ASM revisited again!

[kewlJ]

I give you a straight answer. Same as acct and other trolls. YOU just don't want to hear it and won't accept it, so you twist what I say and lie and ask a million more questions like I am on trial and obligated to answer you.

My next move will be what mickey and every other real AP does and has done on every forum you have ever been on, and that is to ignore your trolling ass.

[coach belly]

I give you a straight answer.

You consider "There's no way to know" and "I don't remember" straight answers?

LOL...OK.

If you generated several millions of dollars in Freeplay offers, then you must have wagered multi-millions of dollars in machine play to generate those offers.

And if you ran several millions of dollars in Freeplay through, then you must have cashed out millions after converting 90% of that FP to cash.

Are you denying any of that?

Or are you so ashamed of having done it, that you don't want to explain the math?

[kewlJ]

If there is no way for me to know or I don't remember....absolutely.

You can't seem to get it through your head that I am NOT on trial. I am an AP that share some of what I do.....what I decide I want to share. NOT you. And if at anytime you or someone else asks something I don't want to answer for whatever reason, then I don't have to answer.

That said, I try to answer any questions about what I have said. But I am not going to play your fucking troll games, you long-running troll.

[coach belly]

I am NOT on trial. And if at anytime you or someone else asks something I don't want to answer for whatever reason, then I don't have to answer.

Nobody thinks you are on trial, and you're not required to answer questions.

But when others ignore your questions about their claims, you call them liars.

So what does that say about you, when you duck questions about your own claims?

You claimed to have played several millions of dollars in Freeplay over 8 years.

That's not possible without generating those offers.

The math will explain what coin-in was required to generate those offers.

If you played several millions of dollars in Freeplay through, then you would have cashed out for millions.

The math will explain how it was possible to cash out for that much.

But suddenly, you're no longer interested in explaining the math behind AP.

You also claim that you do not know how much was wagered, how much was lost, and how much you earned from the play.

You know exactly how much you earned from BJ for each of the last 20 years, but have no recollection, and no way to know how much you earned from the mail play?

THAT is not how AP works, THAT is not how life works...you're obviously lying again.

[accountinquestion]

I dunno what to tell you bro. Once you leave gambling circles and go into the normal straight world where your associates and peers are professionals of some sorts - gambling tends to be looked down on more than not. ESPECIALLY amongst women. Go look at a serious list of 'undesirable traits for partners' .. it will definitely have gambing on it.

I care what successful professional people think because those are the closest to my peers if I don't stay in that gamblin' life. Sure there are handful of nerdy poker geek girls and I'm pretty sure more than one has had eyes for me but honestly i don't find it an attractive trait in women. Maybe if I wanted to be deep in that life til I died but I really prefer to more or less put it behind me. Sitting at a table for hours waiting for cards .. or occupying your brain constantly with the running count .. just sucks relative to other options I have.

I am really quite perplexed by this. Should I be looking down on Mickeycrimm, Axelwolf, Zenking and people like Munchkin that I admire because the make a living gambling? Should I look down on Dan Druff because he is "a nerdy poker player"? Weird ! I don't even look down on Redietz for being a tout. I do look down on his because he told us he was something else all these year. People just making a living gambling. Not hurting anyone. No worse than most other things people do.

And the "contributes nothing to society" argument just in no way works. If you earn money legally, pay taxes, buy groceries and gas and anything else that contributes to the economy and keeping people working, you contribute to society just the same if your income comes from gambling as if you are an Attorney (MrV) or doctor, CEO of a company or whatever.

Maybe that is just me.

lol. Keep it real, guy.

Professional gamblers are about the money and don't give a shit about my opinion. Or they respect my opinion but understand reality. It is what it is. shrug

[MDawg]

Why are you still here?

[accountinquestion]

Meh. Maybe in LV where 2/3s of all mother are prostitutes or dancers they don't look down on it. j/k

Jesus dude. Yes there are some prostitute females in Vegas. And some show girls ect, more than other cities, which all cities have them.

