Rob, here's the disconnect: you are a high roller with a $173,000 bankroll, and I'm not. You play $10 and higher VP and I don't. You sometimes lose as much as $33,000 as part of your normal routine and I can't even imagine losing that much on a trip, and I can't even imagine having that much cash in my pockets. So you may be right when you say I want to protect my offers by playing by the rules.
Points well taken Rob. Chummy is a good term, but I sincerely believe my host and I are actually friends now. We meet in Hawaii when he visits and he always takes good care of my wife and I in Vegas. I actually like and trust my host! I completely understand he has a job to do and by taking the Free Play I am falling for CET's Evil Trap or being a "sucker". Anyhow I will enjoy my Free Play win or lose! I had no idea you were a whale! $173,000 bankroll! I only have a fraction of your bank, and go to Vegas a mere three times a year. At your level of play and frequency, you must get airfare, rooms, food, shows, cruise, shopping, limo...more power to you!
Alan; Again. loving this forum and may report my success in turning the $1000 Free Play into $10,000. A $10 hard 6 or 8 parlayed 3 times gets me there but someone said the Free Play is only accepted on even money bets. I will rnjoy my vacation time whatever happens. Life is Great!
For table games, the free play is indeed only good on even money bets. The one time I used free play at craps it was for the passline and come bets. However... that frees up your other money for odds and place bets and hardways.
When you go to the cage to get your $1,000 of free play, ask for the smallest denominations possible. They will give you slips of paper that resemble ATM receipts. These are the actual "free play coupons" for table games. I think when the amount of free play is $1,000 the slips are in $50 or $100 denominations. Try to get them in $25 and $50 denominations. Most tables at Caesars are $25 tables, though they do have $10 tables sometimes.
Compared to what I've played Alan, that's chump change to many others who gamble. So it IS all relative.Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
You need to get the "playing by the rules" off of your mind. We all do that, except for those who cheat--like the bunches who got themselves thrown out of the Revel this month. Taking complete advantage of every offer afforded is 100% within the rules. Why? Because of the fact that you keep on dodging....that every offer is only based upon play you've already given them. No casino sends out anything to someone who has not aready earned it.
And please....STOP FEELING BAD FOR THE CASINOS.
Rob... when you take advantage of certain offers you are not cheating the casinos. After all, they are sending you the offers. But what you are doing is cheating yourself out of getting more offers in the future. This is what is escaping you and is not sinking in. You can milk all of the offers now, but when they see your play wasn't as expected, and your spending in the hotel wasn't as expected, they will cut you from future offers.
This is not an issue of being "nice" to the casinos. This is managing your offers properly to keep them coming.
As an example: When I made a quickie trip to Caesars several weeks ago I did not do it using an offer of free play, even though the free play was available to me. Why? Because I knew that my play was going to be at the very low end and I didn't want the "offer" charged against me. By not taking that offer, I kept up my "average play" for offers and helped to preserve them. Sure I could have taken the $1,000 of free play that was available, but why? I went with a $500 budget just to throw some craps. (I happened to have won at craps and at video on that quickie trip, so I had a profit and preserved my offer and average-play for another time.)
You are a strong advocate of money management... well, this is "offer management."
Will do Allan. I will try to get my $1000 Free Play in as small a denomination as allowed and bet it on the Pass Line. Although this would belong in an entirely different thread, I personally dislike Pass Line bets although all the Gambling Books say its the best bet it the casino. Its only the best bet on the come out roll and it pays only even money. You are completely right that $1000 Free Play will free up my other money odds , place and hardway bets!
Also for another thread: My favorite power press is start with a $30 6 and 8: 1st hit power press $1 to $66, 2nd hit power press $7 and your are in black chips at $150! 3rd hit, same bet or go to $300. From then on its on to the table limit! thanks again Allan. Great Forum!
You guys are making this too complicated.
Gas cards are Shell Gas Cards with no catch. They're the same ones you can buy from Shell, and I don't believe they have any expiration date.
Reel Rewards are free play on machines. They will sometimes allow you to substitute it for table game vouchers.
Free play must be "run through" once to turn into cash. What do I mean by that?
If you are playing $25/hand video poker ($5 machine on max-credits) you would have to play 40 hands before being able to cash out fully if you had $1000 in free play.
