New low for Caesars: Linq high limit room features a $100/credit 6-5 Jacks or Better game

[Dan Druff]

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There's also 8-5 Double Bonus, 7-5 Triple Double Bonus, and 6-5 Bonus (which I guess you might as well play if you're otherwise playing 6-5 Jacks!)


Horrible.

An unwritten rule of Vegas has always been that you don't gouge the high limit players odds-wise, because their average bet is high enough to where you're already making plenty on them no matter what.

This is just straight up attempting to take advantage of people's ignorance -- rich guys who want to "get lucky" at video poker at high stakes, without realizing why these paytables matter so much.

[Dan Druff]

I once had a friend who didn't care about paytables. He was chasing the big hits. No matter how much I tried to convince him to stop playing shit paytables, he wouldn't, even if better ones at the same game were in the same casino at the same denominations.

Anyway I was with him in Vegas and he sat down at a $5 8-5 machine where it should have been 9-6.

I said to him, "Give me your wallet, I'll hold it while you play."

He asked why.

I replied, "Every time you hit a flush or full house, I'm going to steal $25 from you."

He answered, "What?! Why would you do that?"

I said, "Because that's what the casino is doing to you every time you play 8-5 and hit a flush or full house. They're reaching into your wallet and stealing $25 from you. So since you apparently don't care about that, I'm going to also steal $25 from you."

This actually made an impact. He said, "That's funny. Okay, you got me. I actually agree with you now. Yeah, this is really stupid for me to play machines like this. I guess you had to put it that way for me to see it."


I encourage doing the same to anyone you know who plays shitty paytables with disregard.

[kewlJ]

I have seen several incidents of this KIND of thing. A 6:5 blackjack table right next to a 3:2 table of the same denomination. Haven't seen but heard of a 3 zero roulette table right next to a 2 zero table, both open.

It costs them little to throw a shit game or table in and see if people will play. If people play, the casino makes even more money. If people refuse to play, which you would hope they would at higher limits, the casino will remove the table or game or change the odds back to something reasonable.

The world for this shit is "greed" and it goes right back to the discussion of how things were different when real casino people ran things. Real casino people wouldn't have insulted the higher limit players like that. The business school geeks don't give a shit.

[accountinquestion]

I once had a friend who didn't care about paytables. He was chasing the big hits. No matter how much I tried to convince him to stop playing shit paytables, he wouldn't, even if better ones at the same game were in the same casino at the same denominations.

Anyway I was with him in Vegas and he sat down at a $5 8-5 machine where it should have been 9-6.

I said to him, "Give me your wallet, I'll hold it while you play."

He asked why.

I replied, "Every time you hit a flush or full house, I'm going to steal $25 from you."

He answered, "What?! Why would you do that?"

I said, "Because that's what the casino is doing to you every time you play 8-5 and hit a flush or full house. They're reaching into your wallet and stealing $25 from you. So since you apparently don't care about that, I'm going to also steal $25 from you."

This actually made an impact. He said, "That's funny. Okay, you got me. I actually agree with you now. Yeah, this is really stupid for me to play machines like this. I guess you had to put it that way for me to see it."


I encourage doing the same to anyone you know who plays shitty paytables with disregard.

For a guy who annoyingly thinks in terms of odds/probabilities it is amazing to me how many people have so little clue about math and eventualities. Like even amongst people you consider smart. Maybe it is a matter of being stubborn about being wrong. Shit just seems so obvious. It is probably why a lot of people are successful in business and those aren't.

You Jews pass on the math skills far better than most. lol

The thing I like to tell people is that at some of these Indian joints many hours away the slot machines pay 90-92.5 .. go to LV and they're 85%. By the math you can literally play almost twice as long or lose half as slowly. It is so significant. If you like to gamble that much then it should be a no-brainer.

More chances to hit that big lick.

[Dan Druff]

I had another person tell me that they are only chasing the big hits, so they don't care about paytables, and they don't care about losing $25 here or $25 there from a full house or flush.

I told the guy, "Okay, but you realize each one of those gives you a full additional chance to hit something big. Like, think of it as getting a free additional hand to play every time you get a flush or full house, if you're playing 9-6. And maybe that will be the lucky hand which will win you the big money?"

Again, that resonated, and this person swore they would look more carefully at paytables.

[Dan Druff]

I have seen several incidents of this KIND of thing. A 6:5 blackjack table right next to a 3:2 table of the same denomination. Haven't seen but heard of a 3 zero roulette table right next to a 2 zero table, both open.

