Sharpshooter club

[RoeIncarnate]

Anyone in Freemonts sharpshooter club?

http://vitalvegas.com/craps-players-...remont-casino/

[Alan Mendelson]

Never been there and didn't know about the digital counter. Is there a boxman there to control it? Casinos that offer the All, Tall, Small bet need a boxman as each number rolled must be marked. Caesars dropped boxmen years ago to save money.

[FABismonte]

Never been there and didn't know about the digital counter. Is there a boxman there to control it? Casinos that offer the All, Tall, Small bet need a boxman as each number rolled must be marked. Caesars dropped boxmen years ago to save money.

I have never joined the Sharpshooter club but when I have played at Fremont, I recall there was a boxman there to press the numbers. Often no number were pressed until either many numbers were rolled, or the shooter complained. Then they pushed the counter to the estimated numbers. I recall the "prizes" were cheap casino swag (e.g. pens, mugs). While I liked the generally Hawaiian clientele at the Fremont craps table, I stopped playing there because it only had double odds on the passline -- the worst odds I could find in Las Vegas.

FAB

[Alan Mendelson]

I stopped playing there because it only had double odds on the passline -- the worst odds I could find in Las Vegas.

FAB

While the "worst odds" it is actually what the average player bets in craps. I know a lot of players crave casinos with 10x odds or even 100x odds when Casino Royale had it -- but the reality is the average craps player only bets double odds -- or sometimes single odds or no odds.

Besides, betting odds won't make you win. The odds you bet will not make the dice hit the number you need. The reality is higher odds are offered by casinos in an attempt to lure bigger bets. Since the casino is more likely to win that odds bet, the higher odds offered the more money the casino is likely to win.

I once met a high roller friend at Casino Royale who bet 100x odds -- and I watched him dump $25,000 in less than half an hour. Betting full odds doesn't make you win, sorry.

[RoeIncarnate]

The odds bet has no advantage to the house, (the house advantage is on the line) so in your lifetime it shouldn't matter how you play it.

However you have to have a bankroll to sustain it and few have the bankroll for 100x odds. You hit a bad set of rolls and bust out and the casino wins your money before you can get to the good rolls.

Personally I only play double odds, it is all I can afford. Doesn't matter if the table is 3,4,5 or 100x.

I guess that is how the take for a craps table can be 14-20% when the basic bets are 1.5% advantage. I guess prop bets help the casino there.

[Alan Mendelson]

The odds bet has no advantage to the house, (the house advantage is on the line) so in your lifetime it shouldn't matter how you play it.

I am sorry that you fell for this hook, line and sinker.

While there is no "house advantage" on the odds bet, there is also no "player advantage." But (and this is very important) the odds bet is linked to the passline bet and the house IS ALWAYS MORE LIKELY TO WIN THE PASSLINE BET. Therefore, the house is MORE LIKELY TO WIN THE ODDS BET even if the odds bet is paid with NO HOUSE ADVANTAGE.

The fact that the odds bet has no house advantage with the payoff does not mean you have an equal chance of winning it. In fact, you have less than an even chance of winning it.

[RoeIncarnate]

True, there is no "player advantage" either.

[dannyj]

Lately, I have been staying off the pass line at least until a shooter makes a point or when I shoot and am required to make a line bet. Instead, I just place the point for the total amount I would have bet on pass line with odds. Regardless of what the point number is the winning outcome is greater than winning with P.L. and odds.

For example:

Point of 4 or 10
$5 pass line with double odds = $15 outlay
Winning bet = $25 payoff

Placing the point for $15 = $15 outlay
Winning bet = $27

Down side is missing out on come out naturals, somewhat offset by also missing out on come out craps.

[Alan Mendelson]

Danny you recognize the fault in not making the passline bet, so why do you continue? If you are looking for the true best bet in craps it is the pass on the first roll, or the come bet on subsequent rolls.

[regnis]

Alan--I have to disagree with you that the true best bet in craps is pass or come. With respect to the house advantage (H-A), the H-A on a pass or come bet is 1.41%. The H-A if you place the 6 or 8 is only .46%.

Of course, you lower the H-A when you take odds on the pass or come as the H-A is leveraged down by the odds which have no H-A. So the more odds you take, the lower the H-A on the pass or come.

Now I have long taken Danny's position that you are better off placing the bet rather than betting pass or come, unless or until you start taking large odds. If you just take double odds, then as Danny says, the payoffs are the same or better by placing the bet.

For example:

$15 place on the nine will pay $21.
$5 pass with 10 odds on the 9 will pay 20.

Now, in Illinois-Indiana, we have 100x odds and I will use them if the game is good. So a $5 pass with 100 odds on the 9 will pay $155, while placing the 9 for 105 will pay 145. Now, the pass with odds is better.

The best strategy, in my opinion, is to start out placing until you are in a position to take large odds. Then, if the casino allows, use "put"bets rather than pass or come and leave them up when they hit. This way, you don't just get paid every other like you do with come bets.

