Electronic Blackjack - hit after doubling down.

[mickeycrimm]

KJ said other people worked the play. If true then someone could possibly confirm the glitch existed. I've gotten wind that some new BJ machines started hitting the casino floors recently. Might be a good lead, might not. Doesn't hurt to look around.

[mickeycrimm]

Surprising that so many on here seem gullible enough to believe that kewl actually went across the country working this play. This guy faked his death... I mean who does that?? But on the other hand, if kewl thinks he's getting traction with his nonsense then he will keep posting it. And I do find it, and the resulting criticism, quite entertaining. So keep up the good work kewl!

I'm surprised that so many AP's are gullible enough not to investigate. I've been snooping around. Possible new BJ machines out there. If the play existed someone else is bound to know about it. If the glitch is confirmed they will have to move the goalposts to KJ heard about it thru the grapevine after it was over with.

I don't want a bunch of hearsay, innuendo, trolling. I want real evidence that confirms or denies the glitch existed. Fuck the bullshit.

[MDawg]

At this point anyone who thinks FraudJ represents anything truthfully or factually correct is a fool.....RIP

[MDawg]

If the play existed someone else is bound to know about it.

That's the problem with all of UNKewlJ's fables...if he presented the truth by now there would be many who could vouch for what he has claimed to have done, who would have crossed paths with the UNKewlJ he represents himself to be. There are none.

[MDawg]

Well, none, other than

for years now APs have been saying you’re nothing more than a low end video poker player, and now we have more than one person who has seen you playing very low end blackjack only as a cover for sugar daddy play.

[accountinquestion]

Lets talk about the math and stop trolling.

This is a very straightforward problem. That is, the probabilities are the same as those encountered in compositional strategy. For example, given your three cards (two initial cards plus the double down card) and the dealer's upcard (and I suppose the other players' cards if that information is available), you would decide whether to take a 2nd double down card (on a glitched machine) using the exact same criteria you would use under the scenario where you have not doubled down.

Working Example on a hypothetical glitched machine:
1. You are dealt a 6 and 5 with the dealer's upcard being a 10 and you decide to double down since it is +EV to do so (Hi-Lo neutral count).
2. You get a 2
3. So (with double the money in action) now you have a 6,5, and 2 versus the dealer 10 and you would hit. The explanation for this is already described above but is clarified in points 4. and 5. below.
4. If you walked up to a BJ table, started playing, and then received a 2 and 5 initially versus a 10, then you would take a hit according to basic strategy and not double down (again neutral hi-lo count). Receiving a 6 on your third card, you would then take another card since you would hit on a 13 (2,5,6) versus a dealer 10.
5. The order of reception is different than the double down scenario but the action is the same, you take another card when you have a 6,5, and 2 in your hand versus a dealer 10. You are making things worse on yourself (i.e. losing even more in this already -EV spot) if you do not do this.

Yea good post. Granted I didn't think about it to actually try and figure it out but it is just the same basic strategy. Kewl could have snooped around and gotten a perfect answer. Weird. Actually I think it would be obvious to any BJ player who was sitting in that situation.

[kewlJ]

We are talking about different things here. I know that after doubling you would re-hit a 13 vs dealer 8, if given the opportunity (glitched machine). That is common sense.

What I wanted to know initially (back in March) was just what this play was worth and what the optimal strategy would be. That is why I contacted two people directly and posted on this forum and a blackjack forum looking for those answers. Posting on the two forums was risking alerting other players to the play. I was willing to do that to get the information I needed.

What I was looking for was things like this:

In a regular blackjack game you double 9 vs dealer 3-6. But when the count is good you will double 9 vs 2 and 9 vs 7 as well. Would this glitch and the opportunity to improve your hand should you draw a bad double card mean that you should double more aggressively, doubling the 9 vs 2 and 9 vs 7 when you otherwise wouldn't?

Same with 8 vs 4-6. This is not a normal double. But it is a double in higher counts. Well would the opportunity to hit again should you draw a bad card make this a regular double?