But try getting away from the strip a bit, maybe Summerlin, or parts of Henderson or even Northwest. where newer homes are being built and over-built. . Most females are what you call normal females. Mothers, that work "normal jobs", some professional. Big healthcare industry here. Lot of nurses and even doctors.

I am sure you have been to Vegas during your AP 6 month period, and didn't you play poker? so probably involved with that. And I think you recently mentioned a trip here with a GF or something, but jeez, sure seems like your view of Las Vegas is almost something from the movies or something.

I don't know about the females you hang with but YOU acctinQ seem to be the judgemental one caring about what people do and think.

So funny. It is clear you are looking for a fight and want me to just sit here and point out who you are. Whatever - feel like you've won this battle. I find people like you fascinating because it is so far removed from where I am that I have a hard time understanding how a guy like you can exist.

Did you not see where I finished my joke with "j/k". Do you not know what that means?

I think smurger is on to something about you intentionally misunderstanding. I just thought he was thinking too highly of you but didn't give it that much thought.

There are hospitals in every city btw. lol.

I care because I don't want to be limited signficantly from a big portion of smart educated careered women. I can't show some cool Tournament Hendon Mob page. I just have tons of lol stories about hardcore gambling degenerates. Educated women like that are smart. Piercing. There are various other issues at play here which I'm not going to insert into the conversation.

Anyway man yea gambling is so cool and interest and we're james bond and you average woman who is disturbed by my multi-carding should just fuck off !

Honest, she needs to be some form of a degenerate - basically. Or need your money. Dating is a market. What you both have to offer. Whats what being a gambler leads to - some form of a degenerate woman or a broke one who needs you for your $$.

[kewlJ]

I am NOT on trial. And if at anytime you or someone else asks something I don't want to answer for whatever reason, then I don't have to answer.

Nobody thinks you are on trial, and you're not required to answer questions.

But when others ignore your questions about their claims, you call them liars.

So what does that say about you, when you duck questions about your own claims?

You claimed to have played several millions of dollars in Freeplay over 8 years.

That's not possible without generating those offers.

The math will explain what coin-in was required to generate those offers.

If you played several millions of dollars in Freeplay through, then you would have cashed out for millions.

The math will explain how it was possible to cash out for that much.

But suddenly, you're no longer interested in explaining the math behind AP.

You also claim that you do not know how much was wagered, how much was lost, and how much you earned from the play.

You know exactly how much you earned from BJ for each of the last 20 years, but have no recollection, and no way to know how much you earned from the mail play?

THAT is not how AP works, THAT is not how life works...you're obviously lying again.

there are a couple fair points here so I will answer BEST I CAN.

First lets move that number back to 1.5 million. And that isn't me changing the story. As I explained roughly off the top of my head figuring the number of mailers we received each month and the amounts of the offers, I said 2 million. But all mailers and offers weren't at the top of the cycle or highest amount every month. So lets say 1.5 million. I think that is fair, probably not exact, maybe not even close but I think it would be somewhat close.

So yes you can ask how much of that 1.5 million was cashed out. Whatever it was and I don't have the answer, but whatever it was, does not mean that was profit. There was a loss on the initial coin in to get that 1.5. and if you are looking at the whole 8 years, that would be a good amount. Maybe half? I don't know.

So lets guesstimate the math if it is important to you. I don't like doing that but here goes"

We cash out 1.5 million, lets say @ 90% That is low but I already told you I always knew my parter had leaks in his game.

So we cash out 1.35 million. cost 800k to get that. Profit 550k over 8 years. And that is divide by the two of us. Now you are talking 275k profit each. And that isn't far off. I have always said that I averaged about 75-80K from blackjack for those years and another 20-25k from my share of our mailer VP machine play.

Puts it right there, ballpark of what I claimed. I just don't like all this guesstimation. And I don't have the records for that.

