Another casino back rooming incident

[jdog]

claiming those who know better are nothing but "trolls"

I'd say all that's pretty accurate but you forgot the part where he claims the trolls know he's telling the truth and just don't want to admit it.

[Ray Finkle]

The End....

[MDawg]

claiming those who know better are nothing but "trolls"

I'd say all that's pretty accurate but you forgot the part where he claims the trolls know he's telling the truth and just don't want to admit it.

It's not just that he lies.

It's the seriousness with which kewlJ tells these lies, and then lashes out at those who doubt them. There's a certain arrogance to those posts, in the tone, "Of course this is fucking true, and you're a complete idiot for even doubting this."

Or, to put it more succinctly,

My fucking god I can’t stand you. You are so fucking fake bro not real.

What I object to is making up complete bullshit lies in an attempt to discredit anyone who dared say they didn't believe him.

[DGenBen]

I haven't researched or looked into the legality of being backroomed in sin city but it's obviously an interesting subject.

Is there a Nevada statute or case law which prohibits it, other than general notions of false imprisonment?

Do the casinos give the detainee the initial choice to follow them to the back room?

For example, do they preface things with "Will you please come with us?"

If so they can argue waiver / voluntary compliance.

Were I ever asked to go with staff I'd refuse and attempt to leave...as should we all, in my opinion: "Just say NO."

They ask you to accompany them and then compel you when you refuse. (I guess sometimes they give up when you refuse but I've not heard of that).

The relevant tort is false imprisonment. They need something like reasonable suspicion that you have committed a gaming related crime to detain you (I assume there are other permissible grounds like actively commiting a violent crime but they aren't relevant here).

The problem is that with card counting and holecarding and other table games AP the suspected acts are not crimes in NV in the first place, therefore detaining you on suspicion of them is a false imprisonment.

Was searching for something unrelated & stumbled on this article on the FBI’s website of all places discussing what casino security can and can’t do.

Don’t know how accurate this is and its from 2015 but interesting reading

Heres the link to the whole article & I pasted the relevant part of the article below.

https://leb.fbi.gov/articles/feature...and-challenges

A major difference between private and public policing is that private security officers are not bound by the U.S. Supreme Court’s Fifth and Sixth Amendment decisions, such as Miranda v. Arizona, informing suspects of their right to an attorney prior to questioning, or Escobedo v. Illinois, allowing suspects to have an attorney present during questioning.8 Security officers can interview suspects without “Mirandizing” them and attempt to get a statement. Once they obtain the information, they turn the matter over to the local police.

These security officers have several options in their approaches to investigations, and their success often lies in the ability to obtain an incriminating statement from a suspect. Sometimes they attempt to exert leverage by implying that “If you cooperate, we will tell the police that you worked with us, and you might not be arrested.” They send a clear message that “We got you, but we will be your advocate with the police.” In the security officers’ world, potential violators have few, if any, rights while visiting the casino property; however, officers can make only citizens’ arrests because they lack the full arrest powers of the public police.

Private security officers must follow many of the same laws as municipal police. They cannot detain someone for a misdemeanor offense unless they actually see the act being committed in their presence. Although, shoplifting, even if not observed directly, involves the security officer making a citizen’s arrest, detaining the suspect, and calling local police. A common approach with trespassers is to give first-time offenders a notice, then, if they return, security has discretion (as do the public police) to detain or not. Security officers can warn and release the individual again or detain the person, call the police, and sign a complaint. Local law enforcement determines whether to release or arrest depending on certain factors, such as whether the jail is crowded, if the individual has identification, or whether the person is employed.

[jdog]

Interesting. So next question, what are the limitations of a citizen's arrest?

[DGenBen]

Interesting. So next question, what are the limitations of a citizen's arrest?

Varies by state but biggest difference is police have qualified immunity if they fuck something up but everyone else does not.

So a wrongful citizens arrest could potentially lead to financial liability or criminal charges (false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc.)

[jdog]

So a wrongful citizens arrest could potentially lead to financial liability or criminal charges (false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc.)

That's a huge difference. So were back to it would be a very bad idea to detain someone for counting or anything technically legal.

[kewlJ]

So a wrongful citizens arrest could potentially lead to financial liability or criminal charges (false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc.)

That's a huge difference. So were back to it would be a very bad idea to detain someone for counting or anything technically legal.

Of course it would be a bad idea. BUT this is routinely what occurred for years, even decades, before Grosjean changed that with his lawsuit and publicity around it

Now if you are speaking specifically about my case or the case I mentioned to start this thread (for which I only know what was told to me), neither of us were detained for card counting (me) or another AP play (second case).

We were both detained and taken to the backroom to sign trespass documents, which is even more bizarre to me. Signing a trespass document carries no more weight than a verbal trespass. So it is an exercise for no reason.

It is just a bad call or policy by someone in authority, for absolutely no beneficial reason for the casino. But then again, no one ever said some of these casino policies were anything but flat out stupidity.