I think the answers to these questions are yes, but I was looking for conformation.

Another slightly more extreme is the 10 vs dealer 10 double. Not a double under regular circumstances, but in high counts it becomes a double. With this glitch and the opportunity to hit again and improve your hand should you draw a weak card make this a double?

These are answers that I would normally get by running simulations. But the software I use doesn't have an option for hit after double. Why would it? It isn't a real rule that I have ever seen.

That is why I was seeking answers and advise, at the risk of alerting a few players. And mostly what I got was AP's wanting me to give up the game.

So don't come at me now, months later after the play is over and say I should have done this or should have done that. You had the chance to offer that advice at the time and I got crickets from the players on this forum (except mickey crimm who offered advice on how to attack).

The play is over now. At least for us. I heard from one player that thinks it is still alive. He said he played it last week. Maybe he did, but I will bet he isn't playing it this week.

And I am not going to dwell on the past with you guys trolling. I have moved on. Back to blackjack on a table that has actual felt. And just in time for a holiday weekend.

[tableplay]

We are talking about different things here. I know that after doubling you would re-hit a 13 vs dealer 8, if given the opportunity (glitched machine). That is common sense.

What I wanted to know initially (back in March) was just what this play was worth and what the optimal strategy would be. That is why I contacted two people directly and posted on this forum and a blackjack forum looking for those answers. Posting on the two forums was risking alerting other players to the play. I was willing to do that to get the information I needed.

What I was looking for was things like this:

In a regular blackjack game you double 9 vs dealer 3-6. But when the count is good you will double 9 vs 2 and 9 vs 7 as well. Would this glitch and the opportunity to improve your hand should you draw a bad double card mean that you should double more aggressively, doubling the 9 vs 2 and 9 vs 7 when you otherwise wouldn't?

Same with 8 vs 4-6. This is not a normal double. But it is a double in higher counts. Well would the opportunity to hit again should you draw a bad card make this a regular double?

I think the answers to these questions are yes, but I was looking for conformation.

Another slightly more extreme is the 10 vs dealer 10 double. Not a double under regular circumstances, but in high counts it becomes a double. With this glitch and the opportunity to hit again and improve your hand should you draw a weak card make this a double?

How are you going to get to a high enough count on an electronic machine such that you are in a position where you have to make these departures from basic strategy in the first place ? Does a glitched machine virtual dealer keep dealing without reshuffling until a certain point like a real dealer would ? The only way a player would have to consider these cases you put forth is if the virtual dealer does not reshuffle after each round. I totally get that in early versions of Dealer's Angels individuals and teams would wreck the casino since the cards were not shuffled after every round. But is this the case with double down glitched games ?

It isn't a real rule that I have ever seen.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/super-fun-21/

[Rob.Singer]

That's a good point. BJ machines shuffle after each hand, similar to vp machines, so there is never a good or bad count. Yet he continued to base his "inquiries" as if there were no shuffle--as in a live game.

Oops....again! This is something kew didn't consider when he fabricated his "glitched machine" story.

[Rob.Singer]

If the play existed someone else is bound to know about it.

That's the problem with all of UNKewlJ's fables...if he presented the truth by now there would be many who could vouch for what he has claimed to have done, who would have crossed paths with the UNKewlJ he represents himself to be. There are none.

Of course. And even kew constantly talked about all these "teams of AP's" attacking the play, making oodles of money all around the country. Certainly with the play now "dead" there would be at least a peep from someone else, somewhere.

He never learns....

[mickeycrimm]

That's a good point. BJ machines shuffle after each hand, similar to vp machines, so there is never a good or bad count. Yet he continued to base his "inquiries" as if there were no shuffle--as in a live game.

Oops....again! This is something kew didn't consider when he fabricated his "glitched machine" story.

