Progressive Free Games AKA the 15's

[mickeycrimm]

Darkoz is a little late to the party on this one. The game has only been out for 4 years. And I'm not that impressed with his ability to analyze slot games. A lot has gotten by him. I'll have more to say on this game later. I have some driving to do today:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gamb...ts/#post857772

[jbjb]

Blindly taking a 14 blue is a road to ruin. Many thanks to you guys that posted the count numbers and their associated paybacks.

[mickeycrimm]

I found Progressive Free Games at the Hard Rock in Sioux City, Iowa in July 2018. But they pulled the game a few days after that. But I got to figure out how they worked.

There was always an exact number of spins to flip the Free Games Meters. The ones at Sioux City would flip at 48 spins on the Red 2X, 175 spins on the Green 5X, and 600 spins on the Blue 10X.

The red meter started at 5 free spins, green 7, blue 10.

You could trigger free games in the screen by catching 3 correlating bonus symbols. But if the meter reached 15 spins without hitting in the screen you automatically got the 15 free spins with the multiplier.

So I figured finding a meter on 14 was a good play. And I did well with the game. Every play wasn't a winner but the winning plays out ran the losing plays to show a profit.

So what happened? Hard Rock pulled the game. I was like damn the luck. But I figured the game would start showing in other locations.

So it goes on for a month. I was in at least a few dozen casinos after that and I couldn't find the game. So I put a pic up on gambling Twitter (I had about 500 people following me at the time) and asked if anyone had seen the game.

It was three months after I found the game at Sioux City that I learned on Twitter that it first appeared in Las Vegas. So I gave these guys the countdown on the meters. The first thing they hit me with was I didn't know how to count.

The game in Vegas was taking a lot more spins than the ones I found. I got DM's telling me I made a mistake. I told them no, I didn't make a mistake. That I thought they found different configurations. And that's what happened.

Shortly after they appeared in Vegas I found them in Oklahoma. And they had better countdowns. The first I found had 45/120/550. Then I found a set that was 40/100/480. Then I found some in some high roller rooms that were 38/80/450. I still needed a 14 on the 10X but I could play the 5X on 13.

The worst ones I found were at CZR properties, 110/330/850. You can tell that guy on WoV to forget the ones at Harrah's Cherokee and Belterra. The problem with that 850 is you have to catch someone playing a 14 then count the spins they are making....then hope they get up. I have better things to do.

[accountinquestion]

Always impressed by how methodical you are Micky. If I was a pro-slot player, I would like to think I would do the same.

I tried some 15s at RW I believe. I kept hitting something that'd reset the first meter. After about 3 tries I gave up as it wasn't that important to me.

[PositiveVariance]

Got a question, when these guys talk about how “teams” will come in and take stuff at much lower numbers.


Are these guys simply willing to work for much less?

Is there focus more on “building cards” for freeplay, so they will play anything between even and slightly positive EV.

Are they “stealing” the plays from competition to “force them out”?

[Treeshade]

Got a question, when these guys talk about how “teams” will come in and take stuff at much lower numbers.


Are these guys simply willing to work for much less?

Is there focus more on “building cards” for freeplay, so they will play anything between even and slightly positive EV.

Are they “stealing” the plays from competition to “force them out”?

If someone was building cards on this machine at lower numbers I would say they don’t know what they are doing. This machine is very slow and would not be optimal to build on in the long run. I guess someone could utilize it sparingly but there are far better options
.

Most likely the local hustlers are getting bored so they must play something. I see it everyday slot hustlers taking bad plays just because they spend so much time in the casino they get impatient.

[Treeshade]

If there are teams coming in to play this machine to build they won’t be making much in the long run, and I wouldn’t sweat them. They will be broke and gone soon enough

[tableplay]

Are they “stealing” the plays from competition to “force them out”?

People with a large portfolio of moves don't sweat this too much, but it does occur to a certain extent IMHO.

[Treeshade]

Always impressed by how methodical you are Micky. If I was a pro-slot player, I would like to think I would do the same.

I tried some 15s at RW I believe. I kept hitting something that'd reset the first meter. After about 3 tries I gave up as it wasn't that important to me.

Nihilist often give up .. nothing matters

[mickeycrimm]

Got a question, when these guys talk about how “teams” will come in and take stuff at much lower numbers.


Are these guys simply willing to work for much less?

Is there focus more on “building cards” for freeplay, so they will play anything between even and slightly positive EV.

Are they “stealing” the plays from competition to “force them out”?

There is always competition around the advantage slots. It's a thing of "how low will you play' versus the other slot AP's. I'm no competition at all on the 5K and 10K must hits because I refuse to play the low numbers the others play. Sure, there's multi-carding to be done on them but I just don't care for having to make commitments to other people and having to make freeplay pickups. It's not my bag but more power to the ones that do it.