[jdog]

Signing a trespass document carries no more weight than a verbal trespass.

Even if it technically carries no more legal weight it does give them a paper trail and also something to show, and possibly intimidate, the violator the next time they're caught.

[kewlJ]

Signing a trespass document carries no more weight than a verbal trespass.

Even if it technically carries no more legal weight it does give them a paper trail and also something to show, and possibly intimidate, the violator the next time they're caught.

BINGO! Intimidate has been a casino tactic forever.

[redietz]

Interesting. So next question, what are the limitations of a citizen's arrest?

Varies by state but biggest difference is police have qualified immunity if they fuck something up but everyone else does not.

So a wrongful citizens arrest could potentially lead to financial liability or criminal charges (false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc.)

The first football season that I stayed in Las Vegas (early 80's), my roommate (Andre) was a club security person by night and an occasional bounty hunter by day. He was very careful in how he handled things at night, and his bounty hunting obviously only occurred when a warrant had already been issued for an established felony and/or someone had skipped bail. I'm not sure exactly how it worked, but I believe he was considered an "officer of the law" when tracking down bail jumpers.

So my question is whether that is significantly different from "making a citizen's arrest?" If casino security is making "citizens' arrests" every time, I would think that puts them in a very pain-in-the-ass, vulnerable-to-lawsuit position. Are they always "officers of the law?" or not really? Are they "officers of the law" only in retrospect, namely, AFTER they legally prove somebody was breaking the law? That's one tenuous profession. If you are wrong once, you should be the person arrested.

[DGenBen]

Interesting. So next question, what are the limitations of a citizen's arrest?

Varies by state but biggest difference is police have qualified immunity if they fuck something up but everyone else does not.

So a wrongful citizens arrest could potentially lead to financial liability or criminal charges (false imprisonment, kidnapping, etc.)

The first football season that I stayed in Las Vegas (early 80's), my roommate (Andre) was a club security person by night and an occasional bounty hunter by day. He was very careful in how he handled things at night, and his bounty hunting obviously only occurred when a warrant had already been issued for an established felony and/or someone had skipped bail. I'm not sure exactly how it worked, but I believe he was considered an "officer of the law" when tracking down bail jumpers.

So my question is whether that is significantly different from "making a citizen's arrest?" If casino security is making "citizens' arrests" every time, I would think that puts them in a very pain-in-the-ass, vulnerable-to-lawsuit position. Are they always "officers of the law?" or not really? Are they "officers of the law" only in retrospect, namely, AFTER they legally prove somebody was breaking the law? That's one tenuous profession. If you are wrong once, you should be the person arrested.

I think that probably what makes the biggest difference is if a casino security guard screws up, nobody is going to come after the security guard financially.

The victim would come after the deep pocketed casino as they would have more assets than a security guard (lol)

Criminally if you are talking about Nevada, DA is probably not going to prosecute casino security guards criminally for anything other than very serious offensives.

I remember a story about a bouncer in a casino nightclub killing a patron and they did get prosecuted.

I believe that was in Reno at the El Dorado several years ago.

But just for back rooming someone, even if it’s a crime, since NV is so casino friendly, unlikely to lead to a criminal prosecution. Plus victim would be after a financial settlement & probably wouldn’t care much about the criminal side.

[kewlJ]

The problem continues to be, as it has for years/decades, is that card counting or most legitimate advantage plays aren't illegal. And the casinos and casino personnel KNOW this, but often will pretend they don't.

I can't tell you the number of times there has been a discission of card counting right at the table between some patron and a pit critter. These discussion used to make me uncomfortable and I would stay silent. But later it became an opportunity for me to chime in and say something like "card counting doesn't work. The only way to win, is to increase your wagers when you hit a winning streak". I would say this as a deflection, a pre-emptive explanation for why I varied my bets. Who knows if it bought me anything?

But anyway, these discussions usually went something like this: Player would ask "have you ever caught anyone counting cards?" Pit critter response: "Oh sure". Player: "what did you do?". Pit critter: "we turned them over to the police to be arrested".

I kid you not....I have probably heard this or something very similar a dozen times in my years in Vegas. Despite that every pit critter knows what he just said is bullshit and there is nothing illegal about card counting.

And THAT is what I mean when I say intimidation tactic. And security guards surrounding a player that they are going to back off or trespass, just an extension of that kind of intimidation tactic. And back-roomings have always been a further escalation of this intimidation tactic. And especially today, with this guise of backrooming so a player can sign a trespass agreement. What complete nonsense.

[kewlJ]

Btw, it is hard to bite my tongue and say nothing when I hear some pit critter say such a stupid thing as they turn card counters over to the police. It is hard, but I do it.

[kewlJ]

The casinos will also distance themselves from any security person (and throw them under the bus), even though the security person is doing exactly what they are told.

[MDawg]

The truth is … UNKewlJ hasn’t spent 20 years playing blackjack. He’s spent 20 years trying to convince people that he’s been playing blackjack.