Rob, there have been versions of video blackjack that were not shuffle after every hand. The Dealers Angels you've read about here was on of them. It was 4 decks and it would deal 80 cards before shuffling. Once 80 cards were out you could see the dealer in the screen shuffling the cards. It was a countable game with a bet spread of $1 to $100.

I played it at Deadwood Grand. It may still be in Pioneer Laughlin. It was in a few remote places in New Mexixo. I'm sure other places in U.S. had it.

The countable blackjack consoles go back a lot of years. I remember one version that got crushed back about 1999. It was countable with deep penetration.

[mickeycrimm]

About a year ago I found a BJ game on this machine that paid 3/2 with a few other good rules. I was getting 1.5% freeplay on it. I don't know if I caused it but they switched it to 6/5.

I have a habit of checking these machines when I see them but they aren't in many locations that I know of.

[AxelWolf]

Maybe I'm gullible, but I am 50-50 on whether the story is real.

I am a bit confused how this bug could have occurred in the first place. A large gaming manufacturer would copy their code from previously produced games -- none of which would have ever allowed hit after double.

It also is highly unlikely to be an option the casino chooses to enable.

With that said, if it's a new variant of electronic BJ, perhaps they just made some boneheaded developmental error and didn't do very robust testing.

I would like to know how your brother discovered it.

Dan there's been many glitches over the years from large gaming manufacturers(IGT)
There was a good one on BJ a few years back.

FFS, Why am I up at 6 o'clock in the morning?

[Rob.Singer]

That's a good point. BJ machines shuffle after each hand, similar to vp machines, so there is never a good or bad count. Yet he continued to base his "inquiries" as if there were no shuffle--as in a live game.

Oops....again! This is something kew didn't consider when he fabricated his "glitched machine" story.

Rob, there have been versions of video blackjack that were not shuffle after every hand. The Dealers Angels you've read about here was on of them. It was 4 decks and it would deal 80 cards before shuffling. Once 80 cards were out you could see the dealer in the screen shuffling the cards. It was a countable game with a bet spread of $1 to $100.

I played it at Deadwood Grand. It may still be in Pioneer Laughlin. It was in a few remote places in New Mexixo. I'm sure other places in U.S. had it.

The countable blackjack consoles go back a lot of years. I remember one version that got crushed back about 1999. It was countable with deep penetration.

So this is an IGT machine? (or another major manufacturer). Would one of them release a new machine these days that don't shuffle until 80 cards are dealt?

Either way, major machine providers would react immediately once a casino reported a possible glitch. No way they'd allow teams of AP to continue raping them while they do nothing. And releasing just 28 machines that only kew had knowledge of?

What are the odds....if any.

[AxelWolf]

I am ready to talk about this now as this play is over for us (my brother and I). We have worked this play for 9 weeks traveling the country. I am aware that there are other players and teams working this play, that may not have given up yet, trying to locate and eek out the last of it, but the play is essentially dead and will be officially dead everywhere if it is not already.

My brother located this play in early March at a small local casino in Las Vegas. I discussed it with several players, including Mickey on this forum. And I asked 4 different guys that would know the math, just what it was worth. I received 2 replies in the $200/hour range. The other two math guys I asked, didn't want to provide an answer without me revealing the machine brand and location. I wasn't surprised nor mad, as that is how AP's operate. One of those that wanted a cut of the play in exchange for the information, was Shackleford. While Mike didn't provide the answer I wanted, just the fact that he was interested, confirmed the other numbers I had received were probably right or close, as Shackleford wouldn't have been interested for peanuts.

I never said that it was an electronic machine on this forum, but several people guessed that it was and that this hit after doubling down was a computer error or glitch. The way it worked is that after doubling down, and drawing a double down card, the "hit, stand, double down" options, lit up again, for a quick second, or more like partial second. If you acted quickly, you could hit and the extra card would be added. Think of it like this: You have a 10 vs dealer 8. You double down and draw a 3. Your double down is now likely a losing hand. But hitting again, you have a chance to improve your hand. You might still bust or draw a 2 or 3 and still lose, but you have the chance to improve your hand and that makes everything +EV.

