The Big Hurt Is Coming

[AxelWolf]

In light of that information, I'm even more surprised about how little Shack knew about the Double-Up...he seemed pretty clueless in the interview.

I think you misunderstood what Mike said. I took it, as an AP Mike saw no value in doubling up any win, so he never pressed yes when offered. AP stands for advantage player. That means +EV plays. a 50/50 bet is not +EV. all it does is increase variance.


I also wouldn't count on the fact that Mike knew so little about this play. I suspect he knew a lot more than he let on. Mike was playing the part of the interviewer. His job, as he saw it, was to act as though he knew nothing about the play to get Rob to explain it in as much detail as possible so people could decide forthemselves whether Rob was credible or not. And he did that.

But now that the interview is over, I would like to hear the interviewer's opinion on the subject. But that's just me.

I would say there's almost zero chance Mike gives his opinion on whether or not he thinks that Rob played this, unless Rob insists on it. And even then, I don't think we would get a yes or no answer.

[Ozzy]

axel: First, as I told Mike today, the reason I released this info to you was because after 15+ years of being totally silent on something of this magnitude, I HAD to let it out. I was a professional video poker player...it was necessary to tell someone--even a top critic. Secondary is whether anyone would believe me or not. The cover-up lying for all the years gave me an untrusting reputation, yes. But it all worked. Maybe not the best approach. But again, being believed or not on the DU bug has no effect on what we're doing tomorrow.

I also see where Alan and all his AndrewG wisdom is still hung up on the RV. Fact is, if we cashed out everything we have in retirement funds I could buy two of those stupid things, with money from our careers. He couldn't see that of course because he pours all his into alimony payments and the poker machines.

Regarding why I said what Kane/Nestor did was illegal: first, silence is not golden in every scenario. These guys clearly did something I still believe was illegal--using other people's pre-existing vp winners to collect many of their jackpots on. I never did and would never do that. THAT'S the main reason for what I said on this forum.

PS: go back and read the Wired article. I just told Mike one of the few things they got right is how the bug flowed freely in at least 99 released versions of IGT GameKings between 2002-mid 2009. If I recall, it said the bug was like a cockroach, infecting every version of software released until caught. That should help.

but the double up feature that you describe that's always on with the arrows pointing down came out way before 2002. I'm not a hundred percent sure when the don't ask me again version came out but I never saw that version until after 2009 as a matter of fact I want to say I didn't even notice it until about 2012.

In light of that information, I'm even more surprised about how little Shack knew about the Double-Up...he seemed pretty clueless in the interview.

I think you misunderstood what Mike said. I took it, as an AP Mike saw no value in doubling up any win, so he never pressed yes when offered. AP stands for advantage player. That means +EV plays. a 50/50 bet is not +EV. all it does is increase variance.


I also wouldn't count on the fact that Mike knew so little about this play. I suspect he knew a lot more than he let on. Mike was playing the part of the interviewer. His job, as he saw it, was to act as though he knew nothing about the play to get Rob to explain it in as much detail as possible so people could decide forthemselves whether Rob was credible or not. And he did that.

But now that the interview is over, I would like to hear the interviewer's opinion on the subject. But that's just me.

I kind of hate when people say it is 50/50. When it most certainly is not thru a series of consecutive attempts. MustangSally even made a very good case on how it is a house advantage on the first attempt in this thread on the WoV.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/ques.../2/#post465155

Mustang Sally 1 of probably 200 or so quality posters WOV has lost over the years. I wonder why??

[Rob.Singer]

I'm not even going to waste time on it.

All joking, put downs, or whether he's telling the truth or not aside, I really don't care. It's not going to affect my life whatsoever.

Once in a while you post something that has a lot of sense to it. This to me is one of those.

[AxelWolf]

Questions to Rob:

1) Would you be willing to call the IRS and have them send you a tax return from one of those years, and then scan and post the relevant parts here (complete with IRS stamps/markings)? Obviously you can redact the parts with your SSN or whatever.

2) Alternatively, can you show a proof of purchase for that RV, or some kind of proof that you are the registered owner?

3) Did you or did you not pay with a players card when you did this trick?

4) How many casinos did you do this at, and how often did you visit the same casino?

5) You said in the video that you got a few $100k winners using this trick. If you were so worried about getting in trouble, which you seemed to be, why did you hit these machines for such high denomination wins, where the chance of them examining your play was higher?

