Changing Games or Denominations on 1 Machine

[Alan Mendelson]

This discussion is getting to be very complicated. So I would like to see a couple of basic, even simple, questions answered with authority:

1. How many RNGs are there in a multi-game, multi-denomination machine.
2. Are cold cycles deliberately programmed into video poker, or do they just occur randomly?
3. Are random number generators random or are they designed not to be random?
4. Are games rigged so that certain cards do not have a fair, random chance of showing up?

I think answers to those questions really get to the heart of the discussion here.

[slingshot]

I haven't a clue-so you guys have at it. I doubt knowing the answer's gonna have any affect on my play.

[Rob.Singer]

I've only read this page because I'm short on time. All I'll add is that each game with different paytables for different denominations have separate programs, and each different game of course has a separate program. That's what I was talking about when I mentioned the eproms/RNG's populating the motherboard. Since I couldn't remove any of the components to test separately, I just called my contact at IGT for clarification but he isn't in house today.

I'll catch up on all this in a little over a week because we're headed to the LV airport in a few minutes for a week in Hawaii. My wife asked me to leave the computer, smart phone, and texting phone at home so we can just have a relaxing time together. Sounds good to me! And arci, we'll be sure to have a toast to you and your new resulting lifestyle up in retirement heaven, and we'll pray that your electricity doesn't go out at the most innopportune of times! P.S.: Would you like me to bring you back some poi, since you won't be going over to the islands any more....

[Alan Mendelson]

All I'll add is that each game with different paytables for different denominations have separate programs, and each different game of course has a separate program. That's what I was talking about when I mentioned the eproms/RNG's populating the motherboard.

Rob, this is what the rest of us were saying. There is one RNG that is used by several different programs in the computer. You were saying that there was a separate RNG for each game. Now we are on the same page. I think the confusion was the use of the term "RNG."

There is one RNG which chooses numbers (cards) and then the chosen numbers/cards are applied to the various game programs in the machine.

Now, with that resolved, how does this (one RNG) effect your other theories?

[slingshot]

I'm only gonna say that he said rng's> PLURAL.

[Alan Mendelson]

So slingshot, if it turns out there is only ONE RNG in a video poker machine, what happens to your belief in Rob's method?

[slingshot]

All I can say is that it's worked for me. Today at Horseshoe I found a BP 25 credit machine and the hands started hitting on one machine instead of giving me the usual once-in -a -while hits. I bumped it from 5 credits to 25 and hit four 4's for $200. I mean I actually WATCH these things happening, Alan. And I'm not saying I can play as well as Rob, either. I'm just learning. And I have to be careful and make sure there's several indicators or I get fooled by an occasional full house or flush. Yes, I may be gullible but I'm willing to give a reasonable effort with the small bankroll I have. Maybe I'm lucky=I've hit well over 20 royals at quarters in the past. Which brings another point: it's been over 6 months since my last one. I've set for hours reading and re-reading his articles in the past and all I can say is that it just MAKES SENSE.

[Alan Mendelson]

Slingshot, does it also make sense that you're just playing a random game? And you are having random results?

Do you honestly believe in the concept of "cold cycles" that are predetermined? We all know there are cold cycles-- but do you believe that they are created by design?

THAT is the key question.

[arcimede$]

This discussion is getting to be very complicated. So I would like to see a couple of basic, even simple, questions answered with authority:

1. How many RNGs are there in a multi-game, multi-denomination machine.
2. Are cold cycles deliberately programmed into video poker, or do they just occur randomly?
3. Are random number generators random or are they designed not to be random?
4. Are games rigged so that certain cards do not have a fair, random chance of showing up?

I think answers to those questions really get to the heart of the discussion here.

1. 1 ... on older machines it's possible they may have separate chips for each game (since chips were produced for single game machines it would have been a simple way to build multi-game machines) but it's the exact same RNG code/algorithm on all of them. Since they are all reseeded when a new game is started the result would be the same with 1 or multiple. Changing programs/denominations will cause a reseeding of the RNG. So, even silly claims like hot/cold cycles is preempted by this action.

2. No, every player will experience hold/cold streaks. It's part of randomness. Machines are not hot/cold ... players are.