It costs them little to throw a shit game or table in and see if people will play. If people play, the casino makes even more money. If people refuse to play, which you would hope they would at higher limits, the casino will remove the table or game or change the odds back to something reasonable.

The world for this shit is "greed" and it goes right back to the discussion of how things were different when real casino people ran things. Real casino people wouldn't have insulted the higher limit players like that. The business school geeks don't give a shit.

That's not the same here.

This is a high limit section, and it's an insult to the high limit player to present games like that, even if most will see it and seek out better paytables elsewhere in the room (if they exist).

As I said, it's always been an unwritten rule that you provide fairly good games in the high limit room. I realize Caesars has somewhat violated that recently, but I hadn't seen it this egregious until now.

[Don Perignom]

This actually made an impact. He said, "That's funny. Okay, you got me. I actually agree with you now. Yeah, this is really stupid for me to play machines like this. I guess you had to put it that way for me to see it."

I encourage doing the same to anyone you know who plays shitty paytables with disregard.

I told the guy, "Okay, but you realize each one of those gives you a full additional chance to hit something big. Like, think of it as getting a free additional hand to play every time you get a flush or full house, if you're playing 9-6. And maybe that will be the lucky hand which will win you the big money?"

Again, that resonated, and this person swore they would look more carefully at paytables.

That's nice, but they'll still go back to the 8-5s when they run bad at 9-6.

[Dan Druff]

This actually made an impact. He said, "That's funny. Okay, you got me. I actually agree with you now. Yeah, this is really stupid for me to play machines like this. I guess you had to put it that way for me to see it."

I encourage doing the same to anyone you know who plays shitty paytables with disregard.

I told the guy, "Okay, but you realize each one of those gives you a full additional chance to hit something big. Like, think of it as getting a free additional hand to play every time you get a flush or full house, if you're playing 9-6. And maybe that will be the lucky hand which will win you the big money?"

Again, that resonated, and this person swore they would look more carefully at paytables.

That's nice, but they'll still go back to the 8-5s when they run bad at 9-6.

Probably. I had someone do that involving 6-5 blackjack. They asked me a million questions about blackjack strategy, and I kept repeating that the most important thing they could do was avoid 6-5 tables. This was back before 6-5 took over Vegas, so it was a mixture of 3-2 and 6-5 in most casinos.

Anyway this person heeded my advice for about 2 hours, before running back to a 6-5 table because it felt "luckier".

I gave up.

[kewlJ]

I first heard of 6:5 BJ when I was still living back east and playing AC. There was no 6:5 blackjack during any of my time in AC (2004-2009) that I recall but I think it came shortly after.

So my first encounter with 6:5 was during a trip to Vegas before I moved here. I think it was my last trip where I stayed in a rooming house type accommodations for 5 weeks during July/August (smart move) probably 2008.

The Fitzgerald (now the D) had 6:5 tables right along side 3:2 table of the same denomination. And inexplicably...to me anyway....the 6:5 were always packed.

Just after I moved to Vegas a year later, there was the makings of a campaign against 6:5 blackjack. Several websites I was on had the red circle slash through thing saying "No 6:5 blackjack". And there were even a few billboards around town with that same message and circle slash. I don't know who sponsored that, maybe one of the websites like BJ21.

But in the end only AP's and I guess a few guys that just understood the math, refused to play. I feel like if more people (even ploppies) understood what it was, maybe we could have stopped it before it got going. But it was not to be.

[kewlJ]

I think part of the genius (hate to say it) of 6:5 BJ was that it started at the lowest limit tables. $5 bettors if they did the math at all, figured it cost them $1.50 per blackjack. $10 it cost $3 per blackjack and they said "I can live with that". Had they figured that playing $50 a hand would cost $15 and multiply that by 3 blackjacks an hour and I think we would have had a fighting chance at stopping it.

One of the appeals of blackjack, even after h17 came along is that most games have a house edge of about half a percent. So just flat betting playing a good basic strategy the player should only lose a small amount and their money should hold out a while.

Now if you look at an edge calculator it will show for example 6 deck, H17 at .64 house edge. Double deck at .46% house edge. Now change the setting to 6:5 and it shows 1.99% (6 deck) and 1.82% DD. The house edge triples and quadruples. If we could have somehow made players understand that, maybe they would have understood how devastating it would be and how much quicker their money would go.

[Dan Druff]

Just deleted MDawg's post for trolling (not even aimed at kewlJ this time), and banned him from the thread.