Unfortunately, due to controlled speed of game and betting limits, it is only worth several hundred dollars an hour. Otherwise it would be a goldmine.

This game is by one of the big manufacturers. They make several different models of electronic blackjack. Unfortunately, this was their least popular or the one with the fewest placements. I think it might have been their newest. I was able to come up with a list of locations where the game was placed and it was only 28 throughout the U.S. It is possible that list wasn't up to date, but that is what we worked off of.

So two were in Las Vegas and that is where we started. The first location, we played for 8 full days. It turns out that was the longest we were able to get in anywhere. On the 9th day we were met by a group of casino suits at the game and asked for I.D. I refused. One then said we were trespassed from the property and read the standard statement. I am not sure how a trespass works if they don't know your name. Now that this is over, that is a question I will ask of someone who knows. As we made our way to the door, we were weakly threatened with arrest for cheating. I practically laughed in the guy's face. I responded that we were not cheating, just playing with the opinions presented to us. He asked "what I meant"? That is when I realized they didn't even have a clue what we were doing...how we were winning. They only knew we were winning. I said no more and we walked out the door.

At the second Las Vegas location, we encountered other players playing the 3 available stations. I wasn't sure if they were together (seemed to be) so we just watched for a bit, eventually ate lunch and when they were still playing and had the machines tied up several hours later, I concluded they were together. Some sort of team or group of AP's, none that I recognized. We decided to cross out that location, as they were surly well on their way to burning it out.

So we took to the road, traveling 4 neighboring western states, playing a total of 5 locations. This lasted two and a half weeks and was the best of it. We encountered no other players or teams, but only were getting 3-5 days per location, before we were backed off or the machines disabled. I was hoping for longer periods of play at each location.

The next trip was to the Gulf Coast area, and this is where things started to fall apart. 6 locations. We were only able to play 2 of them. This is where we encountered a second team or group of players playing at 2 locations. I assume they were the same team. Not necessarily the same players, but the same group. At 2 more locations, one the machines had been disabled and placed "out of order", and the second, I couldn't even find the machines. I think they had been taken off the floor. My suspicion was that these two locations had already been hit by that team or group of players. So we played the remaining two locations for a few days each and then headed towards the middle of the country. At this point that I knew we were burning through the locations and not even able to play some, and this play was not going to be nearly as lucrative as I was hoping. I was hoping for 4-6 months and making a couple hundred grand.

After several successful stops at 2 locations in the middle of the county, things took a worse turn. On the first double down opportunity, my brother said "it's not working". Playing the station next door, I hit had my double down opportunity moments later, and also was not able to hit afterwords. Of the remaining stops in the several states in the middle of the county, we only found 1 that we could play and still hit after doubling down.

It was apparent there was some kind of software upgrade or "fix" eliminating this opportunity. We still had the East Coast on 7 locations in the mid Atlantic area. I was hoping we were running ahead of this play ending software upgrade or fix. It turned out to be a mixed bag...mostly against us as we were only able to play 2 locations for a brief time. One location was playable one day and not the next.

At this point we had hit all but 3 locations. There were stand alone locations, one being in Reno, which I was saving for the end, due to past problems at that location. We decided to skip these final 3 locations. Over the final 3-4 weeks were finding fewer playable games, and getting less actual time in (meaning less money). And traveling and spending expenses doing so.

In the end we made some money, but not even half after expenses of what I was hoping for. But pretty good money for 9 weeks of work and as far as I know, no consequences as far as database issue or anything like that. i will have a friend double check that. The worst of it was that very first location with the trespass, and weak threat of arrest.

After thoughts: When we discovered this play, my first decision was whether this was something we could milk for a long period of time. I decided it wasn't. And the reason I thought that is that unlike the Nester/Kane double up bug (you will note I don't credit anyone else with playing the double up), this was not a popular machine available at many casinos. It was very limited. But the bigger reason is also comparing to the Nester/Kane double up bug, there was no sequence of things needed to activate the bug or glitch. The option just lit up without doing anything to trigger it. So I figured there would be players, both AP's and just regular players that recognized this, so it wouldn't last long. I was hoping for longer than it did, but I think I made the right call.

