Discussing Rob Singers Systems

[arcimede$]

I found a link to the form:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4506.pdf

It allows a different address to be specified so it looks like everything is a go. All we need is Rob's agreement.

[Rob.Singer]

Alan, the groceries "in question" HERE, but have never been from the IRS, were business expenses and not whatever you mean by entertainment expenses. Put your thinking cap on. I wouldn't have tried if an IRS publication didn't allow for it under certain circumstances. There's a limitation formula, plus the taxpayer must reasonably show that taking such a deduction while conducting chat or video chat business over the Internet, saved a considerable amount in business expense compared to travel for a face-to-face meeting. You're probably giving up lots of deductions in your business. Many small business owners hire tax attorneys for this type of info. I was lucky to be able to ask my daughter's husband to actively help me with mine.

If this tax return review will make critics eat crow, then let's do it. I'm sure arci's are very simple, but mine are not due to Schedule C's, investments, several homes, etc. I'm going to request years 2001 thru 2007 because it says we can request up to 7 years and I want to rub salt in the wounds as much as possible. Arci, same year's please. I've already seen several of his more recent ones so this should be fun!

Before submitting, Alan you have to draw up the non-disclosure agreement if arci feels a need to do that. I don't. We'll need an address from Alan, and if you send me anything Alan then I'll text you my lot address in S. Dakota where I can get it forwarded to wherever I'll be.

Do we need anything else?

[Rob.Singer]

I just thought of something. My returns will prove we owned homes in two cities plus rented the apt. I think it's only fair that arci has a chance to "double down" on his claims here by us making a modest $5000 bet on the issue, and we can send the $$ to Alan for escrow until such time that the returns are received.

Agreed?

[quahaug]

I've been self employed or s-corp all my life and never knew I could deduct my lunch! I'm gonna have to go back 40 years or so to amend all those returns, Could be worth some real dough.

[Dan Druff]

Keep in mind that you can also file tax returns with deductions that are not allowed, and get away with it for years (or for your entire life) without being caught.

The IRS audits only a very small percentage of returns filed.

In addition, they only have 3 years to audit you, unless it's auditing for fraud.

Simply deducting something you shouldn't have doesn't qualify as fraud in most situations.

Furthermore, Rob's tax returns only indicate what he filed -- not any penalties he might have had to pay later.

[Rob.Singer]

Keep in mind that you can also file tax returns with deductions that are not allowed, and get away with it for years (or for your entire life) without being caught.

The IRS audits only a very small percentage of returns filed.

In addition, they only have 3 years to audit you, unless it's auditing for fraud.

Simply deducting something you shouldn't have doesn't qualify as fraud in most situations.

Furthermore, Rob's tax returns only indicate what he filed -- not any penalties he might have had to pay later.

I see. Now you're hoping that I took deductions that were not allowed and had to pay "penalties" (& interest, if you were being as thorough as you want to be seen as being). I can also request audit reports from the 5 years I went through full audits on as a professional gambler filer.

Dan, you throw around a lot of assertions, and they obviously are radiating from under the safe cover of the Internet's greatest friend: anonymity. How about you come out of hiding and change your cowardice into courage. Let's make a modest wager that all 3 of my audit reports rendered no penalties for the infrequent grocery deductions--which I've claimed every year--or for any other deduction.

Alan, can you handle receiving these too, if they are also allowed to be sent to a 3rd party? I'll call my contact at the IRS in a few minutes to see if I can obtain them.

[Dan Druff]

I see. Now you're hoping that I took deductions that were not allowed and had to pay "penalties" (& interest, if you were being as thorough as you want to be seen as being). I can also request audit reports from the 5 years I went through full audits on as a professional gambler filer.

Dan, you throw around a lot of assertions, and they obviously are radiating from under the safe cover of the Internet's greatest friend: anonymity. How about you come out of hiding and change your cowardice into courage. Let's make a modest wager that all 3 of my audit reports rendered no penalties for the infrequent grocery deductions--which I've claimed every year--or for any other deduction.

Alan, can you handle receiving these too, if they are also allowed to be sent to a 3rd party? I'll call my contact at the IRS in a few minutes to see if I can obtain them.

I am not anonymous.

Look up "Dan Druff" on Wikipedia and you'll find me.

Why would I want to bet you that your returns generated no penalties?

It's easy to file your taxes with bogus deductions and not get penalized. That doesn't mean your deductions are legal. It just means you didn't get caught.

It's like me betting you that I can produce a video of me jaywalking and then prove that I never received a jaywalking ticket in my life.

This would prove I jaywalked with no consequence, but it wouldn't prove that jaywalking is legal.

[redietz]

Gonna need lots of popcorn.

I mentioned this before, but it's worth repeating.

"If a man comes up to you with a sealed deck of cards and offers to bet you that the Jack of Spades will jump out of the deck and spit cider in your ear, do not bet him, my son." -- from Guys and Dolls

[Rob.Singer]

Re-read what you wrote about what I filed, and how penalties may have had to have been paid later. That suggests a probability of being caught taking an illegitimate deduction and then having to pay it back--plus interest & penalties. I'm saying there's no chance of that while you want to be seen as if you're onto something. So man up and take the bet. Stop hiding behind your computer and most of all, stop scratching your head. Or else stop making up scenarios you think you can get away with. I'm no degenerate poker player, and I'm far more intelligent than the collection of stiffs who are addicted to on-line poker play.