I'm going to be doing a lot more of this going forward, where post deletions and thread bans will occur for those who disrupt good threads.

Anyway, back to the topic.

[Dan Druff]

I think part of the genius (hate to say it) of 6:5 BJ was that it started at the lowest limit tables. $5 bettors if they did the math at all, figured it cost them $1.50 per blackjack. $10 it cost $3 per blackjack and they said "I can live with that". Had they figured that playing $50 a hand would cost $15 and multiply that by 3 blackjacks an hour and I think we would have had a fighting chance at stopping it.

One of the appeals of blackjack, even after h17 came along is that most games have a house edge of about half a percent. So just flat betting playing a good basic strategy the player should only lose a small amount and their money should hold out a while.

You must not fully remember the history of 6:5. Maybe because you're a bit younger than most of us?

It began about 20-25 years ago (my memory says 2002, but maybe I'm a bit off), and started only at single deck. I believe it was invented by Harrah's -- or at least that's where I first noticed it. There was a pit called "Single Deck Blackjack", and it was quite busy. The 6:5 was at first only stated on the felt, and then eventually was printed on a small sign placed on the side of the table (presumably after complaints by people who weren't aware of it until they hit a blackjack).

This pit was VERY busy. I remember walking through Harrah's with my then-girlfriend, and noting how stupid those people were -- playing 6:5 blackjack when 3:2 tables at the same limits were just steps away.

Then I realized it. It was the single deck thing.

People had long heard that single deck was "best", though they didn't quite understand why. They heard that single deck was "what the pros play", knew that it had something to do with the ease of counting cards, but in general had it in their head that it was the most advantageous for the player.

Maybe some of them believed that card counters got their edge from remembering every dealt card (Rain Man style), and if they could do even some fraction of that, they could also play with an edge over the casino.

Maybe some of them just internalized "single deck = good", and were attracted to that pit.

These same people were also too ignorant to understand how much worse 6:5 was ("Hey, how often do I get blackjack anyway? This small difference couldn't determine whether I win or lose!"), and some probably didn't even know that 6:5 was any different than normal.

After these 6:5 pits were a huge success, they expanded more and more around Vegas, then eventually showed up at other pits besides single deck, then eventually took over all low limit blackjack, then eventually took over all mid-limit blackjack.

This was slow-dripped to the gambling public, in an attempt to see if they'd go for it, and when they did, it became the norm.

Casinos were slow to fully understand that the '90s changed Vegas forever. It switched from a gambling town to an entertainment/conference destination. Most of the gamblers were now ignorant to odds, rules, paytables, etc. In the 1980s, a 6:5 game would've been laughed out of town. It would have been perpetually empty. That's because 1980s blackjack players largely had a clue. By the mid-90s, many visitors to Vegas weren't gamblers -- they would just occasionally gamble if it was in front of them, and didn't mind that they didn't understand what they were playing.

Vegas took awhile to catch on, but they eventually did.

Unfortunately, they chose to keep pressing to the point where they ruined the typical player's chance to finish a trip winning money, barring occasional jackpot hits. Then they wonder why people don't feel the desire to come back.

[kewlJ]

You must not fully remember the history of 6:5. Maybe because you're a bit younger than most of us?

I am younger than many here, plus 6:5 didn't come to AXC where I started out until just about the time I left. So I never dealt with it until I visited and moved to Vegas. Starting at Single deck sounds familiar to me, I don't know why.

But while 6:5 didn't hit AC until about the time I left (2009) I knew a guy from the forums that destroyed it in Atlantic City for at least a few years. He is over at Wizards forum now.

He destroyed it because at least at the beginning, the casinos in AC were so convinced that it could not be beaten because of the high house advantage, they allowed him to spread wildly! Like $5 or $10 to $500. Huge spread. Also came with huge variance but he was willing to accept that and in the end did quite well. I remember he posted that pit people were almost laughing at him trying to beat the game with card counting. They were laughing until all of the sudden they weren't. HE got the last laugh.

[jdaewoo]

Those games were a goldmine. But if you tried to attack a sea of games with dealers that never dealt pitch before by counting, then you were retarded.

Same thing with the party pit explosion during the same timeframe. Dealers selected for their tits rather than experience were fucking amazing.

And holy hell, party pits with single deck pitch? They were fucking ATMs.

[kewlJ]

You are talking party pits in AC? I don't remember that. but like I said 6:5 was not there yet or just arriving when I departed AC.