Rob said he did not ever use a player's card when playing the double up bug. I believe he said he used his players card after the fact to put some cover play in at the casino.

[AxelWolf]

axel: First, as I told Mike today, the reason I released this info to you was because after 15+ years of being totally silent on something of this magnitude, I HAD to let it out. I was a professional video poker player...it was necessary to tell someone--even a top critic. Secondary is whether anyone would believe me or not. The cover-up lying for all the years gave me an untrusting reputation, yes. But it all worked. Maybe not the best approach. But again, being believed or not on the DU bug has no effect on what we're doing tomorrow.

I also see where Alan and all his AndrewG wisdom is still hung up on the RV. Fact is, if we cashed out everything we have in retirement funds I could buy two of those stupid things, with money from our careers. He couldn't see that of course because he pours all his into alimony payments and the poker machines.

Regarding why I said what Kane/Nestor did was illegal: first, silence is not golden in every scenario. These guys clearly did something I still believe was illegal--using other people's pre-existing vp winners to collect many of their jackpots on. I never did and would never do that. THAT'S the main reason for what I said on this forum.

PS: go back and read the Wired article. I just told Mike one of the few things they got right is how the bug flowed freely in at least 99 released versions of IGT GameKings between 2002-mid 2009. If I recall, it said the bug was like a cockroach, infecting every version of software released until caught. That should help.

but the double up feature that you describe that's always on with the arrows pointing down came out way before 2002. I'm not a hundred percent sure when the don't ask me again version came out but I never saw that version until after 2009 as a matter of fact I want to say I didn't even notice it until about 2012.

In light of that information, I'm even more surprised about how little Shack knew about the Double-Up...he seemed pretty clueless in the interview.

I think you misunderstood what Mike said. I took it, as an AP Mike saw no value in doubling up any win, so he never pressed yes when offered. AP stands for advantage player. That means +EV plays. a 50/50 bet is not +EV. all it does is increase variance.


I also wouldn't count on the fact that Mike knew so little about this play. I suspect he knew a lot more than he let on. Mike was playing the part of the interviewer. His job, as he saw it, was to act as though he knew nothing about the play to get Rob to explain it in as much detail as possible so people could decide forthemselves whether Rob was credible or not. And he did that.

But now that the interview is over, I would like to hear the interviewer's opinion on the subject. But that's just me.

I kind of hate when people say it is 50/50. When it most certainly is not thru a series of consecutive attempts. MustangSally even made a very good case on how it is a house advantage on the first attempt in this thread on the WoV.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/ques.../2/#post465155

Once you get to that point it's 50/50. Assuming You're playing a break-even game it's 50/50.

[Rob.Singer]

I hope you don't lose any MORE sleep over this kew.

Can I ask you, do you think this interview went well, Rob?

You postponed your summer trip and plans 2 weeks for this interview, so it must have been important to you.

Yes I believe it went well considering I was expecting only to test how the software worked today. I rushed back to the house after riding my bike---I do not wear a helmet and I do use straight pipes. It takes a bit to gather yourself after coming in from that. As far as the questions & overall content I'm satisfied with most of what I said, but I felt the questions could have been tougher.

We did postpone our trip but there are other things at work here that also made doing so worthwhile.

[Ozzy]

I think overall the interview went well Rob, I was expecting you to tell everybody to wise up.

[Rob.Singer]

In light of that information, I'm even more surprised about how little Shack knew about the Double-Up...he seemed pretty clueless in the interview.

I think you misunderstood what Mike said. I took it, as an AP Mike saw no value in doubling up any win, so he never pressed yes when offered. AP stands for advantage player. That means +EV plays. a 50/50 bet is not +EV. all it does is increase variance.


I also wouldn't count on the fact that Mike knew so little about this play. I suspect he knew a lot more than he let on. Mike was playing the part of the interviewer. His job, as he saw it, was to act as though he knew nothing about the play to get Rob to explain it in as much detail as possible so people could decide forthemselves whether Rob was credible or not. And he did that.

But now that the interview is over, I would like to hear the interviewer's opinion on the subject. But that's just me.

I would say there's almost zero chance Mike gives his opinion on whether or not he thinks that Rob played this, unless Rob insists on it. And even then, I don't think we would get a yes or no answer.

Mike has been more than fair to me on this, seeing that I'm a banned member on his forum. I can't see him rendering an opinion without feeling he's offending someone so I don't expect we'd see a firm answer.

