Be honest about the "odds bet" at craps.

[Alan Mendelson]

I'm asking everyone to be honest about the "odds bet" at craps. The odds bet is the additional money you wager after a point is established or after a come bet moves to a number.

Mathematically the "odds bet" has no house advantage, meaning it is paid at true odds of the bet winning. On the other hand, the odds bet has no player advantage. This is why it is called "free odds" because it comes with no premium or advantage or mathematical cost.

At most casinos, the maximum "odds bet" is five times the amount of the basic or "flat bet." And at a few casinos you can bet as much as 100 times the flat bet or even 1000 times the flat bet.

Certainly, if you have the money it makes more sense to bet less on the flat bet which is paid "even money" or 1 for 1, and to put more of your money as the "odds bet" which is paid at "true odds" which is as much as 3 to 1 for bets on the points of 4 and 10. Yes, odds bets do pay better than the basic passline or come bets.

But what you must also realize is that the house, while the house pays the bet at true odds, is also more likely to win the odds bet money. This is because the 7 is more likely to show than any of the numbers with an odds bet attached.

And so, my question. And please be honest about it:

How much do you bet on the odds? At casinos with 10-times odds or 100-times odds or even 1000-times odds do you bet the max because there is no house advantage? Or, do you bet a smaller amount of money? And what is your reasoning?

[regnis]

Glad to see you try to work in some craps threads, although they never seem to get much response. We have 100x odds in most of our casinos here in chicago. As I've mentioned in previous threads, whereas I am a $1 VP player, I play craps at a much higher level.

I will start with the lowest pass line bet allowed--from $5 to $15 depending where you play. My initial odds are $200, and I progress from there--usually same bet then double--same bet then double, but if it comes "hard" I will accelerate the press. I will increase the pass line bet when needed. Same with come bets if I am coming.

But let me take this opportunity for my craps tutorial and the fallacy of the come bet and odds. For the lower level player or where odds are only 3,4,or 5x as found in Vegas, you are better off with a place bet. If you have 5x odds, a $10 come bet with 50 odds on the 6 or 8 pays $70. Similarly, a $60 place on 6 or 8 pays $70. But on the place bet, you don't lose the $10 flat bets on the 7 coming out. Also, with come betting, you get paid every other, as the bet comes down, then the number rolls again and you replace it. With a place bet, you get paid each time and can take it down any time. Additionally, for purposes of comps, many casinos do not count your odds bet because there is no theoretical edge to the house. At my level of play, the comps on place bets can add up significantly.

Now, to further muddy the waters, many players are not aware of the "put" bet. Essentially, the put bet allows you to put the flat bet (the $10 or whatever your come bet is) at any time on any number, and put the odds as well. The big advantage to a put bet is you don't have to wait for each number to roll like a come bet--rather you can put any number with odds at any time. And, since it is a put bet not a come bet, you can let it stay up or press after it hits---it doesn't have to come down like a come bet, so you get paid on every hit, not on every other.

For me, at my level and with 100x odds, I use a combo of put and place.

[Alan Mendelson]

Good post Regnis. A couple of comments:

1. By making place bets or put bets (Caesars allows put bets, but some other casinos don't) you are losing the advantage that the flat bet has on the come out roll. In fact, the come out roll is the only time in craps where a player has the advantage on the passline. Once the point is made, the advantage swings dramatically over to the house and to the don't players.

2. While you can remove a place bet at any time, you can also remove your odds at any time. The flat bet or contract bet must remain till resolved, but you can consider that to be the price of admission for making the odds bet with its payoffs.

3. About two years ago, maybe three, Caesars started to include the odds bets as part of the "average bet" calculation used for comps of craps players. I am sure many other casinos don't do this.

4. You have a lot of money riding when you play craps... a lot more than me, and I am a green chip player with an average bet of $260 including odds. One big difference is that my money is spread across more numbers, while you are concentrating and hoping on repeaters. I don't criticize how you bet because it is the same for both of us: we need a lot of passes and numbers to make money.