There are other factors. One important one to consider is that many casinos do not count the odds bet when rating your play. In that case, it is far better to place your bets as the comps etc will be far greater. In my case, my initial bet is around $450 to $550. If 90% of that was from odds, my comps would be nothing at a casino where odds are not counted. However if that same amount is instead placed, I am now a hi roller. Big difference to consider.

[dannyj]

Danny you recognize the fault in not making the passline bet, so why do you continue? If you are looking for the true best bet in craps it is the pass on the first roll, or the come bet on subsequent rolls.

Alan,

I admit it hurts not being on the line when multiple (or any) naturals are made, but I'm not willing to cede that it is always better than bypassing and placing. I get the math, and do play the pass, just not as automatically as I used to.

[dannyj]

Alan--I have to disagree with you that the true best bet in craps is pass or come. With respect to the house advantage (H-A), the H-A on a pass or come bet is 1.41%. The H-A if you place the 6 or 8 is only .46%.

Of course, you lower the H-A when you take odds on the pass or come as the H-A is leveraged down by the odds which have no H-A. So the more odds you take, the lower the H-A on the pass or come.

Now I have long taken Danny's position that you are better off placing the bet rather than betting pass or come, unless or until you start taking large odds. If you just take double odds, then as Danny says, the payoffs are the same or better by placing the bet.

For example:

$15 place on the nine will pay $21.
$5 pass with 10 odds on the 9 will pay 20.

Now, in Illinois-Indiana, we have 100x odds and I will use them if the game is good. So a $5 pass with 100 odds on the 9 will pay $155, while placing the 9 for 105 will pay 145. Now, the pass with odds is better.

The best strategy, in my opinion, is to start out placing until you are in a position to take large odds. Then, if the casino allows, use "put"bets rather than pass or come and leave them up when they hit. This way, you don't just get paid every other like you do with come bets.

There are other factors. One important one to consider is that many casinos do not count the odds bet when rating your play. In that case, it is far better to place your bets as the comps etc will be far greater. In my case, my initial bet is around $450 to $550. If 90% of that was from odds, my comps would be nothing at a casino where odds are not counted. However if that same amount is instead placed, I am now a hi roller. Big difference to consider.

Thanks Regnis,

Did not know that about casinos not counting odds towards one's rating. I'm in Oregon and we have 5x odds. I always assumed they counted and will definitely inquire when we go Friday. If odds are not counted then the debate is a no brainer.

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan--I have to disagree with you that the true best bet in craps is pass or come. With respect to the house advantage (H-A), the H-A on a pass or come bet is 1.41%. The H-A if you place the 6 or 8 is only .46%.

Where did you get this from? Everything I see says the edge on the place 6 or 8 is 1.52%.

See for references:
http://casinogambling.about.com/od/o.../crapsedge.htm
http://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-edge/

One important one to consider is that many casinos do not count the odds bet when rating your play.

That used to be the case at Caesars Palace, but about two or three years ago they started including odds.

[regnis]

Alan-also from the Wizard, but I was looking at the per roll rather than the per resolution because it was phrased as "best bet" as if 1 roll.

http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/...ngtheHouseEdge

Just glad to see some craps players here. Now where are the horse players??

[Alan Mendelson]

On a per roll basis the passline bet is still better than placing the 6 or 8. On a per roll the HA on the passline is 0.42%

[dannyj]

There are other factors. One important one to consider is that many casinos do not count the odds bet when rating your play. In that case, it is far better to place your bets as the comps etc will be far greater. In my case, my initial bet is around $450 to $550. If 90% of that was from odds, my comps would be nothing at a casino where odds are not counted. However if that same amount is instead placed, I am now a hi roller. Big difference to consider.

Regnis,

I inquired the other night about the odds bet being counted towards my rating, and was told they do not. The boxman that I talked to (nice guy) not that far removed from being a dealer said he always gives me a "good" rating but that the odds dont count. The table was fairly busy and I could tell he didnt really want to talk to much about it.

Needless to say, I wasnt on the line very often.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dannyj which casino was this?

When I first started playing craps Caesars counted odds... then they stopped...
And now they count them again.

[regnis]

Danny--hope that isn't a Caesars property as that would indicate that they went back to not counting odds.

If they didn't count odds in Illinois, everyone would be a $5 better because we have 100 x odds at most places. In Vegas, with 3-4-5 x odds I still prefer place bets, and certainly if odds don't count.

Atlantic City Caesars I got mixed answers as to whether they count odds so I just placed.

[dannyj]

Dannyj which casino was this?

When I first started playing craps Caesars counted odds... then they stopped...
And now they count them again.

Alan,

The casino is Seven Feathers, in Canyonville Oregon, right off the I-5

[Alan Mendelson]

Hold it. I hope you guys are not using "comps" as your reason for betting odds. If you are doing that then you are playing for comps which is a cardinal sin. You bet odds when you think the shooter will hit the number AND THE COMPS DON'T MATTER.