Darkoz' story is a little out of whack for me. Probably no team play going on. There used to be a low roller crew up in Manistee, Michigan about 20 years ago that camped the Blue Screen Bingo's everyday. They took turns on the plays and when one guy finished a play he would usually make a lap around the other games before queing back up in the Bingo line. They took up the seats on the games directly behind the Bingo's but never drew heat. It was like a social gathering. They sat there jaw jacking in between plays. I would even stop and socialize for awhile. But I wouldn't que up in the line. That's probably what Darkoz saw.

[mickeycrimm]

A well known AP sent me the countdowns off the par sheets for the 15's. You can see a pic of it here. The first thing I noticed was the countdowns on the 2X meters were all different according to the RTP. So when I stumbled upon some new 15's I would play them or countdown someone playing them to get the countdown on the 2X meter. That told me which chip I was dealing with and what I could play.

I pretty much stuck with the 91% and higher 15's.

Another thing the 15's were good for was a barometer on the RTP in the entire casino. IIRC, the only two places I found the 85%'ers was Belterra and Harrah's Cherokee. Both CZR joints. I don't even stop at CZR joints anymore.

I know guys that have worked them for freeplay but I don't care to get involved. One guy told me about an $8 hex on a CZR property where they played it three away and it took 13K to spin it off.

You can see in the pic below that the countdowns on the 2X is different on all the chips.

[mickeycrimm]

One thing I was able to determine was the game with the meters discounted out was the same on all the chips. The difference in RTP per each chip is based solely on the countdowns.

I tracked 10K spins on the 45/120/550's with all the meters discounted out. Got a 65% return. Usually, if the bonus reels are a different payback it will say something like "bonus reels in play." There is nothing like that on the 15's. So I figured:

A 2X spin = 1.3 units.
A 5X spin = 3.25 units
1 10X spin = 6.5 units

And this would be true on all the different chips.

[The Boz]

Not to change the subject, and it has been talking about forever in the past, but Mick brought up Hex3. And Seed brought up card builders.

I wonder how many teams and individuals have lost their bankrolls on this game compared to how many gained from it?

[Treeshade]

Not to change the subject, and it has been talking about forever in the past, but Mick brought up Hex3. And Seed brought up card builders.

I wonder how many teams and individuals have lost their bankrolls on this game compared to how many gained from it?

Regarding hex 3 I can confidently say many. Most people didn’t have a great understanding of how much of a bankroll was needed. I remember having a brief conversation with Alan Kessler when they first came out. He made the comment about being very careful with the high denomination cats. I responded I was well aware of the ones set at 85 to 87 percent. There’s also a way to determine what version cat you are playing by looking at the difference in graphics sound and a few other things. Or you can simply have the machine restarted to see the build date. I know people still believe that the version didn’t matter but it did. Now they are disappearing or comping less. But if you knew what you were looking for and playing for for a period of about 14 months there was no better slot to make money on

[Treeshade]

As a follow up there are currently better games for card builders. Ones that fly under the radar and bring way less heat

[The Boz]

Not to change the subject, and it has been talking about forever in the past, but Mick brought up Hex3. And Seed brought up card builders.

I wonder how many teams and individuals have lost their bankrolls on this game compared to how many gained from it?

Regarding hex 3 I can confidently say many. Most people didn’t have a great understanding of how much of a bankroll was needed. I remember having a brief conversation with Alan Kessler when they first came out. He made the comment about being very careful with the high denomination cats. I responded I was well aware of the ones set at 85 to 87 percent. There’s also a way to determine what version cat you are playing by looking at the difference in graphics sound and a few other things. Or you can simply have the machine restarted to see the build date. I know people still believe that the version didn’t matter but it did. Now they are disappearing or comping less. But if you knew what you were looking for and playing for for a period of about 14 months there was no better slot to make money on

Thanks, exactly as I expected to hear. There was a lot of debate on here about “nerfing” and versions but I figured many saw opportunity but didn’t think it out. And there was (is) short term money to be made before a lessor column comes off.

Now the thought that they are comping less interests me. Are you thinking they are targeting this game in particular by requiring more coin in per point and announcing it like higher pay VP, or are you saying they are targeting play deeper by looking at individual players/cards?

Feel free to not respond if you think it’s best not discussed.

[accountinquestion]

Not to change the subject, and it has been talking about forever in the past, but Mick brought up Hex3. And Seed brought up card builders.

I wonder how many teams and individuals have lost their bankrolls on this game compared to how many gained from it?

