Objective proof?

[kewlJ]

Why on earth would any reasonable person think it is ok to hit a jackpot at a 25 cent level, and manipulate the machine to pay at $5 level level? .

Because the machine allows for it to be done with only using the buttons available to the player.

Your argument only holds water on the glitches where something has to be added or illegally accessed on the machine.

The DUB is a method of play made available by the manufacturer.

None of that matter one bit MaxPen. If you are in a casino playing 25 cent bonus poker and hit 4 aces for 400 credits or $100 and you push some buttons that have the machine pay you a much greater amount, you know that is wrong! If you don't KNOW that is wrong, all I can say is you were raised differently than I.

[accountinquestion]

Why on earth would any reasonable person think it is ok to hit a jackpot at a 25 cent level, and manipulate the machine to pay at $5 level level? .

Because the machine allows for it to be done with only using the buttons available to the player.

Your argument only holds water on the glitches where something has to be added or illegally accessed on the machine.

The DUB is a method of play made available by the manufacturer.

None of that matter one bit MaxPen. If you are in a casino playing 25 cent bonus poker and hit 4 aces for 400 credits or $100 and you push some buttons that have the machine pay you a much greater amount, you know that is wrong! If you don't KNOW that is wrong, all I can say is you were raised differently than I.

If it is your buddy or some entity you have a connection with then sure. If it is a corporation it isn't really upon you to police their systems. Casinos may have rigged some laws in their locality to make it illegal but illegality is not the same as morality.

I can go into stories how they've fucked over patrons. Seen it at BJ tables. They only look after people to the extent it affects their bottom line. Why should it be any different with the patrons?

Anyway.. gl with counting bj.

[MaxPen]

Why on earth would any reasonable person think it is ok to hit a jackpot at a 25 cent level, and manipulate the machine to pay at $5 level level? .

Because the machine allows for it to be done with only using the buttons available to the player.

Your argument only holds water on the glitches where something has to be added or illegally accessed on the machine.

The DUB is a method of play made available by the manufacturer.

None of that matter one bit MaxPen. If you are in a casino playing 25 cent bonus poker and hit 4 aces for 400 credits or $100 and you push some buttons that have the machine pay you a much greater amount, you know that is wrong! If you don't KNOW that is wrong, all I can say is you were raised differently than I.

It's no more wrong than sitting at a table with a flashing dealer and not informing them. Or not informing a casino of a mis set pay table.

I'm not that concerned with morals when playing in the devil's playground. The only thing I concern myself with is risk of going to jail.

[redietz]

The only contribution I can make to this is from the sports gambling milieu. If you have a winning ticket, and the casino employee cashing the ticket makes an error and pays you some multiple of the actual winnings, when accounting catches that, you do have to pay back the overpayment. If you refuse, you will be charged. The reasons for this are pretty obvious, but once you have established that's the law for person/person transactions, then I'm assuming that it automatically applies to machine glitches as well.

MrV can chime in with some expertise here.

Now that sports wagering can be done online or from kiosks, this has some relevance. If a kiosk multiplies some winner, and I cash out my account, you can be assured the casino is coming after me.

I'd take the money but be prepared to deal with the casino later.

There's a law that says when merchandise is sent to you in the mail and you didnt order it, you can keep it as a gift.

Honestly, I would be more likely to take the money from a bank ATM and hope nobody caught the error, than I would be to try to take the money from a casino. Yeah, if the casino multiplies a 1K hit by a couple thousand, I would be tempted to cash out and grab the next plane to somewhere without an extradition arrangement, but if I have a good relationship with a particular sportsbook, I'm not going to try to exploit some glitch that doubled or tripled or increased by 10X a 1K win.

I'm not sure at what tipping point my greed outweighs my reputation, but it's at minimum in the several million range, and it may be significantly higher than that. The older I get, the higher it goes.

[kewlJ]

MaxPen and AIQ, I share your view that the casino industry is a nasty, vile, predatory industry. I don't think that gives me the right to cross lines that I know in my heart are wrong. If you feel otherwise, I guess that is your thing.

Is it ok to murder someone if you have decided they are a "bad" person? Is that the standard now?

[kewlJ]

Anyway.. gl with counting bj.

So what is that supposed to mean? Why do people, including a very successful and pretty well known friend of mine constantly look down on me because I choose to count cards for a living and at least until recently, my main means of advantage play?