I did encounter some party pits here in Vegas for regular 3:2 BJ. Didn't like them. The game moved way to slow. I can't afford to cut my EV in half like that. Now with what I am currently doing, playing busier times, I am cutting my EV down with slower games, but it is much higher EV to start with because of increased stakes.

The hard part for me was just adjusting to a slower game than I was used to. Just has an unnatural flow and feel to it.

[Dan Druff]

Biggest problem with a slow BJ game is that it gives them more time to notice what you're doing and kick you.

Getting in and out quickly is always best, unless you're at one of those rare places which both has a beatable game and they are clueless about card counters.

[kewlJ]

Biggest problem with a slow BJ game is that it gives them more time to notice what you're doing and kick you.

Getting in and out quickly is always best,

I am going to partially disagree based on my experiences. I used to think exactly what you just wrote. That was a good part of why I played the way I did my first 10-12 years in Vegas, sacrificing playing higher limits, for games at local type casinos that moved quicker. You get in , get to your max bet cycle and get out.

But playing as I now do, slower games but higher bets and spread, I have partially changed my take on it. YES, the game moves slower. No denying that. But so too doies the information collection process, what I call an evaluation, whether done by person or computer. This evaluation requires a certain number of rounds played, comparing betting to count or advantage of each round. So if the game is moving slower, the evaluation process is taking longer.

They really need to see a good number of rounds with minimum or smaller bet and then some rounds with the much larger bet. And even that isn't enough. Unless they are cutting corners they really need to see the player retreat back to a smaller wager at the shuffle (neutral deck). THIS is the key IMO. Don't give them that by exiting at the shuffle after showing max bet. It is kind of a bad feeling because the game is moving slow and you are sitting there feeling exposed, but it still takes the same number of rounds for a good evaluation, whether getting those rounds takes 20 minutes or 40.

And regardless of length of time to get those rounds, you should be able to exit before they have the information they need. Now this is all assuming you aren't playing at some rinky-dink casino where the evaluation process is some guy looking at 10 rounds and saying "yeah he is betting more now than 5 minutes ago". If that is the process (places like El Cortez or South point) then yeah you have problems.

Now having said all that, there is one specific situation that can be problematic. I like to think the entire process doesn't start until you have raised your bet substantially, someone notices and requests an evaluation. But lets say you are playing as I do now. You sit down at a crowded table, play for 45 minutes, maybe through 2-3 shoes and the count doesn't move much. Nothing has triggered an evaluation. No evaluation is started. So, then the count moves and you raise your bet. If this has triggered an evaluation, they can look back at past rounds and see all those rounds that you were minimum (your minimum, not the tables) betting. So they are sort of halfway home immediately. Now all they have to do is see you play some more rounds at the higher wager and then see you drop back at the shuffle, and they have the information and it will have taken a shorter time to get it.

BUT they still don't have the completed evaluation until you drop back to the smaller bet and I never show that. So you still should easily be able to exit before any heat. And I don't mean you are racing to the door 2 steps in front of security. You should have ample time to exit before any issue.

Bottom line it STILL takes a ceratin period to collect the info needed and that period is measured in rounds, NOT time. So you STILL should be good. You just feel a little more vulnerable that playing the "get in, get out" way. I mean it has been 4 years playing this way for me now (although only once or twice a week) and I am STILL uneasy at times, saying "come on, come on, lets go".

[accountinquestion]

Is the gaming rule you quoted not available online?

I thought you said it takes 40 minutes to do an evaluation and suggested it was only down in real time. Now you seem to agree they can go back near instantly.

[kewlJ]

Is the gaming rule you quoted not available online?

I thought you said it takes 40 minutes to do an evaluation and suggested it was only down in real time. Now you seem to agree they can go back near instantly.

What gambling rule? what are you talking about?

as far as 40 minutes, man you missed the jist of my post. The "time it takes for a complete evaluation is measured in rounds not actual time. A certain amount of information is needed and the information becomes available by seeing a certain number of rounds. Maybe that takes 30 minutes, maybe 45, maybe an hour. But how ever slow the game is isn't really hurting the player, because the collection process is equally slowed. It just feels like you are sitting there vulnerable. trust me, I KNOW.

[kewlJ]

AccountinQ, you have to decide what it is you want to be on this forum. One minute you say, you are just "playing" purposely for entertainment and don't really care about the answer to your questions, the next say something about a serious discussion.

If you just want to be a coach belly clone, then be a coach belly clone. And if you think that is fun then power to you. But expect to be treated like a coach belly nothing but troll. You can't have it both ways.

Frankly I think one coach belly is way more than enough.