Regarding hex 3 I can confidently say many. Most people didn’t have a great understanding of how much of a bankroll was needed. I remember having a brief conversation with Alan Kessler when they first came out. He made the comment about being very careful with the high denomination cats. I responded I was well aware of the ones set at 85 to 87 percent. There’s also a way to determine what version cat you are playing by looking at the difference in graphics sound and a few other things. Or you can simply have the machine restarted to see the build date. I know people still believe that the version didn’t matter but it did. Now they are disappearing or comping less. But if you knew what you were looking for and playing for for a period of about 14 months there was no better slot to make money on

Thanks, exactly as I expected to hear. There was a lot of debate on here about “nerfing” and versions but I figured many saw opportunity but didn’t think it out. And there was (is) short term money to be made before a lessor column comes off.

Now the thought that they are comping less interests me. Are you thinking they are targeting this game in particular by requiring more coin in per point and announcing it like higher pay VP, or are you saying they are targeting play deeper by looking at individual players/cards?

Feel free to not respond if you think it’s best not discussed.

Some casinos have been known to ban people for hex3 behavior that they believe to be abusive and at the surveillance level.

[Treeshade]

Regarding hex 3 I can confidently say many. Most people didn’t have a great understanding of how much of a bankroll was needed. I remember having a brief conversation with Alan Kessler when they first came out. He made the comment about being very careful with the high denomination cats. I responded I was well aware of the ones set at 85 to 87 percent. There’s also a way to determine what version cat you are playing by looking at the difference in graphics sound and a few other things. Or you can simply have the machine restarted to see the build date. I know people still believe that the version didn’t matter but it did. Now they are disappearing or comping less. But if you knew what you were looking for and playing for for a period of about 14 months there was no better slot to make money on

Thanks, exactly as I expected to hear. There was a lot of debate on here about “nerfing” and versions but I figured many saw opportunity but didn’t think it out. And there was (is) short term money to be made before a lessor column comes off.

Now the thought that they are comping less interests me. Are you thinking they are targeting this game in particular by requiring more coin in per point and announcing it like higher pay VP, or are you saying they are targeting play deeper by looking at individual players/cards?

Feel free to not respond if you think it’s best not discussed.

Some casinos have been known to ban people for hex3 behavior that they believe to be abusive and at the surveillance level.

I’ve never once seen this and my guys and I have ran millions of coin in through this game in Dam near every state. Now I’m not saying AIQ is lying and it could happen but I suspect it was for multiple carding not Just playing the game.

[Treeshade]

Not to change the subject, and it has been talking about forever in the past, but Mick brought up Hex3. And Seed brought up card builders.

I wonder how many teams and individuals have lost their bankrolls on this game compared to how many gained from it?

Regarding hex 3 I can confidently say many. Most people didn’t have a great understanding of how much of a bankroll was needed. I remember having a brief conversation with Alan Kessler when they first came out. He made the comment about being very careful with the high denomination cats. I responded I was well aware of the ones set at 85 to 87 percent. There’s also a way to determine what version cat you are playing by looking at the difference in graphics sound and a few other things. Or you can simply have the machine restarted to see the build date. I know people still believe that the version didn’t matter but it did. Now they are disappearing or comping less. But if you knew what you were looking for and playing for for a period of about 14 months there was no better slot to make money on

Thanks, exactly as I expected to hear. There was a lot of debate on here about “nerfing” and versions but I figured many saw opportunity but didn’t think it out. And there was (is) short term money to be made before a lessor column comes off.

Now the thought that they are comping less interests me. Are you thinking they are targeting this game in particular by requiring more coin in per point and announcing it like higher pay VP, or are you saying they are targeting play deeper by looking at individual players/cards?

Feel free to not respond if you think it’s best not discussed.

It depends on the club but yes to everything. Not all casinos but some

[mickeycrimm]

Thanks, exactly as I expected to hear. There was a lot of debate on here about “nerfing” and versions but I figured many saw opportunity but didn’t think it out. And there was (is) short term money to be made before a lessor column comes off.

Now the thought that they are comping less interests me. Are you thinking they are targeting this game in particular by requiring more coin in per point and announcing it like higher pay VP, or are you saying they are targeting play deeper by looking at individual players/cards?

Feel free to not respond if you think it’s best not discussed.

Some casinos have been known to ban people for hex3 behavior that they believe to be abusive and at the surveillance level.

I’ve never once seen this and my guys and I have ran millions of coin in through this game in Dam near every state. Now I’m not saying AIQ is lying and it could happen but I suspect it was for multiple carding not Just playing the game.

At one time there were a few hundred Hexes in OK and guys traveled around spinning them off. Probably 40 Hexes just between Winstar/Border. The Choctaw casinos ran off the worst violater's. But it got to where the Hexes just sat there with no ploppie action and casinos started pulling them. Regal replaced a lot of Hexes in OK.