If you are playing table games, you keep playing until the vouchers "lose" -- that is, until you have none left.
So, as Alan already said, if you are planning to gamble at least $1000 while on the trip anyway, take the freeplay, as it will be a substitute for $1000 in real money that you would otherwise gamble.
If not, just take the gas card.
Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com
Russ, it sounds like you enjoy your craps play, and it sounds like your host makes yur Vegas trips enjoyable.Originally Posted by russkg
However, I can guarantee you that it's unlikely that your host is actually your friend. I guess it's possible, but in reality, hosts are very predatory people who possess a "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" mentality. Your host is likely nice to you because he earns a nice commission on your expected losses in craps. Note that I say EXPECTED LOSSES because that's how they typically get paid. The casino determines by mathematical formula how much you're expected to lose (based upon your skill level, game you're playing, hours played, and average bet), and then they get a piece of that if they arranged your trip. Your actual losses often don't fit into the equation. If you arrange the trip yourself (online or through the 1-800 number), they get nothing. If they arrange your trip and you end up not playing, they look bad to their boss and get very frustrated with you (even if they do a good job hiding it for awhile).
The $1000 Gas Card/Freeplay offer is a very standard offer that Caesar's is giving this summer. Not everyone is getting as much as you (I am only getting $300, for example). but your host did nothing special for you. This was generated at the corporate level, and I'm surprised you didn't already get a mailer for it. Your host "offered" it to you because he didn't have to do anything special. That is, your comped rooms and freeplay will be coming from the Total Rewards corporate budget, and NOT from the host's "pool" of what he has to give away!
It is true that some hosts are nicer/better/more generous than others. Sadly, the more generous ones eventually lose their jobs.
You can safely ignore Rob Singer. The guy is a crackpot, and I somewhat doubt his claims of being a whale.
Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com
Aloha Dan! Are you saying all those mac nut chocolates, cocktails, dinner, golf etc etc that our Host and us enjoy together in Hawaii were all part of my hosts master plan to seduce me into gambling more so he can make more commission? Ouch! Oh well, I guess I am naive but win or lose, I really do enjoy my time in Vegas and actually believed that my host was a "friend". He's been my Host for a while and I thought he was generous? Hmmmm...
As you have correctly interpreted I do love craps and if I catch a hand I will turn that $1000 free play into something more than the sure thing $1000 Shell Gas. I started this thread and thrilled that it has lasted this long and enjoy all the posting even Rob's.
I think its kind of a shame that almost everything in life now days is based on "mathematical formula how much you're expected to lose etc" I am saddened that almost everything now days is quantified and analyzed. I guess that's Capitalism? Try buying Auto or Life Insurance: your premiums are based on a questionnaire and history which quantifies and analyzes your responses then gives you a premium. I am old fashioned and enjoy life day to day. I dont appreciate being constantly monitored and quantified. Such is life in the information age!
Perhaps thats why i love craps: despite the odds, despite the math, on any given day on some random crap table, some ordinary joe or jane can roll fifteen 8's, 4 hard 6's, a 6 point Fire Bet or roll for 60 minutes despite the odds.
Mahalo Dan for your insight.
And thanks again Alan for running this forum. Love it!
Dan Druff: Crackpot or not, it is worth noting that Rob Singer has on numerous occasions advised people to avoid casino hosts altogether and to rely only on the computer generated casino mailers.Originally Posted by Dan Druff
I have to question this. Hosts can become your best friend. When I was on kidney dialysis my host asked me if he could volunteer to be a kidney donor for me. We were the same blood type. His offer was sincere, but at the time I was waiting to hear from my siblings. However, I received a cadaver transplant of both a kidney and pancreas and that was something no living donor could give me.Originally Posted by Dan Druff
Wow Alan! That's heavy. I would definitely consider your host a friend. Life is great! So glad that you got a second chance!
Not sure my host would go that far but I hope he considers me a friend as I do him and not just TR#17500898734 with a mathematical expected loss rate of $12,498 per stay...
