Question about multi-denom slots

[MisterV]

I've read that typically the casinos set the RTP based on the featured bet amount, i.e. a penny slot has a lower RTP than a five dollar slot.

But what is the typical setting on a multi-denom slot?

I cannot fathom the RTP would be set to vary in a multi-denom, and if not...what is the typical "default" RTP: low, mid, or high?

[smurgerburger]

I've read that typically the casinos set the RTP based on the featured bet amount, i.e. a penny slot has a lower RTP than a five dollar slot.

But what is the typical setting on a multi-denom slot?

I cannot fathom the RTP would be set to vary in a multi-denom, and if not...what is the typical "default" RTP: low, mid, or high?

It's one setting per slot and typically whatever is standard for the lowest denom. (E.g. 1c/5c/10c slot will be set to whatever they set 1c slots to.)

I wouldn't say this is completely certain but it has been my experience.

[MisterV]

Well then if that is so then it might make more sense to avoid them if you want to play at the higher denomination figure.

[smurgerburger]

Well then if that is so then it might make more sense to avoid them if you want to play at the higher denomination figure.

Correct.

[jdog]

Any stats I've ever seen don't vary much based on denom anyway. RTP is probably set similarly on all slots at a given property or competitively for the property's local area.

[accountinquestion]

If you spin $5 mechanical reels then I would be surprised if the setting isn't 93 or 95 but take this with a literal grain of salt. Like at caesars it might be 85-90. It is weird though because a penny slot is often played for more than a dollar and the mechanical machines are slow. Who knows..

[smurgerburger]

Any stats I've ever seen don't vary much based on denom anyway. RTP is probably set similarly on all slots at a given property or competitively for the property's local area.

You might be looking at stats which pool VP and slots together. (Or rather class VP as slots.)

[jdog]

You might be looking at stats which pool VP and slots together. (Or rather class VP as slots.)

I've seen data from a few sources and none of them have specified VP separately so I would assume it's both together. But there are a whole lot less VP machines relatively now, so how much difference is it going to make? Regardless I've not found any of the numbers to be meaningful to me. Your mileage may vary.

I agree with AinQ, if you're talking old school reels with a fixed denom, then I would think the higher denoms might be a bit better.

[smurgerburger]

You might be looking at stats which pool VP and slots together. (Or rather class VP as slots.)

I've seen data from a few sources and none of them have specified VP separately so I would assume it's both together. But there are a whole lot less VP machines relatively now, so how much difference is it going to make? Regardless I've not found any of the numbers to be meaningful to me. Your mileage may vary.

I agree with AinQ, if you're talking old school reels with a fixed denom, then I would think the higher denoms might be a bit better.

Depends on the casino but considering how low VP holds tend to be relative to slots it can muddy the numbers.

[theywontpayontuesday]

Nm

[DGenBen]

I've read that typically the casinos set the RTP based on the featured bet amount, i.e. a penny slot has a lower RTP than a five dollar slot.

But what is the typical setting on a multi-denom slot?

I cannot fathom the RTP would be set to vary in a multi-denom, and if not...what is the typical "default" RTP: low, mid, or high?

Why can’t you fathom why the RTP would be set to vary in a mulit-denom?

There are games out there right now where you can bet as little as 30 cents up to a $100 on the same game by switching denoms.

Do you think the casinos & the slot manufacturers would be happy if the 30 cent bettor who is tying up a machine & occupying space & resources gets the same return as a $100 a spin whale?

Or do you think casinos might be happier if the 30 cent bettor gets an RTP of 85% (still only 4.5 cents per spin theo, ugh!) while the $100 bettor instead of getting whacked for $15 a spin theo and likely busting out fast gets say a 94% RTP where his theo is $6 a spin?

Which do you think makes better business sense?

[mickeycrimm]

There is plenty of evidence that rtp is higher at the higher bet levels on a multi denom slot. First thing to look for is slight payscale difference. I've seen this quite a bit.

Another thing is where progressive free spins or games are involved the reset numbers can be higher at the higher bet levels. If everything else in the game is the same then the higher bet levels have higher paybacks. Exploitable games like Farmville Golden Harvest, Life of Luxury Hot Diamonds and Mighty Cash have different reset numbers per bet level.

The U1 multi game slots show the rtp per the game and the bet level. Stop the video at 0:17 and look to the lower right. You'll see the payback range from 94.5% to 98%. The higher the bet level the higher the rtp.

[MisterV]

Why can’t you fathom why the RTP would be set to vary in a mulit-denom?

I'm talking about the only slots that I play, and they are quite old, perhaps too old to allow for such RTP variation.

I play slots with three mechanical reels like Double Diamond Deluxe and Double 3x4x5x Pay.

