and beat video poker. After all, it is a game controlled by a random number generator, and if the RNG gives you the lucky combination of cards you can win.

Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that you will win playing a positive expectation game. So, if you can't guarantee winning a positive expectation game, how is it that the math guys can guarantee that you will lose playing a negative expectation game?

My problem with the math (and this is not an attack on Arci because his mathematics are fact) in video poker is that whether I am getting 8-5 or 7-5 only means I'm getting a few more spins. My winning or losing is really dependent upon getting a bonus quad like aces with a kicker or even a lesser quad like 3's with a kicker. If I don't get the bonus quad I lose--plain and simple.

So if Singer has a system, or if Alan's system of taking every win, or any other system works short term, I'm all for it. My history has been pretty regular wins at a definitely negative expectation game of craps (especially since I'm not a 6 and 8 or pass and 2 comes guy), and terrible losses with almost perfect play at video poker regardless of the payback (8-5; 7-5; etc.)

[redietz]

"Personal history" doesn't trump "history" in general. It's just part of "history."

I was mugged by three short white guys wearing no shirts. That doesn't mean I should avoid the beach.

[regnis]

"Personal history" doesn't trump "history" in general. It's just part of "history."

I was mugged by three short white guys wearing no shirts. That doesn't mean I should avoid the beach.

Some guys would call taht a "good night"