On my last trip, one of my guests, who had a comped room which my host arranged, paid cash for his F&B balance on the room. A few weeks later, I received a check from Caesars for the amount that my guest paid. I checked with my host and he apologized for the "mix-up" and got the amount reimbursed. I didn't even ask him to do it. I guess he checked my guest rooms accounts and wanted to take care of it. I still like to believe that my friendly host goes that extra mile for me and not my expected losses. LOL!!! I leave for Vegas next Friday! Looking forward to it!
I don't understand why the "advantage players" + Rob Singer are so critical of hosts? I can't imagine how a host could not do more for you than you can possibly arrange on your own?
When I was a high roller I had many hosts. It seems I was a curse as 2 died and 1 was fired, and these were high level hosts. I was on a friendly basis with all of them, and always met with them if they were in Chicago for any reason. They took excellent care of me--whatever I wanted I was given, and I am not one to ask for much so I was probably entitled to a lot more. I don't know what harm it could have done to be friendly with people whose job it was to keep me happy. I also was shown heartfelt concern during a couple periods where I had severe health issues (including waiving some markers when I was almost killed in a car crash). So I agree with most of the others here that it just can't hurt to be friendly--and I know their income is contingent upon my losing--but several of my bookies were my best friends too.
By the way, at least a couple of my hosts had income based upon my theoretical loss--not my actual--so they hoped I would win as my play and therefore my theoretical would be higher.
Another positive comment in favor of my "friend" the Casino Host: If I reserve direct thru Reservations or the CET Website and utilize My Offers, I am able to reserve just a regular Room, Free Play, Free Show or what ever the CET Offer is. I've learned that by calling my friend the Host, not only do I get the CET Offers, but the Host reserves us a nice Suite. It states the Type of Suite on the reservation. One key for a Happy Marriage is separate bathrooms and thanks to my Host, the Suite always has 2 bathrooms which contributes to my Happy Marriage!
Russ, if you actually play on every trip, you are correct that making your reservation through the host is better.
However, all hosts tend to get frustrated when they make the reservation for you (even if they don't upgrade you) and you don't play. For this reason, if you're not going to play much (or at all), it's better to just use the 800 number or the website. The 800 number actually has a lot more power than the website, which often rejects your attempts to book things for flimsy reasons.
Anyway, just be aware that your host does this for a living. He/she makes money from your mathematically expected losses, and gets in trouble for over-comping you beyond what the corporation would like to see. They do have some leeway regarding what they can offer, but overall if they are comping/upgrading a lot and not getting the appropriate play, they will get fired.
regnis, when your host waived markers, I guarantee that was run by his/her superiors before doing so. A decision was probably made that you were a big enough player that it was worth eating those markers in order to get goodwill with you.
If you have an overly generous/friendly/helpful host, most likely you are losing more than you think (or are playing really negative expectation games), and they are making the correct business decision by throwing you a few bones.
Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com
I make a few trips a year to Vegas so while I am there, I always play. Thanks for your info. Because of your post I started researching a little bit about mathematically expected losses which I think is the same thing as a Theoretical Loss? Great Info. On Vegas Message Board I read about a Whale who posted about his Theo and actual wins and losses which was in the millions$ Hosts of rival casinos would fight for his action. Using his comps to golf, airfare, shopping, $3000 wine etc. Wow! Fascinating read although for some reason he stopped posting.
Anyway. I leave for Vegas this week. Going to try my Free Play and hope for a few good hands at the Crap Table. The game is great win or lose, but nothing compares to a magic heater at a Crap Table. I am dreaming and envisioning a Magic Hand like Regnis's Epic 18 8's! OMG!!! Talk about in the zone! Great Truly Legendary stuff there. What a hand!
I hate being grouped in with Rob Singer, but I guess in this case he happens to be correct. (You know what they say about the blind squirrel and the nut!)Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson
But you raise a good question, Alan.
If hosts can always do equal or more than you can on your own, why could one possibly have a problem with them?
This is actually a complicated answer, so bear with me.
Simply put, hosts live a parasitic existence in the gambling world.
The casinos provide the games, security, and provide nearly unlimited action.
The players are the ones who ultimately lose and feed the casinos money so they can continue to exist.
So where do hosts come in?
They are useless middlemen. Their entire function could be completely replaced by a computer, and in fact this has happened to some degree (with the computer-generated marketing offers/promos and the ability to accumulate RCs to comp yourself).
