Persistence and Slot Vultures

[mickeycrimm]

While some people think AP'ing slots is a myth (falsely perceived advantage) casino execs know we are cutting into their profits:

https://cdcgaming.com/commentary/fra...slot-vultures/

[mickeycrimm]

Are Slot Vultures Circling Your Machines?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...Gy18iF7LTU6lVB

[accountinquestion]

So many camping asians. Tiresome to the extreme. I would be happy to see these people kicked out. They make it impossible to ever find an Ascension play. So many degenerates who are going to lose their $$ anyway.

I guess the casino loses money because the EV removed is what would have went to losing players to lose back. One of those debatable things but that sentence sums it up best.

[The Boz]

Bill Krackomberger has been going hard on them recently. He calls the Asian vultures “Sour Rooters” which is different. He’s certainly not anti AP, just anti assholes who have become more and more common.

I actually wonder how many of the Chinese that Fox shows crossing the border recently are being recruited into this? Low pay hustling beats living in China I assume.

[accountinquestion]

Bill Krackomberger has been going hard on them recently. He calls the Asian vultures “Sour Rooters” which is different. He’s certainly not anti AP, just anti assholes who have become more and more common.

I actually wonder how many of the Chinese that Fox shows crossing the border recently are being recruited into this? Low pay hustling beats living in China I assume.

Yea, they could very well have fake IDs too. It is possible there is some sort of human trafficking sorts of stuff going on.

My ex-local casinos had a few asian ascension campers. There apparently was a system .. so if a guy is waiting, you get the one after that. I never bothered nor did I talk to those people for various reasons. They weren't the sour rooters who seem wanting to chase the player off by intruding on personal space. Still, very irksome to never be able to find Ascension plays.

[smurgerburger]

Did anyone listen to the podcast?

I haven't, wondering if I should.

[Rob.Singer]

The Chinese illegals aren't here looking for work or to vulture in casinos. They are being financed by the Chinese Government to disrupt-for-reactions, study, plan, spy, and report on anything they think their CCP bosses might have an interest in knowing. Our intelligence agencies know this, but political posturing in today's version of the US has rendered all standard simple common sense astonishingly irrelevant. Those 2 Jordanian guys who found their way onto a US Marines base? They'd be shot instantly in any of our adversaries' countries. Over here in today's whacko environment, we hear nothing--probably because some wussified Biden Administration DEI-infused General apologized to them and promised them a weekend in Miami Beach before giving them a free first class flight home.

I've seen these "vultures" before and as recent as last evening here at the Peppermill, where we're taking a break for 3 days on our way up thru Idaho and then SD for the summer. I've not noticed vultures harassing the rec players, acting obnoxious or using foul body odor as a way of clearing the players out. Does this really occur even occasionally?

[accountinquestion]

The Chinese illegals aren't here looking for work or to vulture in casinos. They are being financed by the Chinese Government to disrupt-for-reactions, study, plan, spy, and report on anything they think their CCP bosses might have an interest in knowing. Our intelligence agencies know this, but political posturing in today's version of the US has rendered all standard simple common sense astonishingly irrelevant. Those 2 Jordanian guys who found their way onto a US Marines base? They'd be shot instantly in any of our adversaries' countries. Over here in today's whacko environment, we hear nothing--probably because some wussified Biden Administration DEI-infused General apologized to them and promised them a weekend in Miami Beach before giving them a free first class flight home.

I've seen these "vultures" before and as recent as last evening here at the Peppermill, where we're taking a break for 3 days on our way up thru Idaho and then SD for the summer. I've not noticed vultures harassing the rec players, acting obnoxious or using foul body odor as a way of clearing the players out. Does this really occur even occasionally?

lmao. No doubt lots of CCP people around but exceptionally unlikely that is all of them or anywhere most of them.

Sour rooters just stand behind people close enough to invade personal space (they're there until you're done) but not so close to make people complain. That is the obnoxious aspect. They also are able to snatch the play up whenever the player leaves. They have no shame. You rarely see a white person do it. At least to the extent of standing behind the person. They'll sit down nearby but not do the whole vaguely intimidating thing.

[Don Perignom]

Did anyone listen to the podcast?

I haven't, wondering if I should.