[regnis]

I didn't mean to imply that I only bet 1 number. If I am at a $5 game where I can put, I will put them all--4 of them for $50 and two primary numbers at $200--1 of which is always the 10.

You are correct about the flat bet on the come out. But at a $5 or even $10 flat with my overall exposure, it is meaningless. Also, don't forget that once you have several come bets, you lose them all on a come out 7. In the old single or double odds game where my pass line or come bet started at $50 and could be several $100's, then it was meaningful and you could not play that way.

Also, with the minimal flat bet in 1 100x odds game, you don't need a crap check whereas again, in the old single or double odds days, you did.

It seems caesars chanhes its mind every other day on whether odds are considered for comps. Here in chicago none use odds.

[regnis]

you think arci has hemorhagged yet. He cannot fathom playing craps at all and making bets with such a huge casino edge. But as you and I know, in craps, you will suffer a lot of losses between wins, but those wins are often huge.

[Alan Mendelson]

you think arci has hemorhagged yet. He cannot fathom playing craps at all and making bets with such a huge casino edge. But as you and I know, in craps, you will suffer a lot of losses between wins, but those wins are often huge.

Really? In all of my years of playing craps, I have walked away from the table with a session win of $5,000 or more only FOUR TIMES in my life. I have had multiple small wins and I have had many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many, sessions when I went through my entire alloted bankroll.

I can swear on a stack of bibles reaching to the moon that I have probably lost the equivalent of a four-bedroom, three bath Los Angeles house in an upper-middle income neighborhood playing craps.

Frankly, winning at craps is a function of betting more. The more you bet the more you can win. And, the more you bet, the more you lose.

On the other hand, playing my negative expectation Bonus and Aces and Faces video poker machine in just the last six weeks I must be ahead by $40,000+ thanks to a lucky string of royals -- 2 at $20K, three at $8K. I have never had a win at craps that topped an $8,000 royal and I've never lost as much money playing a session or trip of VP as I've lost playing a session or trip at craps.

Yes, I've been at Caesars when a player won a million dollars at the same table I was at. But while I was betting $25 or $50 on a number, he was betting FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS on the same numbers.

[Alan Mendelson]

John Growchowski has just published another online article about the odds bets at craps and he is trumpeting them again calling the odds a great bet:

http://grochowski.casinocitytimes.co...reat-bet-61748

But I urge everyone to read the full article all the way down to the bottom and carefully take in the last few lines with the warning about what happens when you are at a cold table.

I've said this over and over again: betting the odds, the so-called "best bet on the table" will not make you win. The odds will allow you to win more, but only if the dice cooperate -- or you are able to have some influence over the dice.

I've written about this many times over the years and it's my best story about the danger of falling for "the odds are the best bet on the table" ---

A young couple walks up to a craps table at Caesars where the minimum bet is $25. They have a $100 bill and tell the dealer they are new players, never played before, and ask for advice on what to do. The dealer says to start, put $25 on the passline. They do that. A point of 4 is rolled, and the dealer says "now bet the odds, it's the best bet on the table" and their remaining three green chips are perfect for the odds at this 3-4-5 times odds table.

The shooter then goes on a run of "numbers" hitting many numbers and while the rest of us are filling our rails, the young couple is patiently waiting for the "best bet on the table" to pay off. It never does.

As the dealer rakes in their four green chips, the couple turns and walks with the young man saying "I thought you said it was the best bet on the table."

[russkg]

I play Max Odds only when I am up significantly although my pass line bet is normally quite small compared to my place bets. Reason: I dislike (Hate) losing my Pass Line bet on the comeout rolls of 2, 3, & 12. I prefer to press my place bets with a goal of getting to the table limit especially 6 & 8. I also love to Parlay Hard 6 & 8. And I always play the Fire!