Think of a mosquito. You walk through the forest, it lands on you, and it sucks your blood. You walk through same forest a week later. Does the mosquito say, "Hey, I bit this guy 10 times last week. He's donated his fair share of blood. I'll move on -- he's done enough for me recently"? Of course not. Even if the mosquito was intelligent enough to reason this out, he would still bite you again. Why? Because last week is not now. He's hungry again, and he has to continue biting you for sustenance, regardless of how much blood you gave him last week. If he doesn't bite you again, he will eventually die.
Hosts, being just as parasitic as mosquitoes, are very similar.
They only care about the commission you can earn them today. What you have done for them in the past is immaterial, other than to predict future behavior. They know that gamblers can't keep losing their money forever. Heavy play six months ago does not necessarily equate to heavy play today. People go broke. People drop down in limits. People resolve to lose a lot less gambling. If you were a mega-whale for years, and a host had the ability to look into the future and see that you would lose your entire fortune and never gamble again, he would never comp you another room, no matter what you earned him previously.
Like the mosquito, the host needs to bite you (pressure you to lose money) right now. He does not want to give you a break and wait until next time. Again, like the mosquito, he doesn't know if this will be your last walk through his forest.
Let me give you a simple example.
Let's say your host wants you to achieve $100,000 coin-in per trip in order to keep comping you to the level you want.
Let's say that you travel to Vegas once per month for all of 2013 and keep around $100k coin-in, and the host is happy.
Now let's say that you get really drunk over New Year's, and to start 2014, you put in $1,000,000 coin-in. So you've just played the equivalent of 10 trips in one.
The fair thing to do here would be to let you take nine more consecutive trips without playing at all, and have no problem with it, right? Because you've played 10 trips' worth in one shot, so the next nine should come with no expectation. Indeed, that's exactly how RCs work. If you play 10 times as much (or 10 times as high), you will earn 10 times the RCs. And that's the way it should be.
But that's not how hosts work.
If he comps you the next trip, and you don't play, your host will be frustrated, but probably stay quiet. If he comps you again and you do the same thing, he will probably start pressuring you. If he comps you a third time and you don't play, he will cut you off and make you play to earn your future comps retroactively. (That is, he will make you pay up front, and then comp stuff off as you play -- which is awful!)
So basically you get the shaft by putting in a lot of action at once, and then very little (or no action) on subsequent trips. Like the mosquito, the host feels a need to keep biting, no matter how much he "ate" before!
So back to Alan's question...
Even with all of the above being true, if a host can do more for you than you can do for yourself, what's the harm in using one?
Because everything they do is centered around them being able to keep biting you (i.e. forcing you to play continuously). And you will get advice and be pressured into doing things that are not in your best interest.
Let's go back to last year, when I quickly achieved Seven Stars by a short period of frantic, high-limit (albeit positive expectation) play.
Just after I hit Seven Stars, being naive and not knowing how everything worked, I assumed that I was hot shit and could just ask a host for anything reasonable and get it.
How wrong I was.
My parents and sister came into town and wanted to see "Jersey Boys", which was playing at Paris at the time.
I called my recently-appointed host and said, "Hi, I'm a recent Seven Stars member. I'd like three comp tickets to Jersey Boys, please!"
The host said she'd look into what was available and call me back. "Sweet!", I thought. "They're at my beck and call!"
My phone rang back a few hours later. "Hi, I looked into Jersey Boys for you. I can get you three tickets in the front section tonight. The cost of those tickets is $257 each, so I'll charge $781 to your RCs, and you can pick them up from my office today."
What?!
WHAT?!
I thought to myself, "Exactly what did she do for me here? Order tickets with my own rewards credits? Not only don't I get them free, but I have to pay full price?!"
I tried to be polite about this.
"I appreciate you looking into this," I said to her, "But when I was looking for comp tickets, I was asking if you could actually comp them -- not simply subtract rewards credits that I had already earned and could spend myself in any way I wanted!"
She answered me in a way that sounded logical but still felt wrong to me.