I lasted 14 minutes. Months back I tried a previous episode and gave up.

Mostly it was about progressive jackpots. The guest, Buddy Frank, is either unclear or imprecise on terminology. He says when a video poker jackpot reaches a certain level, you can't lose.

That's not even true if a team locks up the entire bank.

Below was one of the first opportunities for the hosts to comment. Darrin Hoke on the right. Tell me if this makes any sense:

13:42
"It's that seed amount, and where that seed amount sits as it relates to the overall jackpot, so a great example you brought up, was the thousand-dollar win, 4000 coins or whatever it is, if the seed amount is $5000 and it doubles, that's a great machine to be playing. And you only have to invest a little bit of money to get into it, and you probably are gonna have a 100% return on your investment."

If you venture beyond that, please let me know if I missed anything.

[accountinquestion]

Did anyone listen to the podcast?

I haven't, wondering if I should.

I lasted 14 minutes. Months back I tried a previous episode and gave up.

Mostly it was about progressive jackpots. The guest, Buddy Frank, is either unclear or imprecise on terminology. He says when a video poker jackpot reaches a certain level, you can't lose.

That's not even true if a team locks up the entire bank.

Below was one of the first opportunities for the hosts to comment. Darrin Hoke on the right. Tell me if this makes any sense:

13:42
"It's that seed amount, and where that seed amount sits as it relates to the overall jackpot, so a great example you brought up, was the thousand-dollar win, 4000 coins or whatever it is, if the seed amount is $5000 and it doubles, that's a great machine to be playing. And you only have to invest a little bit of money to get into it, and you probably are gonna have a 100% return on your investment."

If you venture beyond that, please let me know if I missed anything.

Wow that is pretty bad but seems to be about right. The Hoke guy is sharpest by far. That Willy guy is lol clueless.

By "seed value" he likely means the base equity at resets. So if the seedvalue is low in relationship to the jackpot then it is more likely the machine is +EV.

[Don Perignom]

By "seed value" he likely means the base equity at resets.

It must be important because we had a forum member by that name, but somehow the details got scrambled from the way I understand them.

That CDC article by Buddy Frank didn't thrill me either. He's very hostile to APs calling them bad guys and abusers. But his own ethical standards are not exactly pristine. As he explains, players love persistence but it's inconvenient for operators. So his solution is to fake the persistence.

Imagine that type of solution in any other industry. People love beef, so let's substitute rat.

I've listened to a few different industry podcasts, and I'm not finding them to be sharp people.

[DGenBen]

By "seed value" he likely means the base equity at resets.

It must be important because we had a forum member by that name, but somehow the details got scrambled from the way I understand them.

That CDC article by Buddy Frank didn't thrill me either. He's very hostile to APs calling them bad guys and abusers. But his own ethical standards are not exactly pristine. As he explains, players love persistence but it's inconvenient for operators. So his solution is to fake the persistence.

Imagine that type of solution in any other industry. People love beef, so let's substitute rat.

I've listened to a few different industry podcasts, and I'm not finding them to be sharp people.

People love attractive women but there are not a lot of them so let’s get some guys to chop their dicks off & put on makeup.

[smurgerburger]

Did anyone listen to the podcast?

I haven't, wondering if I should.

I lasted 14 minutes. Months back I tried a previous episode and gave up.

Mostly it was about progressive jackpots. The guest, Buddy Frank, is either unclear or imprecise on terminology. He says when a video poker jackpot reaches a certain level, you can't lose.

That's not even true if a team locks up the entire bank.

Below was one of the first opportunities for the hosts to comment. Darrin Hoke on the right. Tell me if this makes any sense:

13:42
"It's that seed amount, and where that seed amount sits as it relates to the overall jackpot, so a great example you brought up, was the thousand-dollar win, 4000 coins or whatever it is, if the seed amount is $5000 and it doubles, that's a great machine to be playing. And you only have to invest a little bit of money to get into it, and you probably are gonna have a 100% return on your investment."

If you venture beyond that, please let me know if I missed anything.

Thanks for the summary.

In the part he quoted he seems to be saying that the current value of the progressive relative to the reset value determines the EV of the play.

