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Thread: When 7/5 Bonus Poker is BETTER than 8/5 Bonus Poker.

  1. #21
    RS___ and jbjb then it seems to me that you and the others should not be concerned with this thread. Thanks.

    And regarding that quote from the Wizard... it was clearly one of his low points. Yes, I can't get past a die having six sides.

  2. #22
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    7 stars, noir, etc., can't pay the bills.
    I think this will start an interesting discussion.

  3. #23
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    RS___ and jbjb then it seems to me that you and the others should not be concerned with this thread. Thanks.

    And regarding that quote from the Wizard... it was clearly one of his low points. Yes, I can't get past a die having six sides.
    I clearly understand where you're coming from about the actual cost of "getting there."

  4. #24
    Getting back to the thread:

    That extra $75,000 of coin-in on the 8/5 Bonus Game to reach the same number of tier points, if played on the 7/5 Bonus game would be an extra $75 comp dollars.

    While that would not offset the additional expected loss of the 7/5 game it shows that play on the 8/5 game with $25 per point also reduces Reward Credits.

  5. #25
    What aboutot the $1 full pay Pick em poker Windsor has? That's 99.95% but requires $80 per tier point. Also this is in Canadian dollars.

  6. #26
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    What aboutot the $1 full pay Pick em poker Windsor has? That's 99.95% but requires $80 per tier point. Also this is in Canadian dollars.
    I don't think anyone has ever advocated playing that game to reach 7 Stars.

  7. #27
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    I don't think anyone has ever advocated playing that game to reach 7 Stars.
    No-one should advocate playing any game to reach 7 stars. But we're talking about doing it as cheap as possible. I was just curious as to the cost and then converted into U.S. dollars.

  8. #28
    $80 per tier point kills it. Isn't that $4 - million coin-in in US, Canadian or whatever?

  9. #29
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    $80 per tier point kills it. Isn't that $4 - million coin-in in US, Canadian or whatever?
    If that's the case, 4,000,000 x .9995 = 3,998,000 for a cost of $2000 Canadian ($1580 U.S.). Also winnings there aren't taxed if you happen to hit the very rare royal. Obviously it'll take longer, but pick em is much faster than draw poker.

    Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting anyone go out and achieve this. Just discussing the economics of doing it.

  10. #30
    For me it's not an option for several reasons including travel and I never played the game, though it sounds attractive. Rincon used to have full pay Super Aces Bonus which I think also paid what Pick'em paid... but then the table was downgraded.

  11. #31
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    For me it's not an option for several reasons including travel and I never played the game, though it sounds attractive. Rincon used to have full pay Super Aces Bonus which I think also paid what Pick'em paid... but then the table was downgraded.
    Certainly wouldn't expect anyone from the west coast to fly there specifically for that. But for players in that area, it's probably the best option. Especially regular players of the game.

  12. #32
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    Umm....wtf? I didn't go on some quest to become 7 *....so obviously there was no plan for it.


    Alan, you speak about APs as if you were an AP....but you really have no idea about advantage play. I like seeing your quote of Wiz in your signature -- it's a quick reminder that you usually don't know what you're talking about, especially when it comes to anything AP related.
    This pot of gold....from a player of ultra-experience in gaming who swears by an "AP" forum owner (Does "I'd rather make a GOOD bet than a WINNING bet" ring a bell?) who had to publicly beg members for cash. RS__....the gift that keeps on giving.

  13. #33
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Getting back to the thread:

    That extra $75,000 of coin-in on the 8/5 Bonus Game to reach the same number of tier points, if played on the 7/5 Bonus game would be an extra $75 comp dollars.

    While that would not offset the additional expected loss of the 7/5 game it shows that play on the 8/5 game with $25 per point also reduces Reward Credits.
    Alan: Wait a second! You get $1 in comps for every $1,000 coin-in? You made a mistake saying you need an extra $75,000 coin-in with 8/5 BP...you actually need an extra $750,000 coin-in. $500,000 for 7/5 and $1.25 million for 8/5.

    So does this imply an extra $750 in comps, which negates the original $375 in savings for 7/5 BP and swings it $375 back in favor of 8/5 BP again??

    Help me clarify, thanks!

  14. #34
    I could be wrong, but I believe the donation were to keep the site up and running. Not for personal profit. No matter, he or the new owners should start a separate paid for only section like Blackjacktheforum.com does.

  15. #35
    Originally Posted by Count Room View Post
    Alan: Wait a second! You get $1 in comps for every $1,000 coin-in? You made a mistake saying you need an extra $75,000 coin-in with 8/5 BP...you actually need an extra $750,000 coin-in. $500,000 for 7/5 and $1.25 million for 8/5.

    So does this imply an extra $750 in comps, which negates the original $375 in savings for 7/5 BP and swings it $375 back in favor of 8/5 BP again??