Which brings me to the second thing you said about how I kept pretty detailed records for my blackjack but not as much for the VP/mailer play.

Absolutely correct! I am primarily a card counter. THAT is what I did in AC as I learned how and what to do. THAT is what I moved to Vegas to do and be. I didn't move to Vegas to play VP and the mailer game. The only reason I got into that at all was an AP friend convinced me that not doing so in Vegas where casinos were almost fighting over VP players at the time giving good offers, was like leaving money on the table. So I did a little supplementary, and when my partner moved to Vegas a year after me, it was a perfect scenario. Something for him to do and us both make a little supplemental money while I did what I came to Vegas to do.....play blackjack

So no I didn't have the same passion about that nor keep the detailed records. That we were making some extra (supplemental) money was fine. Like I said record keeping can really bog you down, depending on how much you get into it. You can easily spend more time record keeping than playing. And that includes blackjack.

there is an old rule of thumb with blackjack card counting AP, that whatever time you actually spend at the tables playing, you will spend the same between scouting and moving between games and record-keeping. There is some value in record keeping, but it is easy to over do it and not get much value from it. Several times over the years I have said, you know what, I don't need all this and simplified my record keeping.

But as always, I am pretty sure this wont satisfy you.

[kewlJ]

So funny. It is clear you are looking for a fight and want me to just sit here and point out who you are. Whatever - feel like you've won this battle. .

Nope, not looking for a fight at all. Nor do I care about these troll battles. Just seems from multiple comments you seem to have a view of Las Vegas that is very similar to how it is portrayed in old movies.

A lot of people that don't live here don't really understand all there is to Las Vegas. Thers is the strip and downtown. THAT is what everyone knows. And the immediate surrounding areas to those two especially on the east side, are some of the bad areas like all cities have. But there are some really nice areas as well, suburban type areas and settings, where people live what you think of as normal lives. Kids and schools and the whole works. Most people don't think of that and most people that come to Vegas don't see any of that. They see the strip and downtown Fremont street and think that is Las Vegas.

Do you know most locals that live here, almost never even go near the strip

[MDawg]

Why are you still here?

[jdaewoo]

This retard is a closeted homosexual.

[AxelWolf]

IE X amount of coin in will get you X amount, or X amount of losses will get you X amount, or X amount of coin in plus X amount of losses with get you X amount.

Will you stipulate that APs, who are primarily working the mail (for instance, darkoz), would know the value of the for X in your examples above?

If you (AW) were to run FP through once, what percentage of the FP would you expect to convert to a cashable ticket?

I would expect that running several millions of dollars of FP through a machine would return an amount that's very close to the RTP for whatever game was played. Is that a reasonable assumption?

Are you able to estimate how much coin-in would be required to generate several millions of dollars in FP? Not necessary to cover every permutation, just base your estimate on scenarios that you are familiar with....

There's usually a sweet spot that will earn you the maximum auto-generated free play offers while giving up the least amount on the machines in the least amount of time.

I am not going to divulge any names, but nowadays, there are lots of people out there doing it(I'll get to that later) many whom I've never met, and I probably never will. There 100s of people doing it nowadays.

Yes, one should come close to the machine's RTP. Depending on the games/machines you play, one wouldn't even need to run anywhere near millions of dollars through to get close to the RTP. Sure, you could be off 1 or 2 % either way. And again, it highly depends on what game you're playing. If you're playing something super volatile like 10 play Ultimate X VP, you're going to be all over the map. If you're playing something like Video Blackjack, you should be getting close to your EV fairly quickly. If you're able to find a game like roulette that accepts free play, and you're allowed to make offsetting bets, obviously, you're going to hit your EV.