[Rob.Singer]

Gonna need lots of popcorn.

I mentioned this before, but it's worth repeating.

"If a man comes up to you with a sealed deck of cards and offers to bet you that the Jack of Spades will jump out of the deck and spit cider in your ear, do not bet him, my son." -- from Guys and Dolls

Wise words red.

[Alan Mendelson]

I thought I posted this earlier but I just want to say it again:

I think the tax issue is a separate issue, and frankly I don't care how Rob prepared his taxes or what discussions he had with the IRS. I think his tax matters are his personal business.

I am interested in finding out if indeed there are certain deductions that are available that I didn't know about before.

Whether or not Rob was able to deduct this or that, and whether or not the deductions were disallowed later really has no impact on the merits of his system or method of play. That's all I care about. Can Rob Singer's system or elements of his system, help me win?

When it comes to taxes, I follow what I believe to be is the law and I make various personal decisions about what I will deduct and what qualifies. Sure, I could go through the trouble of deducting the square footage of my desk as "office space." But it ain't worth the time or trouble to me... period. In my case, I have bigger deductions not to miss that are worth dollars so I will skip the pennies.

Frankly, I don't see how Rob's tax returns will have any impact on the efficacy of his system unless they also show that he never had the wins he claimed to have had. If he was able to offset all those wins then yes, I would like to know what he knows about the tax laws that the rest of us don't know. But I am not sure seeing his tax returns will tell us that.

Frankly Rob, what would be of more interest is any correspondence you received from the IRS explaining why they allowed these various deductions that are being questioned. Do you have any correspondence? Now that would be interesting and helpful because opinions from the IRS can help everyone to a certain degree.

Seeing your tax returns won't.

[Rob.Singer]

I don't believe my audit reports say anything about specific deductions because I've never had any of them disallowed. The 3 audits clearly focused on how a person in Az. could be a professional gambler who actually made money from the work. They tried and tried to get my professional/business status changed, but I had precedent as well as more knowledgeable auditors who were always consulted with in LV on my side. Yes they questioned why there was so many business expenses, but I made certain each year that I showed the absolute minimum profit allowed in order to be able to file as a business. There's a lot of variables involved, and other parts of our return in addition to my wife's work income made for a very complicated filing during each of my 11 years. But as we've all learned from GE, I just kept making pass after pass until I got it the way I wanted it.

Will the returns prove anything about my vp winnings? Arci thinks so, and he knows all--right?

[Alan Mendelson]

but I made certain each year that I showed the absolute minimum profit allowed in order to be able to file as a business.

Someone has to clarify this for me: if you have a profit to keep a business a business and not a hobby, how do you not pay tax on the profit?

[arcimede$]

I just thought of something. My returns will prove we owned homes in two cities plus rented the apt. I think it's only fair that arci has a chance to "double down" on his claims here by us making a modest $5000 bet on the issue, and we can send the $$ to Alan for escrow until such time that the returns are received.

Agreed?

I mentioned many times that all you had to do was post the address of your old residence and it would be easy to verify. No bet needed. Just post the address and remove all doubt.

[arcimede$]

Someone has to clarify this for me: if you have a profit to keep a business a business and not a hobby, how do you not pay tax on the profit?

IIRC the law requires a profit for something like 3 out of every 5 years. Hence, you could go 2 years without a profit but would then need to show a profit for the next 3 years.

[Alan Mendelson]

IIRC the law requires a profit for something like 3 out of every 5 years. Hence, you could go 2 years without a profit but would then need to show a profit for the next 3 years.

I understand that but if you offset the revenue to create "no profit" then it is a hobby, and if it's a hobby then you don't have the deductions to offset the revenue from the wins. So how do avoid paying the taxes, and keeping the business as a business?

[redietz]

The "three out of five" is not a hard and fast rule. Say you get audited after seven years, and you show a loss, but a progressively smaller loss, the first four years, followed by three years of increasing winning. That may indeed be enough to allow something to be classified as a business.

[Alan Mendelson]

I don't know of any exceptions to the three out of five rule. I think a profit is a profit and a loss is a loss and declining losses or increasing profits doesn't matter. Either you have a profit or a loss. But I would like to hear from a tax expert on this one.

[Rob.Singer]

I mentioned many times that all you had to do was post the address of your old residence and it would be easy to verify. No bet needed. Just post the address and remove all doubt.

I have no interest in doing your work for you if you haven't already. You want to tell lies about me then you face up to the consequences. If not, then welcome to your worst nightmare--appearing the fool on a public forum.

[Alan Mendelson]

I've said this many times over: where Rob lived has absolutely no bearing on anything to do with his video poker wins, losses, skills, strategy, system or anything. It's a non issue.

And if you want to say that his "address" determines his credibility then consider that according to public records I am homeless because I moved into my wife's home and my name does not appear on anything associated with her home. Technically, I am homeless. And since wives control the purse strings I am also technically broke.