There was so talk about this on another thread but I still didn't quite understand it all so thought I would ask the question here again within a new thread and see if anyone would have the answer:
Let's say your are playing a Game King Bartop Machine 1-2-5 BP and all 3 games are 8/5. Are all 3 levels within that BP game the very same program?
That's the take I got from Rob. Of course, it would be simple to just select the game at each level and see if all the last hands are the same.Originally Posted by vpguy
Ok then I understood it right then. Thanks.
The last hands will not be the same at each level. Each denomination of each game is independent.Originally Posted by slingshot
If you ever find a machine where the same hand appears on the same game at different denominations, please take photos.
I played some here at Boomtown a couple of years ago. I'll recheck but as I remember the 5 and 50 cents bp were the same and the 25/$1 were the same. I'll recheck on this. Main thing is: did I correctly interpret Rob? I don't wanna give wrong advice. Thanks.
I don't know what Rob said about this. But as you change games and change denominations, the cards do not change in the other games as you play one of the other games.
However, it is possible that this is the way it was "in the old days."
Remember that video poker technology has changed. In the beginning the first video poker games used "shadow cards" and that was later replaced with sequential dealing of replacement cards, and then the continuous shuffle of the replacement cards. So perhaps in the very first video poker machines the single RNG dealt the same cards to all games. I just don't know if that is what happened in the past.
But on current multi game, multi denomination machines, as you change games and change denominations you will not find the last hand you played showing up on the next game you choose.
OK. But are they in the same program if they have the same payout? I know Rob has instantly changed to a higher denomination when he saw a game appearing to be in a hot cycle.
Here we go again... I don't believe in hot cycles, or cold cycles. So we have come to a dead end.
Make up your own mind. But first, check the video poker machines you play on to see if the "hands" carry over from one game and one denomination to the next.
That might help you make up your mind.
edited to add:
If all of us, the next time we go to a casino, sit down at a multi-game and multi-denomination machine and find that the last hand on each of the games is different will that end the question of machines having hot and cold cycles and being able to detect those cycles??
Last edited by Alan Mendelson; 03-06-2012 at 10:45 PM.
OK. So I keep forgetting. I'll stay outta this.
I'm going to settle this once and for all... I have a pocket-sized video camera that I am going to take with me the next time I go into a casino and I am going to sit down at a multi game, multi denomination machine -- and with the video rolling I'm going to show the different games, the different denominations and the different cards showing. And then I am going to play one hand and run through the games. And then I am going to change the denominations. And then I'm going to put the full, unedited video online for everyone to see.
Will that end this fantasy talk??
If you're able to identify a hot streak! LOL>Sorry, I just could not resist.
So much nonsense ... so little time. It doesn't matter what's on the screen. That is simply a saved away history. Whenever a game or denomination is changed the RNG is reseeded. Hence, whatever had happened in the past is meaningless. If you changed denomination 1 millisecond later you will get different hands.
There is only one RNG, there is only one copy of a program for every game even if the pay table is different. All they have to do is have a small set of game/denomination specific data, probably in the form of a table, that gets switched when you make a change.
This is all simple programming, folks. Whatever you've heard from a dufus like Singer is just pure nonsense.
Thanks Arc. You explained it so well I dropped the idea of driving to a casino after work tonight to do the video. Yes there is only one RNG with a different program/table for each game and denomination.
I'm lost here. A single RNG with a different program is what I've always assumed. What was being argued as an alternative?
I wouldn't listen to arci on any of this. He's just rambling on about RNG theory again like he's an authority on vp machines--similar to how he knows more about vp than me and how he knows more about legal matters than redietz. It may be the same old story of him needing to have his postings validated by others who know very little along with him....or it could just be a case of too many Gablinger's in his home today.
BTW, this is the same foolishness you'd get from any punch-card era ex software engineer trying to look like he knows what it all looks like today. Here's where the supposed geniuses of yesteryear who still live in the past stub their toes over & over again when they make believe they know the modern world of technology but who really only see the exterior of the machines they blab about.
I had a machine from the latest generation of machines that I tested 5th card flipovers and cycles on for 3 months last year. Each game has its own RNG, which are very clear & visible on the motherboard. Arci claims a multi-game/multi denomination machine has only oneThis is silly but understandable from someone who's been out of touch with reality for so long. I can illustrate his confusion by explaining a concept he will think about some before coming on in his huff & puff mode to "try and set the record straight" so he'll feel better about how he's perceived on the Internet.