But I believe he, like yourself and others, are sitting on the toilet seat pushing REALLY hard trying to get a piece of information to come out, whether from me or elsewhere, that can be used to discredit what I did. That's where mickey's been different about how and why he sees things. He's able to add up all the things I've said and compare them to my history in order to come to his best conclusion. It's also why I would look forward to my answering your questions in another interview in a face-to-face setting. Tougher questions = tougher answers. I'm also much more comfortable in person.

[The Boz]

I think you misunderstood what Mike said. I took it, as an AP Mike saw no value in doubling up any win, so he never pressed yes when offered. AP stands for advantage player. That means +EV plays. a 50/50 bet is not +EV. all it does is increase variance.


I also wouldn't count on the fact that Mike knew so little about this play. I suspect he knew a lot more than he let on. Mike was playing the part of the interviewer. His job, as he saw it, was to act as though he knew nothing about the play to get Rob to explain it in as much detail as possible so people could decide forthemselves whether Rob was credible or not. And he did that.

But now that the interview is over, I would like to hear the interviewer's opinion on the subject. But that's just me.

I would say there's almost zero chance Mike gives his opinion on whether or not he thinks that Rob played this, unless Rob insists on it. And even then, I don't think we would get a yes or no answer.

Mike has been more than fair to me on this, seeing that I'm a banned member on his forum. I can't see him rendering an opinion without feeling he's offending someone so I don't expect we'd see a firm answer.

But I believe he, like yourself and others, are sitting on the toilet seat pushing REALLY hard trying to get a piece of information to come out, whether from me or elsewhere, that can be used to discredit what I did. That's where mickey's been different about how and why he sees things. He's able to add up all the things I've said and compare them to my history in order to come to his best conclusion. It's also why I would look forward to my answering your questions in another interview in a face-to-face setting. Tougher questions = tougher answers. I'm also much more comfortable in person.

I watched it and believe you came off OK but I don’t believe it changed anything for anyone. I don’t believe you care about that and seem to be ok with things that way.

What are your thoughts on Dan’s questions? They seem fair to try and respond to and at least one or 2 shouldn’t be that hard. I would think you would enjoy sticking it to some of your detractors, but maybe that isn’t important to you anyone. And you are fine with the uncertainty.

And I do think JB had it right when most of us will live either way. Unless RED is right, then we are all dead in the next 6 weeks.

[Rob.Singer]

Questions to Rob:

1) Would you be willing to call the IRS and have them send you a tax return from one of those years, and then scan and post the relevant parts here (complete with IRS stamps/markings)? Obviously you can redact the parts with your SSN or whatever.

2) Alternatively, can you show a proof of purchase for that RV, or some kind of proof that you are the registered owner?

3) Did you or did you not pay with a players card when you did this trick?

4) How many casinos did you do this at, and how often did you visit the same casino?

5) You said in the video that you got a few $100k winners using this trick. If you were so worried about getting in trouble, which you seemed to be, why did you hit these machines for such high denomination wins, where the chance of them examining your play was higher?

1. Already tried a year ago. My daughter's ex is an IRS agent/area mgr. and I asked him. It's too long ago, records are destroyed unless there's criminal activity involved.

2. Sure I can show proof that I am the buyer of the RV but I'm not going to. How many here would immediately claim "a number looks funny!--it's photoshopped!" or "ha, he could have created the invoice yesterday!"? People needing to discredit it would discredit it somehow. And as I said in the interview, it's also proof that I had a good job when I worked. I could have used those funds for it if I chose to. The fact that I didn't means nothing, it resolves nothing, and it's really nobody's business.

3. Read axel's reply to this. Players card not used until after a win, losing 5% purposely at the highest denom.

4. I played every major casino in the state. I estimate one visit/casino every 3-5 months, depending on where I was in my goal to avg. $10,000/week. Not every win was huge and in fact, most weren't. There's a lot more 25c thru $5 machines than $1 thru $10 or $25 machines.

5. My mindset was to play without worrying. People who wilt are ineffective. The worry came after I left casinos but it passed quickly. I hit large jackpots playing my strategy in the past and multiple jackpots on the same machines. There was never any trouble or reviews that I saw. When you hit these large winners, they usually have a tech come over and scroll thru the screens to make sure nothing was tampered with physically or electronically. And nothing was. Plus, now we know any notion that upstairs re-runs videos of players who hit one jackpot let alone many, was completely disspelled by the play of Kane and Nestor.