3. Random, they are simple numerical algorithms where a unique number is generated on each call to the program. That number is used to select the next card. The RNG runs continuously on machines. So, numbers are generated and discarded thousands of times every second. It's only when deal/draw is pressed that the numbers are used to select cards. This adds an extra layer of uncertainty. Singer's nonsense about programmed hot/cold cycles is beyond silly. Only a dufus would make such an irrational claim.

4. No, all machines are test by the NGC to assure every card has an equal chance of appearing. The NGC also acquires copies of all the game code and reviews it assure there's no secondary programming. Only a dufus would spew the nonsense that comes from Singer when all of this is checked and double checked.

[Alan Mendelson]

Arc, I agree with everything you just posted, except the use of the word "dufus." But it's nice to know that we're close.

For the record, Rob claims he was "testing" and examined the newest model IGT machine. However, I think he will now recognize the error about multiple RNGs and that in fact, there is only one RNG that is used by various different programs on a multi game, multi denomination machine. I also agree that perhaps in the distant past multiple RNGs were used to create multi game machines. And as I noted earlier, there have been a lot of technological improvements in gaming including the move from shadow cards to sequential dealing to continuous shuffle.

I am hoping to get a comment from IGT; I sent an inquiry to their media relations department.

What I am really curious about now is if having just one RNG on a multi game, multi denomination machine helps or hurts Rob's theory about hot/cold cycles? As I wrote before, if there were multiple RNGs in a machine it would be impossible to support the theory of hot cold cycles because changing game or denomination might mean moving to a different RNG that is in a cold cycle.

However, in all fairness to Rob, his belief is that there is one RNG per game that covers all denominations for that game, so he contends that if the RNG for Bonus, for example, is no longer cold or is now hot, he can move up to the next Bonus denomination.

Look, I don't agree with this whole idea about hot/cold cycles, and I certainly reject the idea that these cycles are programmed in and the games are rigged with "5th card flipovers" but I think the theory should be openly discussed. We will never learn about the good ideas or the bad ideas if we don't have a full and open discussion about them.

[redietz]

I have no qualms with what arci said except for his selective editing. The NGC tests each machine approximately once every 18 months if they are on schedule, which they never are. And if their testing schedule is leaked, the entire testing procedure is pretty much worthless. For the testing procedure to not be leaked requires that each individual screener be unimpeachable. This is where theory and the realities of existence part company, for me, in terms of "all machines being random." And, obviously, not every RNG operates properly forever on its own. Have you ever read a report listing the faulty RNGs that had been discovered anywhere in Las Vegas over the last 20 years? I didn't think so. Obviously there have been some, but this does not become public knowledge.

[slingshot]

So then maybe there was some merit to the way I was playing INCORRECTLY as far as the artt system was concerned. Maybe the video poker machines ARE closer to slots than most say. For instance I was having just as good as luck as any other system by only playing a 100 ACTUAL credits on bp and a 100 on advanced bp games. In other words a very short-term playing time. I still had the option to come back to the same machine later on my tour around the various machines. I had two instances of doing this. On one occasion I came back to a particular machine and it did NOTHING all day (4 hrs.) On another, I came back after an hour and it was like a pinball machine- spitting out 3 quads. It was my going home session. I have yet to understand why at a particular time of the day, the action all of a sudden appears for the casino floor and about an hour later goes just as quickly.

[Alan Mendelson]

I have no qualms with what arci said except for his selective editing. The NGC tests each machine approximately once every 18 months if they are on schedule, which they never are. And if their testing schedule is leaked, the entire testing procedure is pretty much worthless. For the testing procedure to not be leaked requires that each individual screener be unimpeachable. This is where theory and the realities of existence part company, for me, in terms of "all machines being random." And, obviously, not every RNG operates properly forever on its own. Have you ever read a report listing the faulty RNGs that had been discovered anywhere in Las Vegas over the last 20 years? I didn't think so. Obviously there have been some, but this does not become public knowledge.

But you are talking about the exception rather than the rule. Sure, there are going to be malfunctioning machines and there are going to be rogue dealers, and rogue slot technicians -- just as there are some bad lawyers, bad doctors, bad cashiers, bad food service workers.

But what we are talking about here is an indictment of the whole industry. So what I want to know is -- is the industry tainted? Rob has alleged there are secret backroom deals that allow the slot makers to rig and alter the machines. If so, none of us should risk playing -- ever.