You're playing 7/5 25c BP. Your last hand is 22333. You switch over to dollars BP, which is 8/5. Another fallacy is that the "cards" are constantly shuffling. Not true by any stretch, and whomever started that lie probably only did so to sound smart to idiots. At idle, no numbers are shuffling. They only begin to shuffle when you press bet one credit or max bet. Because it's an analog process it lasts far longer than necessary for the digital shuffling component to shuffle the numbers thousands of times during the pushing function.
The RNG that produced 22333 on 7/5 BP has to stop in-between hands. If it kept running and were used also for 8/5 BP, the resulting hand that appears on the 8/5 screen would also replace the 22333 on the 7/5 screen, because each seeded number corresponds to an individual card in the RNG.
Questions?
You know Rob, if it is true that a multi game machine has multiple RNGs that would destroy your theory about a "hot machine." If you thought you had a hot machine with multiple RNGs and change games or denominations you would run the risk of moving to a new RNG that might be in a cold cycle.
Much of what you wrote above conflicts with what the gaming industry says. But this conflict probably comes under your classification of secret handshakes, lies, and misinformation. Well, for the record here's where you are the "industry" differ:
1. One RNG can control the whole machine. But if you think there are multiple RNGs it's OK with me. But if there are multiple RNGs Rob, then your hot/cold strategy goes out the window.
2. The RNGs are continually "shuffling" and selecting numbers and it's when you push the button that the selection process stops. The redraw cards are also continuously shuffled until the draw button stops on newer machines made in the last five years or so. There may be older machines still using the shadow card or sequential deal method.
3. The RNG is only "stopped" when the machine locks up for a handpay.
My question is about your "test machine." What is the manufacturer/brand of the machine you tested? Was it IGT or some other brand? When was it manufactured? You can buy IGT machines direct from IGT in Reno if you are a Nevada resident, and I think they also sell to residents of other states where the machines are legal. Here in California, privately owned machines must be at least 25 years old, so the best I could do is to buy one of the ancient shadow card machines.
Rob if your test machine has multiple RNGs please post a photo. Also gives us a photo of the manufacturer's plate on the machine so we know who made it, registration number, date of manufacture, etc. You might indeed have a machine with multiple RNGs and we'd all like to see it.
So Rob. You're in a hot cycle and the machine sends the correct combo when you press the play button. How can it be a programmed win when the numbers are shuffling? Thanks.
First Alan, hot cycles mean nothing to my play strategy because as soon as the big hand hits, I leave it. In other words, I really have no idea if it's in a hot cycle or not--and I don't care. Cold cycles--of which there are more of--are very implortant to be able to detect when playing for anyone, and few if any other than me know how to do it properly.
Now to your misinformation about the machine. When I'm playing and I run into a cold cycle, I switch machines. You're looking at it like all I need do is switch GAMES if there's a RNG for each game--which there is. But where have you ever heard of me simply switching games on the same machine? If I'm playing BP, that is the only game I will play.
Did you not read where I had the machine last year? And even if I took a pic of the board and posted it here, how in the world would you have any idea what you were looking at when a know-it-all like arci would be challenged to tell the difference between a capacitor and an EPROM?
I suspect you're running with the same Internet claims as everyone else who reads the same stuff on when the digitized numbers scrambler is operating and when it is not. I always also thought (and embarrassingly, explained it like I knew what I was talking about) until I saw when a machine's periods of activity and inactivity were as I ran the tests. When on, the scope remained linear unless and until the bet button was pushed. During the comparative enormous amount of time the mechanical/analog operation of the "push" actually takes, the scope lit up like a Christmas tree--meaning the scrambler was working at a rate of thousands of time per milliseconds. Not sure on that rate exactly but it is not millions. It then stops as you see the cards being displayed, then restarted the process as the draw button is hit. All that baloney you've read about how the newer machines supposedly keep shuffling whereas the older ones didn't, is pure conjecture by the authors. I'll bet NONE of them actually ever looked inside or tested anything period.
So, where did you get your misinformation from: arci?
Last edited by Rob.Singer; 03-07-2012 at 08:35 PM.
OK. I'm nowhere competent to go with you guys. All I know is that today while letting my wife play a little at 5/10/25 cent aart, I noticed during all the changes of denoms that a large of amount of the hands when drawing 1 or 2 cards were converting, some to full houses and my flushes were filling. I then left it at quarters and it was an up and down affair with multiple full houses saving the day. Finally, it ended when a hand w/4 to the straight flush materialized and hit. I was telling my wife to just be patient because the signs were good and it happened. I was expecting quads, but fortunately played slow enough to catch sight of the small straight flush.
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