So happens because of circumstances everyone knows, this year card counting has accounted for just about a third of my income so far as I have limited my play, slowly increasing back my rotation. So I am capable of doing other forms of AP. I just like card counting and making a living by that means.

[Alan Mendelson]

Redietz it's funny you mentioned taking money from an ATM.

Many years ago, before ATMs took cash deposits, I used a Bank of America ATM to deposit my paycheck. There was no direct deposit at the time. I'd put my paycheck in an envelope and put the envelope into the ATM.

Two days later my balance would be updated.

Surprisingly my balance was for an extra $200. So I called the bank.

The bank told me there was $200 in cash in the envelope with my paycheck.

I knew it wasn't mine and I told the bank that. The bank insisted it was my $200 and they don't make these mistakes. But I knew some teller made a mistake and put $200 from someone else's envelope into my account.

For FIVE YEARS I excluded $200 from my balance waiting for the bank to catch the error.

They never did. After 5 years I finally added that $200 to my balance.

[Alan Mendelson]

Anyway.. gl with counting bj.

So what is that supposed to mean? Why do people, including a very successful and pretty well known friend of mine constantly look down on me because I choose to count cards for a living and at least until recently, my main means of advantage play?

So happens because of circumstances everyone knows, this year card counting has accounted for just about a third of my income so far as I have limited my play, slowly increasing back my rotation. So I am capable of doing other forms of AP. I just like card counting and making a living by that means.

What's the difference between playing when the count is in your favor and using a DUB?

[MaxPen]

MaxPen and AIQ, I share your view that the casino industry is a nasty, vile, predatory industry. I don't think that gives me the right to cross lines that I know in my heart are wrong. If you feel otherwise, I guess that is your thing.

Is it ok to murder someone if you have decided they are a "bad" person? Is that the standard now?

If you find a DUB situation that you morally can't handle feel free to call me and we will work out a deal. I will take the money all day long.

As far as the murder question. Don't governments make it legal to kill "bad" people? Ever heard of war?

[Alan Mendelson]

Let me ask a whacky question. What if IGT intentionally installed the DUB hoping a player would discover it? Would it still be illegal, kewlj?

[Alan Mendelson]

Executions are homicides say the coroners.

[kewlJ]

What's the difference between playing when the count is in your favor and using a DUB?

Give me a brake Alan. Are you seriously asking this question, or just being YOU?

In blackjack the game flows between rounds that are at a player advantage, and rounds at various house advantage levels. Many more at the house advantage. That it the natural flow of the game depending on what cards have been played. And that is the case whether a player is tracking the cards (counting) or not. THAT is the natural way the game goes.

A player using his mind to remember which cards have come out can not possible be cheating. And every case that has gone to court that I am aware of the ruling has been that card counting is not cheating. It is thinking.

Now if one of the parties, player or casino is doing something to manipulate that very natural flow, things like clumping cards or removing cards, that is a completely different thing. THAT is cheating. Card counters do nothing to manipulate anything. They simply remember and track which cards have been played, much the same as the normal strategy for many card games like bridge and pinochle.

[redietz]

MaxPen and AIQ, I share your view that the casino industry is a nasty, vile, predatory industry. I don't think that gives me the right to cross lines that I know in my heart are wrong. If you feel otherwise, I guess that is your thing.

Is it ok to murder someone if you have decided they are a "bad" person? Is that the standard now?

If you find a DUB situation that you morally can't handle feel free to call me and we will work out a deal. I will take the money all day long.

As far as the murder question. Don't governments make it legal to kill "bad" people? Ever heard of war?

This is actually, a rarity for here, an interesting discussion. For example, my hesitancy to exploit some clerical or machine error is, in large part, based on my non-anonymity in doing so. It has reputational consequences (look at Dietz trying to be a poor man's Phil Ivey) and it would have practical consequences. I've posted here in the past about the occasional odds error which occurs sometimes with futures. When I find one, I generally exploit it, which is a kind of "double up bug" BEFORE the fact. I'm getting double or triple or ten times the odds most places are offering. So I DO exploit it, but I NEVER exploit it for the max amount or to try to cripple some sports book. I consider it an old kind of savvy -- if you don't try to cripple a place, they notice it. When the smoke clears sometimes on a futures error, there will be half a dozen people who did it and went whole hog when their normal bets are very modest. And then there will be me, who bet something but not nearly the max, and my normal bets are bigger than the average person's. So what results is either the sports book (1) recognizes I'm not trying to slam them or (2) the sports book sees my betting a modest amount on the error as I don't really know what I'm doing. Either conclusion is a good one for me.