[regnis]

In Chicago, we have 100x odds, so with a $10 pass line bet you need a good roll to get to full odds. I start at $200 so it still takes a while. In Vegas or AC, I always take full odds if I am not just placing instead.

[superrick]

The pass-line bet and odds bets are just stupid bets, even when all the books say they are the best bets on the table. The so-called free odds bet was developed to get the player to bet on the pass-line and it did just that! No casino is going to give you a good bet, that's not how it works, they only have bets that are designed to take your money. To bad that players can't see that. Most craps players are so stupid it's pathetic, they don't do the math when they are betting on any bet that's on the table. When they read about the pass-line bet they are only looking at the 1.47% advantage the casino has on the pass-line bet. Then they look at the so-call free odds bet, like the casino has no advantage on you .

You better go back to school if that is what you believe. There is nothing in life that is free, and the so-called free odds are a good example of that. Didn't I already write that the free odds bet was developed to get you to bet the pass-line bet? Now why would the casinos want you to bet the pass-line bet?
Could it be that they know that they have the best bet there is when you are betting the pass-line bet with full odds?

Why do you mister smarty pants still lose when you are betting the best bet on the craps table? Could it be that you are just following every other damn fool on the table when you are making that bet, because you haven't taking the time to think about what you are doing when you make that bet? You just locked yourself into a bet that can only be decided two ways. The one way is that you are going to lose, more times then you will win by betting on the pass-line and taking those so-called free odds.

The the other way is that you will win some of the times you play betting that way, but you are still losing money because they only paid you even money on your pass-line bet!

[Alan Mendelson]

So how do you bet, superrick? Do you just place the 6 and 8, or something else?

[regnis]

The pass-line bet and odds bets are just stupid bets, even when all the books say they are the best bets on the table. The so-called free odds bet was developed to get the player to bet on the pass-line and it did just that! No casino is going to give you a good bet, that's not how it works, they only have bets that are designed to take your money. To bad that players can't see that. Most craps players are so stupid it's pathetic, they don't do the math when they are betting on any bet that's on the table. When they read about the pass-line bet they are only looking at the 1.47% advantage the casino has on the pass-line bet. Then they look at the so-call free odds bet, like the casino has no advantage on you .

You better go back to school if that is what you believe. There is nothing in life that is free, and the so-called free odds are a good example of that. Didn't I already write that the free odds bet was developed to get you to bet the pass-line bet? Now why would the casinos want you to bet the pass-line bet?
Could it be that they know that they have the best bet there is when you are betting the pass-line bet with full odds?

Why do you mister smarty pants still lose when you are betting the best bet on the craps table? Could it be that you are just following every other damn fool on the table when you are making that bet, because you haven't taking the time to think about what you are doing when you make that bet? You just locked yourself into a bet that can only be decided two ways. The one way is that you are going to lose, more times then you will win by betting on the pass-line and taking those so-called free odds.

The the other way is that you will win some of the times you play betting that way, but you are still losing money because they only paid you even money on your pass-line bet!

Not to be repetitive because this has been discussed before, but if you place the 6 for $60, or have a $10 pass with 50 odds on the 6, the payoff is the same $70. Now some will argue that with the pass or come, you can win on the 7-11 coming out. But, of course, you lose the craps and you also lose the bets that were already out there on a 7 coming out after a point has been made (but save the odds). I would argue that with the place bet you don't lose with a 7 coming out and don't really care about the few winners on the 7 coming out and worrying about losing the existing bets (saving odds).

Now, again, as I have said before, in Chicago, we have 100 x odds. So once I have a number at 100 or more, the odds bet is better than the place. Also, if the casino has put bets, which most here in chicago have, you switch from place to put once a number is at 100.

One thing the pass and 2 come bet people fail to see is that once a number is established, you really only cash every other hit, as you always have to re-establish the number. Plus, once you have full odds, in order to press, you have to increase your pass or come bet. With a place or put, the number stayds up and you can press and collect on every hit.

It's a balancing act determined by the amount of odds allowed and the amount you bet.