[Alan Mendelson]

So then maybe there was some merit to the way I was playing INCORRECTLY as far as the artt system was concerned. Maybe the video poker machines ARE closer to slots than most say. For instance I was having just as good as luck as any other system by only playing a 100 ACTUAL credits on bp and a 100 on advanced bp games. In other words a very short-term playing time. I still had the option to come back to the same machine later on my tour around the various machines. I had two instances of doing this. On one occasion I came back to a particular machine and it did NOTHING all day (4 hrs.) On another, I came back after an hour and it was like a pinball machine- spitting out 3 quads. It was my going home session. I have yet to understand why at a particular time of the day, the action all of a sudden appears for the casino floor and about an hour later goes just as quickly.

What you are describing appears to me to be nothing more than random results.

Now, if you tell me you are hitting the quads after tapping on the screen three times and chanting "Rob Is My Master" then I would suggest you might have something to look into.

[arcimede$]

The reason machines can never be hot/cold in and of themselves is due to the way the RNG runs. If each card were selected and the RNG was idle until the next card was needed, then you could have a hot/cold machines. However, since the RNG runs continuously and may run through as many as 100,000 numbers every second, it's easy to see why the RNG could not be responsible. A player is only sampling at most 10 cards/numbers. That's .01% of the possible ones if you played one hand every second. It probably much less.

All inherent hold/cold streaks within the RNG itself are completely lost to a player. The player only sees cards based on his own timing. That's why the player is hot/cold and not the machine. It's also why no two players would ever see the same results on any particular machine.

[Alan Mendelson]

The reason machines can never be hot/cold in and of themselves is due to the way the RNG runs. If each card were selected and the RNG was idle until the next card was needed, then you could have a hot/cold machines. However, since the RNG runs continuously and may run through as many as 100,000 numbers every second, it's easy to see why the RNG could not be responsible. A player is only sampling at most 10 cards/numbers. That's .01% of the possible ones if you played one hand every second. It probably much less.

All inherent hold/cold streaks within the RNG itself are completely lost to a player. The player only sees cards based on his own timing. That's why the player is hot/cold and not the machine. It's also why no two players would ever see the same results on any particular machine.

Arc, a very good explanation. But rather than say "the player is hot/cold" I think it would be better to say the player is lucky or not lucky that he pushed the button at the right time.

[redietz]

I'm talking about the exception, but that exception can flip the supposed advantage completely around and result in an advantage player playing at a disadvantage if he is heavily playing those particular machines. Why do I think this can happen? I have a pretty good idea under which conditions clever slot managers would "rogue" a machine -- and those conditions would more or less target high rollers who presume they are advantage playing.

[arcimede$]

One problem. Slot managers aren't programmers, they aren't even technicians. They would need the cooperation of more people than they would feel comfortable trusting. All it wold take is one to "out" the guy and his career would be over. He'd also face jail time.

Now, really, how many slot managers would take a risk like that? It wouldn't even be money in their pocket.

[Alan Mendelson]

Arc, let me play devil's advocate: why would a slot tech know that he is installing an altered chip into a machine? And why would a slot manager question a package of new chips that were sent to him from his boss's office? I guess we could play "conspiracy theory" all day with this. Personally, I think casinos make enough money off legitimate video poker machines that they don't have to rig any of them.

redietz, let me play devil's advocate with you, too: just what machines would the slot manager's rig? Are you saying they would rig "High Roller Martha's $10 Machine" -- the second from the left on row #2 -- because that's the one she sits at? Does expert player Martha play at that one single machine exclusively and enough of the time that it justifies the trouble and risk of pulling off this hanky panky?

In late 2011 Rob advised me to stop playing with my player's card at Rincon in case they were rigging the machine and my player's card tipped them off. Well, in January when I hit that royal my player's card was in the machine. It was also in the machine when I turned $300 of free play into $6,200.

I would rather believe in a few faulty machines or faulty RNGs rather than believe in some widespread conspiracy. In fact, I can easily believe that there are a few faulty machines or faulty RNGs because that is very very possible. It's the widespread conspiracy someone is going to have to prove to me.

[slingshot]

What you are describing appears to me to be nothing more than random results.

Now, if you tell me you are hitting the quads after tapping on the screen three times and chanting "Rob Is My Master" then I would suggest you might have something to look into.

That's totally unfair. I understand I don't have the technical knowledge, I was only thinking out loud. I will stay outta this as I'm not a techy.