"No, I don't think you understand," she said. "You want to burn all of your RCs as soon as possible. We are not allowed to comp you things like meals and show tickets until all RCs are used. Corporate policy. But I've looked at your level of play, and I would be totally fine comping things like this once your RCs are gone. But I can't give you any comps of my own until you spend those."
I almost pulled the trigger on the tickets and believed her, but I told her I'd think about it and call back.
I called one of my buddies who had also recently achieved Seven Stars in the same fashion I had. He said that his host had told him the same thing.
However, this still didn't sit well with me. Here I had about $2,000 worth of RCs, and she wanted me to frivolously blow them in order to get to the point where she could comp me out of her own discretionary fund. This would put me at her mercy. I didn't like it.
Lo and behold, I found that coincidentally, Total Rewards had a special going where Jersey Boys tickets (two per month) were available for free for the next few months for Seven Stars and Diamond members. My host knew nothing about these, or at least pretended not to when she spoke to me that time.
But what about the third ticket I needed? I went to the Paris box office, and found that the $257 price was the highest possible, but that they typically let Seven Stars members purchase cheaper tickets and upgrade them for free if possible. So I brought my 2-ticket voucher, paid like $170 in RCs for the third ticket, and I was given three of the best seats in the house.
My way: $170 for three great seats
Host's way: $781 for seats that couldn't have been any better
As time passed, and I became quickly more familiar with the way CET worked with their RCs, hosts, and comps, I realized that my instinct was correct.
I was an erratic-action player, meaning that some trips I would put in a lot of action (when I was by myself), yet other times I would put in very little (when my family or friends would be with me).
I realized that I was MUCH better off comping myself with accumulated RCs (and computerized Total Rewards offers) than using hosts -- except when necessary. By "necessary", I mean asking for things that I am not allowed to do myself, such as book two rooms simultaneously.
Now I can play as much or as little as I want, and I don't have to worry about some mosquito buzzing around me, waiting for his/her blood.
If you are a consistent player who puts in plenty of action, and almost never makes two consecutive host-booked trips without playing, then hosts can be of use to you.
Just remember that you're at their mercy, and that the favors will end as soon as your play drops.
Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com
So you might ask, "If computers could completely replace hosts, why don't casinos do this?"
Because gamblers like the personal, human touch. Most of them like the feeling of being treated as VIPs and being taken care of.
People like rolling into town, saying, "Hey, book me at the steakhouse tonight for 2, then get me two show tickets for later, and I'd like to order breakfast in bed tomorrow."
When you check out and find none of this on your bill, it makes you feel good. Not only didn't you pay for any of this, but you expended no effort to make any of this happen.
Some people really enjoy this.
I don't.
I like knowing how many comps I have "behind" (for the future). I like making my own reservations, and I like knowing exactly what free things I am and am not entitled to -- and whether that will affect what I can get next trip. In the Jersey Boys example, I didn't want to waste $781 on tickets when I only had $2000 in RCs total. I would rather spend that money on a few nice meals, and find one of many cheaper ways to go to the show on my own.
I like knowing that I can go to an CET property, book it on my own, stay for free, use whatever offers I have for those dates, and then use my RCs to pay for the rest.
But that's me. A lot of other gamblers would hate doing it that way. They want to feel taken care of. I'm not saying it's wrong, but that's what keeps those parasites on the CET payroll.
And you have to keep giving blood to those parasites, or they won't do anything for you.
And that's my problem.
Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com
I have a simple explanation: if you like to feel "special" while having the casino watch your every move as you LOSE so you end up feeling the casino ends up "owing you" more han you've actually earned, then hosts are the way to go. But if you are a consistent winner who instead prefers to be treated as if you don't exist, then you will receive far more in mailed and e-mailed offers generated from the marketing dept. computers for a much longer period of time, without being tracked like an animal when you show up to play.
Hosts are there for a single reason: to get their guests to lose as much as they possibly can. Period. Players who want to think their hosts are their "friends" (and Alan, that guy was giving you a mercy speech and had no intention of ever helping you out, as you bought his BS hook line & sinker) are weak, they're incapable of figuring out the system on their own, and they actually believe the people in the casino industry are there to look out for the player. The ones who've bamboozled people like Jean Scott to not only give them sappy press--but to also give them year-end gifts and tips along the way, use and abuse such fools to the extent possible, and without shame.
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