Not literally true but I guess one can take that as a rule of thumb. Very low frequency progressives can get enormously big without making the slot +EV, very high frequency progressives (like the bottom one on the Safari game) get make the game +EV at say 3x reset value.

[mickeycrimm]

Buddy Frank dropped a dime on Bob Dancer saying they became friends when Bob helped them on a few things. I suspect he's at least talking about Revel. Dancer loves consulting contracts.

[mickeycrimm]

The Asians have a long history of monopolizing advantage plays. Go back 20 t0 25 years ago and they would watch a bank of advantage slots whether any of the machines were getting action or not. So when you showed up you were shit out of luck to get a play. They networked well. If a bank had more than one ploppie playing dude would call an associate to watch the other ploppie.

They would pull switches. If one dude got thrown out of Foxwoods and the other guy got thrown out of Mohegan they would just trade places. Sometimes they would trade longer distances like Connecticut and Michigan.

But I don't run into this stuff in most places. It's usually in the heavy urban areas. Buddy Frank made a big deal out of the asshole vultures that try to run people off machines. I've seen it before but it's few and far in between.

The Ascensions are lucrative if you can get the plays. That's why the Asians love them.

[jpfromla]

My local casino had the fu dai boost. There was a group of Asians constantly hovering around it. It got to the point that someone complained about it on Yelp and the next time I went to the casino they had cleared out the Asians.

[theywontpayontuesday]

Nobody likes monopolizing plays and them doing it, they are not playing by the rules so you don't have to either. If they are just line holders for someone else, fuck them over.

[mickeycrimm]

Oh, yeah. What Buddy Frank called "perceived persistence" is taking over the casino floors. Pros are not fooled by them but they plant the idea in the ploppie's head that they are both:

1. getting closer to hitting a jackpot
2. hitting a bigger jackpot

Here's a pic of a "fake persistent" slot.

You see that pots on the upper screens of the machines are various sizes. They start out empty and fill up as you are playing. It creates the perception that you are getting closer to hitting the payoff. But truth is the pots are irrelevant. The odds are fixed on hitting the payoff. And the payoff is not bigger based on the size of the pot.

In this pic the lady was on the machine on the right with low pots. Someone got up from the middle machine and she slid over because the pots are bigger on the middle machine. This is the kind of shit casinos are pulling these days. It's okay for them to fool you but not okay for you to fool them.

[DGenBen]

Some casinos are so worried about it they have implemented a no touch rule for the slot machines similar to face up card games.

If you want to play a machine you have to give the money to an attendant & tell them what bet you want to play and they will spin it for you.

Prior to letting you play it they will ask several questions about why you chose that specific machine in particular.

If they don’t like your answers or if anything about you makes it look like you are a winner they will say “You’re welcome to try one of our table games but we’re not comfortable with your slot machine play.”

[DGenBen]

Oh, yeah. What Buddy Frank called "perceived persistence" is taking over the casino floors. Pros are not fooled by them but they plant the idea in the ploppie's head that they are both:

1. getting closer to hitting a jackpot
2. hitting a bigger jackpot

Here's a pic of a "fake persistent" slot.

You see that pots on the upper screens of the machines are various sizes. They start out empty and fill up as you are playing. It creates the perception that you are getting closer to hitting the payoff. But truth is the pots are irrelevant. The odds are fixed on hitting the payoff. And the payoff is not bigger based on the size of the pot.

In this pic the lady was on the machine on the right with low pots. Someone got up from the middle machine and she slid over because the pots are bigger on the middle machine. This is the kind of shit casinos are pulling these days. It's okay for them to fool you but not okay for you to fool them.

Casinos want to have their cake and eat it too.

Everybody knows you can’t win on slots so lets give them a persistent feature where they actually have a chance to win so they’ll play more.

Oh wait! Now people are ACTUALLY winning! Ok let’s give them fake persistence instead.

It will probably work as well as near misses did. After awhile people figure out that near misses are BS and instead of making them feel like they almost won it just pisses them off & makes them feel toyed with and they quit playing.

Long term I think perceived persistence will go the way of the Dodo bird as people don’t like being lied to or manipulated.

Same thing happened with River Dragon. Once ploppies figured out they always went to the top, no one ever played them anymore & they are almost extinct.