If I'm truly anonymous, and I'm confronted with a double up bug opportunity, would I do it? Sure. But that's a straw man argument as far as I'm concerned because nobody is actually anonymous in a casino.

[redietz]

Let me ask a whacky question. What if IGT intentionally installed the DUB hoping a player would discover it? Would it still be illegal, kewlj?

I've always assumed, if there were a double up bug, that it's likely someone installed it intentionally. Alan, you have some Italian entrepreneurial history. Didn't they educate and seed governmental and regulatory offices with their people, with the eye to the long haul? Why not educate and then seed gaming companies with their people?

[kewlJ]

Let me ask a whacky question. What if IGT intentionally installed the DUB hoping a player would discover it? Would it still be illegal, kewlj?

"What if"? What if the easter bunny were real?

The only part of that question I have any interest in discussing would be the possibility that some IGT tech intentionally installed the DU bug so that he, or associates (friends or relatives) could take advantage of it. I would assume investigators looked for any connection between Kane and Nestor and someone who may have installed the system. But who knows?

[MisterV]

Seems to me that what Kane and Nestor did was not a crime as they did nothing other than what they were permitted to do, i.e. push buttons.

Also it is not as if Kane was trying to figure out how to cheat the machine; it sort of just fell into his lap and he was savvy enough to recognize, follow up and run with it.

In reality we all recognize it as a form of cheating or perhaps "unfair advantage" as opposed to being permitted advantage play, but I suspect there was no statute then in existence that applied, so they walked.

[monet]

MaxPen and AIQ, I share your view that the casino industry is a nasty, vile, predatory industry. I don't think that gives me the right to cross lines that I know in my heart are wrong. If you feel otherwise, I guess that is your thing.

Is it ok to murder someone if you have decided they are a "bad" person? Is that the standard now?

Is it ok for Ukrainian Soldiers to kill Russian Soldiers?
Is it ok for you to eat the food you eat because of the 200 Million people that had to die so you can enjoy the Land and Freedom of this country?
Do you realize the prison rock that you live on in the middle of space and time is Murder Island?
How many millions of animals, plants and insects have to be slaughtered daily so you can enjoy your Fucking Salad?
Newsflash... you chose to live your life working inside a Cesspool and Den of Iniquity.
Stop trying to act Holy.
Faggot!

[kewlJ]

Seems to me that what Kane and Nestor did was not a crime as they did nothing other than what they were permitted to do, i.e. push buttons.

Also it is not as if Kane was trying to figure out how to cheat the machine; it sort of just fell into his lap and he was savvy enough to recognize, follow up and run with it.

In reality we all recognize it as a form of cheating or perhaps "unfair advantage" as opposed to being permitted advantage play, but I suspect there was no statute then in existence that applied, so they walked.

Interesting MrV.

What is the legal definition of theft? Isn't there some wording about knowingly accepting that which a person isn't entitled to?

However, I go back to Kane and Nestor were never charged with theft. I think that was the prosecutorial mistake.

[smurgerburger]

So you don't know what theft is but you think the prosecutors made a mistake in not charging them with theft.

This topic has been done to death. You can ask BobN. Machine glitch exploits like this are not illegal.

Your belief that you "know it's wrong" has no bearing on anything.

[kewlJ]

Is it ok for Ukrainian Soldiers to kill Russian Soldiers?
Is it ok for you to eat the food you eat because of the 200 Million people that had to die so you can enjoy the Land and Freedom of this country?
Do you realize the prison rock that you live on in the middle of space and time is Murder Island?
How many millions of animals, plants and insects have to be slaughtered daily so you can enjoy your Fucking Salad?
Newsflash... you chose to live your life working inside a Cesspool and Den of Iniquity.
Stop trying to act Holy.
Faggot!

Old Porkchop is all fired up!

I am not trying to act holy. I am anything but holy. But I do know right from wrong and so do you and MaxPen and others.

Now just curious as to why you felt the need to include "Faggot"? Would you like to discuss homosexuality? Would you like to discuss my homosexuality? I am game. I have been fooling around a bit with a dude in the building. I have a BF but we aren't married or anything and have never committed to anything, so I don't feel it is cheating. The guy has a beautiful body and nice cock, so.... What else would you like to discuss porkchop?