Again, with your question on earning millions in free play. Are we talking multi-carding at many casinos, or are we talking about one person playing on their individual card at one location, or multiple locations? I'll just say this: One should be able to "easily" find places that will generate 50% of your coin-in back in free play. But that's not going to happen with one person playing their own card at one Casino for large amounts of free play; again, there's usually a cap. And heck, there's probably someone out there who has found such a spectacular situation where they're getting large amounts of free play for relatively very little action.

I played in a situation where my theoretical and total loss was about $50-$150 with no fluctuation, and it generated thousands in free play along with RFB and more, the total amount of time it took to earn the free play was less than 2 hours. But that's where the Simplicity stopped, it took a few months to collect the free play, you had to check in, etc.

[MisterV]

A lot of people that don't live here don't really understand all there is to Las Vegas. Thers is the strip and downtown. THAT is what everyone knows. And the immediate surrounding areas to those two especially on the east side, are some of the bad areas like all cities have.

KJ, I know there are some bad sections to the east, but I thought some of the worst areas were to the north?

[kewlJ]

A lot of people that don't live here don't really understand all there is to Las Vegas. Thers is the strip and downtown. THAT is what everyone knows. And the immediate surrounding areas to those two especially on the east side, are some of the bad areas like all cities have.

KJ, I know there are some bad sections to the east, but I thought some of the worst areas were to the north?

Yep, some bad areas north. Just north of the downtown (Fremont) area is the homeless corridor, that Dawg frequently mentions in his trolling, with several different shelters and such. Just a little bit north of that and you are in North Las Vegas, which is a separate little city, which also has good and bad areas. But east of the strip, all the way out to Boulder Highway is not a great area, with sections that are really bad with drugs and crime. You can debate which is the worst.

[MDawg]

Puppets like KewlJ give me the horrors. They jerk around like puppets on invisible strings, galvanized into hideous activity that is the negation of everything living and spontaneous.

The live human being has moved out of KewlJ’s body long ago. But something moved in when the original tenant moved out. And that something, is the Norm’s, The WizardsofVegas, the RobSingers, the Taters/Moses, the MDawgs who marched into KewlJ’s head and took over like ventriloquists' dummies who have moved in and taken over the ventriloquist. The dummy KewlJ sits there in front of the computer, envious, jealous, obsessed, and uncontrollably yapping out of a rigid doll face about MDawg.

There is a certain kind of ghost that can only materialize with the aid of a sheet or other piece of cloth to give it outline. KewlJ was like that. He materialized only when someone else moved into his head and gave him a reason to appear.

[coach belly]

it took a few months to collect the free play

Is that a typical time period required to cash all FP out generated from an initial seed wager, and complete the play?

Does this mean that the loss incurred shouldn't be expected to be recovered for at least some months after the initial wager, and any profit shouldn't be expected to be available as cash until some months after the initial loss is recovered?

I'm asking about a typical scenario. It's understood that the player can be made whole, and a profit cashed out, from playing off the first $50 of FP, if they happen to hit a $100K jackpot.

[coach belly]

One should be able to "easily" find places that will generate 50% of your coin-in back in free play.

So under this scenario, if the total FP generated is $1.5M, then the total wager (coin-in) would have been $3M.

If the FP was converted to cash at the rate of 90%, then it's reasonable to assume that the RTP on the coin-in was 90% as well.

So a 10% loss on a $3M total wager would be $300K.

That is to say, one could reasonably expect to generate $1.5M in FP from a $3M total wager, with an expected loss of $300K, and an overall profit on the play of $1.05M.

Is that an accurate summary of the math of an AP mail play?

[kewlJ]

LMAO at CB continuing attempts to troll me. AW already told him that no two situations are the same. Casinos all do FP and mailers differently, using different formulas. Can it be ANY clearer from his questions to Wolf that belly has no idea how the FP mailer game worked? Wont' stop him though. What a loser!

The only good from CB's trolling is a good discussion about how the FP/mailer game worked in Vegas a decade ago. Unfortunately, that isn't going to help anyone as it is not the way it works today at most places.