[Rob.Singer]

I would say there's almost zero chance Mike gives his opinion on whether or not he thinks that Rob played this, unless Rob insists on it. And even then, I don't think we would get a yes or no answer.

Mike has been more than fair to me on this, seeing that I'm a banned member on his forum. I can't see him rendering an opinion without feeling he's offending someone so I don't expect we'd see a firm answer.

But I believe he, like yourself and others, are sitting on the toilet seat pushing REALLY hard trying to get a piece of information to come out, whether from me or elsewhere, that can be used to discredit what I did. That's where mickey's been different about how and why he sees things. He's able to add up all the things I've said and compare them to my history in order to come to his best conclusion. It's also why I would look forward to my answering your questions in another interview in a face-to-face setting. Tougher questions = tougher answers. I'm also much more comfortable in person.

I watched it and believe you came off OK but I don’t believe it changed anything for anyone. I don’t believe you care about that and seem to be ok with things that way.

What are your thoughts on Dan’s questions? They seem fair to try and respond to and at least one or 2 shouldn’t be that hard. I would think you would enjoy sticking it to some of your detractors, but maybe that isn’t important to you anyone. And you are fine with the uncertainty.

And I do think JB had it right when most of us will live either way. Unless RED is right, then we are all dead in the next 6 weeks.

I just did reply to Dan.

I don't dwell on sticking it to anybody any more. Can't do that forever. My story got out, that's what I needed to do, and leave the rest to the individuals. What I got most out of working this play is not the money, as odd as that may sound. It's how I feel whenever I walk into any Nevada casino. It's like I'm completely in charge, even though I no longer am. The memories are incomparable.

[AxelWolf]

Rob, I Tried quoting you but I think I timed out because I got a phone call.

You can probably figure out what post I was quoting, I'm too lazy to go look it up at this point.

You describe how it worked on all the various different types of machines. The one you mostly describe was the one that said "don't ask me again"

What If it's proven that it wasn't even possible on anything but one chipset/type of machine what would you say to that? Again, if it's only available on one chipset if I would have to come to the conclusion but you're not telling the truth. There's no reason to talk about the other double up's on machines that it doesn't pertain to. And again, if it was available on those other machines/ chipsets that you described, I would have to say that greatly adds credibility to your story.

Whatever the case, I voiced my Strong opinion and said it was a terrible idea for Mike do this interview, especially without more investigation on his part and not knowing exactly how it works. How could he possibly challenge you on anything? He didn't even bring up the whole Alan Mendelson thing. The only thing that this accomplished as far as the double up bug goes was start more debate after the interview(just kind of f***** up anyways, since you can't even post on that forum.) I don't like that, because everything is now tainted. Going forward you now you have the ability to think about everything and come up with an answer from behind the computer. Truthful or not, I don't like that because it always leaves room for people to believe you had time to think about your answer and concoct something or do further research before you answer. The interview went nowhere and it was thoroughly disappointing on most aspects, but a few. Mike brought up a few things that he needed to push more and challenge your answers.

The one thing I did find very interesting is the fact that you admitted that had you kept playing your VP betting system, you probably would have lost. I think that's the most substantial thing we got out of the interview. You should certainly feel bad if anybody did lose money trying to use your system and if they can prove that, you should repay them their money. I don't know how one could prove that. I'm wondering if someone could successfully sue you over that? How many people did purchase your books?

If we find out the double up bug feature was only available on one Chip set I would have to conclude that you're not telling the truth. Someone I know that works in the industry, they said to their knowledge it was only available on one chipset. Whenever someone says "to their knowledge" it ends up leaving doubt. However, someone knows the answer to this. I'm sure there are plenty of people that have those machines at their house that were purchased prior to the update. There's someone on Wizard of Vegas that claims to have one of these machines. I asked him to send me a video of the double which process. I can't remember exactly what he said I just know it was a let-down that seems like it was more interested I'm trying to hit a royal * shrug shoulders.

Hey, how come we never got a goddamn tour of that RV?
I certainly hope that isn't your computer room, it looks thoroughly depressing.


I'm a bit annoyed that at the how this was all fast tracked without any real perpetration.

[accountinquestion]

Here's the video in case some of you didn't see it:

How do you get a t-shirt with a collar so tight your sagging neck completely obscures the collar at times. "I've heard about your RV" says the interviewer. Lol Rob Singer rolls eyes uncomfortably. rofl. I can't watch 45 minutes of this as I need to do shit, but one of these days for the full chuckle it is happening.

[MaxPen]

Here's the video in case some of you didn't see it:

How do you get a t-shirt with a collar so tight your sagging neck completely obscures the collar at times. "I've heard about your RV" says the interviewer. Lol Rob Singer rolls eyes uncomfortably. rofl. I can't watch 45 minutes of this as I need to do shit, but one of these days for the full chuckle it is happening.

That eyeroll is just Rob trying to figure out how to turn the hooptie Winnebago camper in the daughter's driveway into a $1.5 million Newell.......As he hides in the darkened room from his wife spewing nonsense. This shit is GOAT

[kewlJ]

Questions to Rob:

1) Would you be willing to call the IRS and have them send you a tax return from one of those years, and then scan and post the relevant parts here (complete with IRS stamps/markings)? Obviously you can redact the parts with your SSN or whatever.

2) Alternatively, can you show a proof of purchase for that RV, or some kind of proof that you are the registered owner?

3) Did you or did you not pay with a players card when you did this trick?

4) How many casinos did you do this at, and how often did you visit the same casino?

5) You said in the video that you got a few $100k winners using this trick. If you were so worried about getting in trouble, which you seemed to be, why did you hit these machines for such high denomination wins, where the chance of them examining your play was higher?

Ok, so here's the thing. Rob has stated here a number of times that "after 15 years of keeping this secret, he just had to tell someone". That never made sense to me. So during the interview Rob, again stated this. Mike's response....one word. "Why?" So like many of us that didn't make sense to Mike either.

So for whatever reason, after 10 years, Rob decided he just had to tell someone. Can we all agree, he would have wanted those he told to believe him. And he would have saved or planned to provide some sort of evidence right. I mean if he just had to tell people, he wouldn't want almost no one believing him right?

So Dan has now asked for the same supporting evidence that most of us have been asking for a year now, tax info. Dan has suggested Rob contact the IRS for copies of this info. Rob conveniently has a family member that works for the IRS and says that is impossible. Rob always has an answer. I don't know how that works, but that doesn't seem credible to me. I am aware that tax payers aren't required to keep copies of info for more than a certain period of time, but why wouldn't the IRS. It is not like they have to keep the actual paper documents. It would be a tiny bit of computer data. Unlimited storage ability.

But in the absence of that, we are back to how this whole second wave of interest started. Alan, suggested Rob show documentation of the RV that Rob himself claims he bought with the DU bug money. Again, that is Rob's own claim. I mean Rob couldn't even come up with a dealership when asked last week. Who wouldn't know the dealership that you supposedly made a 1.5 million dollar purchase from. Now in answer to DanDruff's request for that same info, Rob is just going with a "No, I don't want to do that".

It just is not credible that Rob just had to tell someone, so badly, but yet refuses to provide any supporting documentation that would support his extraordinary claim.

[kewlJ]

I would say there's almost zero chance Mike gives his opinion on whether or not he thinks that Rob played this, unless Rob insists on it. And even then, I don't think we would get a yes or no answer.

I don't understand this logic Axelwolf. If Mike wasn't intending to express his opinion, then all this was, was providing Rob another platform to make his claim without any kind of evidence.

[MaxPen]

I would say there's almost zero chance Mike gives his opinion on whether or not he thinks that Rob played this, unless Rob insists on it. And even then, I don't think we would get a yes or no answer.

I don't understand this logic Axelwolf. If Mike wasn't intending to express his opinion, then all this was, was providing Rob another platform to make his claim without any kind of evidence.

This was just another episode of:

As Grandpa's Dream Turns

Live from the daughter's basement.

[kewlJ]

This was just another episode of:

As Grandpa's Dream Turns

Live from the daughter's basement.

That house that Rob claims he paid cash for from the DU bug, is sooo far underwater with the current financing that I wouldn't go anywhere near the basement.

[slingshot]

The only interesting post here is Axel's catch of Rob saying his betting system would have lost over time. Does this mean from AP style of playing or his actual play with win goal/loss limit style of play? I believe this to be an answer of supreme importance.

[LMR]

Here's the video in case some of you didn't see it: