New video gaming in Illinois

[regnis]

In Illinois, after several years, they are finally testing video gaming (as they call it) in various bars around the State. This is legislation that was doomed to fail and the bigger jurisdictions, like Chicago, opted out. Anyway, my question is primarily to Arci and the other math guys:


The max dollar in per spin is $2.00, and the max win is $500. So royals and bonus hands are limited to $500. I don't have paytables as I haven't been to these establishments, but was wondering what kind of increases in the other payoffs, like full house etc. would be needed to offset the limit on bonus hands. Assume payback of no more than 96-97%, if even that much. Or would regular payoffs for those hands still give 96% since royal and bonus hands are so rare.

FYI-here is the law on the RNG:

(2) It must theoretically pay out a mathematically
demonstrable percentage during the expected lifetime of the machine of all amounts played, which must not be less than 80%. The Board shall establish a maximum payout percentage for approved models by rule. Video gaming terminals that may be affected by skill must meet this standard when using a method of play that will provide the greatest return to the player over a period of continuous play.

(3) It must use a random selection process to
determine the outcome of each play of a game. The random selection process must meet 99% confidence limits using a standard chi-squared test for (randomness) goodness of fit.

(4) It must display an accurate representation of the
game outcome.

(5) It must not automatically alter pay tables or any
function of the video gaming terminal based on internal computation of hold percentage or have any means of manipulation that affects the random selection process or probabilities of winning a game

Obviously, I will probably never even enter one of these joints. But the bad news, they put 1 a block from my office-lol.

[Alan Mendelson]

I think we need to know the "coin in" and the pay tables. If for example a $500 royal is paid with a max bet of 25-cents it's a better deal than a $1000 royal paid on a $1.25 bet on a traditional 25-cent video poker machine. The pay table might be limited to $500 for the royal but what if other quads pay more than on a traditional machine?

The language that you gave for the rules of a RNG appear routine.

Since there's one a block from the office, tell us about the coin in and pay tables and the games.

[regnis]

Ok-I'll have a 6 year old teach me how to use the camera on my phone and take a picture of the pay tables.

[Alan Mendelson]

Ok-I'll have a 6 year old teach me how to use the camera on my phone and take a picture of the pay tables.

Thank heaven. I thought I was the only one.

[regnis]

well--I couldn't find a 6 year old so I had to type these in. Here are paytables for 4 of the games. These are 25 cent--they also had nickle and penny. Law allows only 5 machines per bar. They basically took coat check room and put 5 machines in there.Pretty shabby and 2 people playing pennies. Again, max payout allowed is $500, and max bet total per spin is $2.00

DOUBLE DOUBLE

Coins 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Royal 250 500 750 1000 2000 2000 2000 2000
SF 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 1280
Aces/with 400 800 1200 1600 2000 2000 2000 2000
234/with/or
Aces without 160 320 480 640 800 960 1120 1280
234 without 80 160 240 320 400 480 560 640
Quads 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400
House 8 16 24 32 40 48 56 64
Flush 5 10 pro rata rest of way
Str 4 pro rata rest of way
3 of 3 pro rata rest of way
2pair 1 2 etc
JoB 1 2 etc

BONUS

Royal 250 pro rata but 5-8 coins 2000
SF 50 pro rata
Aces 80 pro rata
234 40 pro rata
Quad 25 pro rata
House 6 prorata
Fl 5 prorata
St 4
3 of 3
2 pair 2
JoB 1

JOB

JoB is an 8-5 game—all prorate except coin 5-8 2000 for royal and 8th coin SF=640

DUECES

Royal no deuce—250 etc but 5-8=2000
4 dueces 200 but 8th coin 1760
Royal with 25 pro rata
5 of a kind 16 etc
SF 13 etc
Quad 4
House 3
Fl/str 2
trips 1

[regnis]

To clarify previous post ---they take an 8 coin max, but the 2000 cap ($500) is attained at 5-8 coins for royal. Everything is pretty much pro rata with the few exceptions noted.

I would love to see Arci's analysis of whether 5 or 8 coins has a better return based on this anomoly.

Obviously, Bonus is only 6-5 and DDB is 8-5.

[arcimede$]

It appears the pay table for DDB is typical for the 8/5 version of the game for everything except the RF. With a RF at 250 coins instead of 800 coins per credit the return is typically reduced by 1.3%. This should give you a method for determining the return for the 1-4 coin examples.

For the higher coin situations you can apply this rule of thumb. A RF typically accounts for 2% of the return. This is how I came up with the 1.3% above. I simply took 250/800, multiplied it by 2% and then subtracted that from 2% to find the amount to reduce the return. For the 8 coin case you now have 125/800 instead which comes out to around a 1.7% reduction.

[regnis]

It appears the pay table for DDB is typical for the 8/5 version of the game for everything except the RF. With a RF at 250 coins instead of 800 coins per credit the return is typically reduced by 1.3%. This should give you a method for determining the return for the 1-4 coin examples.

For the higher coin situations you can apply this rule of thumb. A RF typically accounts for 2% of the return. This is how I came up with the 1.3% above. I simply took 250/800, multiplied it by 2% and then subtracted that from 2% to find the amount to reduce the return. For the 8 coin case you now have 125/800 instead which comes out to around a 1.7% reduction.

Thanks. So for the math challenged (me) and just for intellectual curiosity as I am unlikely to ever play these machines, on DDB, with the bonus 8th coin SF and the royal freeze on 5-8, would it be better to play 5 or 8 coins on that game?

[arcimede$]

Thanks. So for the math challenged (me) and just for intellectual curiosity as I am unlikely to ever play these machines, on DDB, with the bonus 8th coin SF and the royal freeze on 5-8, would it be better to play 5 or 8 coins on that game?

5 ... but I wouldn't waste my time with such poor pay tables.

BTW, there is one part of the typical regulation that I didn't see in your description. It did not require every symbol to have an equal chance of occurring. This means that even though the selection is random, certain symbols (results) could be randomly selected at a higher rate. This could be used to reduce the return even further.

[regnis]

5 ... but I wouldn't waste my time with such poor pay tables.

BTW, there is one part of the typical regulation that I didn't see in your description. It did not require every symbol to have an equal chance of occurring. This means that even though the selection is random, certain symbols (results) could be randomly selected at a higher rate. This could be used to reduce the return even further.

I didn't include the whole statute, and I don't recall whether that is in the statute or not. In our regular casinos, we have the standard rules and regs and regular IGt or game maker type machines. These new machines in the bars and restaurants, I believe, are the type that are still rare (I think Cosmo or Aria may have them)---they are all hooked to one central processor rather than on an individual machine basis through the State so that they, in theory, can regulate and take their cut more easily. I, of course, trust nothing that runs thru the State of illinois. We presently have only 3 former governors in prison.

[Alan Mendelson]

IGT has said that it does not allow its machines to be tampered with and must always meet the regulations of the state of Nevada. I think IGT does this because of the after market and secondary market for its machines and it wants its reputation to remain intact no matter where the machines are used.

If they are IGT machines, then I would be very confident that the machines are random.

When cards do not have an equal chance of being dealt it seems to me these would be like "class 2 gaming devices" found on Indian casinos. Do you know what the Illinois regulations are for Class II vs Class III gaming?

[regnis]

Illinois casinos are definitely Class III gaming. I assume the bars are also but I can't be sure. Of course, there has been VP in Illinois bars for many years--just not legally. They paid out 40-45%.

[regnis]

here is the thread I referred to in response to Peoria VP in bars