    Help me clarify, thanks!
    Yep, my error. I get mixed up with big numbers. The original math in the original post was done with the help of forum member John. I would never trust myself to get it right. LOL

  16. #36
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    I could be wrong, but I believe the donation were to keep the site up and running. Not for personal profit. No matter, he or the new owners should start a separate paid for only section like Blackjacktheforum.com does.
    I agree. The websites were losing money and he couldn't support them on his own. Frankly, that surprised me. How much money did he need for his websites?

    My main website www.alanbestbuys.com costs me EXACTLY $142.65 a year to operate which is what I pay my hosting company BOTH for hosting the site and for the software to run it. I post and maintain all of the content myself -- all 400+ pages of content including hundreds of videos.

    This forum runs on free software but I do pay a hosting company $400 per year to host the forum and to maintain the software and operations.

    Altogether my expenses are $542.65 and it's no secret that I have Google Adsense ads on my main website pages. I don't get rich from the ads but the ads do generate about $300 to $400 a month in income. So yes, my main website generates a modest profit. This forum, on the other hand, does not.

    So why exactly did the Wizard need those donations for his websites? When I read about him asking for donations I suggested that he run Google ads on his sites -- but he didn't for reasons I don't know.

  17. #37
    Originally Posted by jbjb View Post
    I could be wrong, but I believe the donation were to keep the site up and running. Not for personal profit. No matter, he or the new owners should start a separate paid for only section like Blackjacktheforum.com does.
    He needed the money because he was going broke, personally and otherwise. Remember he said he couldn't sleep at night at all because of his money woes? A stupid website wouldn't do that to someone like him. He was worried because he has a family to support. It all trickles down to that. Always.

  18. #38
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    He needed the money because he was going broke, personally and otherwise. Remember he said he couldn't sleep at night at all because of his money woes? A stupid website wouldn't do that to someone like him. He was worried because he has a family to support. It all trickles down to that. Always.
    I'm sure having a shit ton of money stolen from a foreign bank account didn't help. And in no way am I defending or admonishing his decision.

  19. #39
    Ugh... Alan, can I select "NONE OF THE ABOVE"???

    Your premise is flawed because nobody simply shooting to earn Seven Stars (as I was earlier this year) would ever play EITHER 8/5 BP for $25/tier or 7/5 BP for $10/tier. Both are horrendous choices, with huge variance and high expected losses.

    In short: It's not worth it.

    If you playing VP for fun and/or the hopes of winning money, you should forget about tier points and just concentrate finding on the best paytables.

    If you are playing VP to earn Seven Stars, you need to be willing to travel to Rincon, Tahoe, or New Orleans, and play the full pay $10/tier machines there. Or play that Ultimate X machine with a high return at Flamingo (I think) which still returns well over 99% and is 10%/tier.

    But never, never, never try to earn Seven Stars at an 8/5 at $25/tier or 7/5 at $10/tier.

    Here are two other myths I would like to dispel:

    1) "You cannot be an advantage player if you are intentionally playing losing games simply to earn Seven Stars." FALSE! If you can derive more out of the Seven Stars benefits than your average expected loss, then yes, you are an advantage player.

    2) "Playing 7/5 bonus may not be that bad, because it will earn you a lot of extra freeplay for your higher theoretical loss." Mostly FALSE! Believe it or not, CET is not computing theoretical properly, and you get far more credit for your theoretical loss at 99%+ machines than you should. I am not even sure you get ANY additional credit for playing machines with bad paytables like 7/5, but even if you do, the difference in your offers is likely to be negligible. This is because CET is now very frugal with offers, and is more concentrating upon your regular coin-in than trips where you run a ton of play and then don't play again for awhile. Even for regular players, comps have really dried up for VP players.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  20. #40
    Dan, no one said you had to play Bonus at either 8/5 or 7/5 to work towards 7 Stars. I was just pointing out something that a lot of people might not realize. I happen to play Bonus almost exclusively because it gives me a chance to win some nice pots as opposed to Jacks or Better which makes you want to hit your head against the wall when you hit certain quads like AAAA.

    Yes, I agree with this statement you made:

    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post

    1) "You cannot be an advantage player if you are intentionally playing losing games simply to earn Seven Stars." FALSE! If you can derive more out of the Seven Stars benefits than your average expected loss, then yes, you are an advantage player.
    But who said this?

    Originally Posted by Dan Druff View Post
    2) "Playing 7/5 bonus may not be that bad, because it will earn you a lot of extra freeplay for your higher theoretical loss." Mostly FALSE! Believe it or not, CET is not computing theoretical properly, and you get far more credit for your theoretical loss at 99%+ machines than you should. I am not even sure you get ANY additional credit for playing machines with bad paytables like 7/5, but even if you do, the difference in your offers is likely to be negligible. This is because CET is now very frugal with offers, and is more concentrating upon your regular coin-in than trips where you run a ton of play and then don't play again for awhile. Even for regular players, comps have really dried up for VP players.
    And while VP promos and comps have been cut, if there are extra comps given they are going to go to the players who play the games with the bigger house edge. I found that out as soon as I switched from playing DDB to Bonus/Aces and Faces at Rincon. My weekly offers tumbled from as much as $800 to where they are now at about $80.

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