Anyway, I am sure you trolls will do your thing, so go to it.

The strangest part of your story is the multiple details and yet, lack of important details.

$200 is an absolutely meaningless detail without context. I have known plenty of people who went broke on $200+ an hour because they had a marginal edge with high variance.

What percentage advantage did you have? .5/1% 2% 3% 5% 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0%???

How much on average per hand were you betting? how many hands per hour were you getting out? How many hours total did you get in?
did your hourly match your expected EV?

What made you guys decide not to use cards?

I would be surprised if this rule added more than 1.3%

As a side note, I'm more interested in plays and stories of situations where someone is making $100 an hour playing $.25 - $1.25 a hand with zero variance and only a $50 bankroll needed.

[Garnabby]

FFS, Why am I up at 6 o'clock in the morning?

Because you haven't figured out how great it is to be alive under either circumstance, at either time. Because you're farting your life away with such nonsense.

You guys are as readable, in each and every post. Ha.

[Garnabby]

Oh, wow. Tasha started up with her "young Axl Rose time traveling to 2022" stories, over at the WoV. In the off-topic section.

[Don Perignom]

I have a habit of checking these machines when I see them but they aren't in many locations that I know of.

I like the concept. They use an ordinary cabinet, so the games can potentially be found mixed in with the reels:



Pace of play is refreshingly fast compared to some electronic table games.

[jdog]

If the glitch is confirmed they will have to move the goalposts to KJ heard about it thru the grapevine after it was over with.

I never said I didn't think the vulnerability could be legit. It's long been posited that kewl's stories are inspired by something real or embellished upon actual events that have happened to others.

[kewlJ]

How are you going to get to a high enough count on an electronic machine such that you are in a position where you have to make these departures from basic strategy in the first place ? Does a glitched machine virtual dealer keep dealing without reshuffling until a certain point like a real dealer would ? The only way a player would have to consider these cases you put forth is if the virtual dealer does not reshuffle after each round. I totally get that in early versions of Dealer's Angels individuals and teams would wreck the casino since the cards were not shuffled after every round. But is this the case with double down glitched games ?

You are not understanding what I am saying. (and that is probably my fault). I am NOT saying we were counting this game. We were not. I am saying there are certain instances that can change whether a hand is +EV or profitable to double down. Counting is one such measure. With a higher count some hands are profitable double downs that otherwise wouldn't be. In this case, it was that ability to hit after doubling down and the chance to improve a hand where you otherwise wouldn't have that opportunity that could make a hand a profitable double down opportunity, when it otherwise wouldn't have been.

But it is all good. the play is over for me. We got what we got out of it.

Rob Singer: Just shut the fuck up for once. You have no idea what you are talking about with your comments on this situation, as you usually don't. Stay in your lane! And that lane is an old man, who's retirement plan is living off his daughter.

Axelwolf.: No I didn't give a lot of details, like how many hands, per hour, what the advantage was. I did give this privately to a couple people that I asked what it was worth. I will say that the game had a $100 bet maximum, and that seemed to be built or programmed in, as that was constant everywhere. And that was disappointing. That low bert max, and speed of the game, which were constants is what prevented this from being a really big play and payday.

Based on the numbers I was given of what it was worth per hours, we came in reasonably close, but a little bit under expectation. That may have been because the speed of the game was a little slower than I estimated. It may have been that despite my common sense strategy, we missed something, some particular hand that reduced EV, or it may have just been regular variance. But we were a little under. But in the end, still did well. The play was well worth it for us.

It really does seem like there are some favorable glitches out there with all these electronic and computerized games, seemingly especially blackjack. Like mickey said, I will probably keep an eye out and take a look at different games going forward.