I would hope for RTP variations in the games I play, I simply don't know if that happens or not, which is why I asked.

[jdog]

A little off topic but... No matter what external data is available I think it's unlikely anyone could determine an accurate RTP of any given game/denom without doing extensive testing or seeing the payback screen. But we should be able to get some idea of if one casino pays better overall relative to another. I've always felt it's reasonable to assume VP paybacks should give you a pretty good idea, better VP RTP then likely better slot RTP. But someone correct me if you think I'm off base here.

[accountinquestion]

A little off topic but... No matter what external data is available I think it's unlikely anyone could determine an accurate RTP of any given game/denom without doing extensive testing or seeing the payback screen. But we should be able to get some idea of if one casino pays better overall relative to another. I've always felt it's reasonable to assume VP paybacks should give you a pretty good idea, better VP RTP then likely better slot RTP. But someone correct me if you think I'm off base here.

Yea or find a machine that is open and has a configuration screen up. The 15s game. Then perhaps the resets are different. Could try to chat up a slot tech. They might know.

[DGenBen]

A little off topic but... No matter what external data is available I think it's unlikely anyone could determine an accurate RTP of any given game/denom without doing extensive testing or seeing the payback screen. But we should be able to get some idea of if one casino pays better overall relative to another. I've always felt it's reasonable to assume VP paybacks should give you a pretty good idea, better VP RTP then likely better slot RTP. But someone correct me if you think I'm off base here.

In a vacuum that is a pretty good rule of thumb.

Sometimes you see some odd exceptions though. Caesars properties with their 85% penny slot RTP often have really good VP.

And one of my locals has god awful VP but penny slots are at 89% and higher denoms are 92-94%

[smurgerburger]

There is plenty of evidence that rtp is higher at the higher bet levels on a multi denom slot. First thing to look for is slight payscale difference. I've seen this quite a bit.

Another thing is where progressive free spins or games are involved the reset numbers can be higher at the higher bet levels. If everything else in the game is the same then the higher bet levels have higher paybacks. Exploitable games like Farmville Golden Harvest, Life of Luxury Hot Diamonds and Mighty Cash have different reset numbers per bet level.

The U1 multi game slots show the rtp per the game and the bet level. Stop the video at 0:17 and look to the lower right. You'll see the payback range from 94.5% to 98%. The higher the bet level the higher the rtp.

Late response.

I thought of mentioning this in my post but didn't bother. I was referring to the machine level setting, not differences in RTP at higher bet level (as opposed to higher denom). Buffalo Diamond being an example of higher RTP at a higher bet level.

To Ben's point yes in theory it would make sense for them to have a higher RTP at higher denoms but I've never seen this as an option.

One reason the casinos may not desire the option is that they typically only have one theo setting per machine for player evaluation, which if applied to a multi-denom slot with multiple RTPs would muddy their data and be easily exploitable.

You'd also got odd scenarios where someone betting $7 per spin at 1c denom has a worse RTP then someone betting $1.50 per spin at 2c denom.

But it may just have to do with regulatory requirements relating to RTP make it easier to stick to one setting per machine.

[Advantageplay]

They are 10000 percent set different for diff bet sizes and demons.
This is evident not only from par sheets but from seeing the games with my own eyes when they were being set up
Aristocrat for example has spreads of sometimes 5 percent difference from min bet min demon to max bet max denom

[smurgerburger]

They are 10000 percent set different for diff bet sizes and demons.
This is evident not only from par sheets but from seeing the games with my own eyes when they were being set up
Aristocrat for example has spreads of sometimes 5 percent difference from min bet min demon to max bet max denom

Is it all keyed to one setting or can they set the denom RTPs independently?

For example if it's a Farmville and the casino wants the worst possible RTP do they just pick one menu option, and then that will give say 85% at the penny denom lowest bet up to 90% at the 10c highest bet?

[mickeycrimm]

They are 10000 percent set different for diff bet sizes and demons.
This is evident not only from par sheets but from seeing the games with my own eyes when they were being set up
Aristocrat for example has spreads of sometimes 5 percent difference from min bet min demon to max bet max denom

Is it all keyed to one setting or can they set the denom RTPs independently?

For example if it's a Farmville and the casino wants the worst possible RTP do they just pick one menu option, and then that will give say 85% at the penny denom lowest bet up to 90% at the 10c highest bet?

This came off a par sheet. I've had it for several years. The Texas Tea Pinball was exploitable but is extinct now. So I've known for a long time that IGT games can be different paybacks for diffferent pay levels. The hold percentage is written as 10.499% but that would be only for the $3 bet level. The other bet levels are lower payback. The paybacks increase by 1% per bet level: