Tipping on hand pays at high limit VP

[coach belly]

You parsed jbjb's statement leaving out this part right here "and to play the game sub-optimally while betting more while losing."

So what?...the thread is about tipping, so that's what I'm asking about...the tipping part.

[jbjb]

You didn't say one way or the other, but you wrote this...



...and I'm wondering about your conclusion...that the reason Rob doesn't want us to tip is because he wants us to lose.

Can you explain what you mean?

The more cash you have to play sub-optimally like he does, the more you'll lose. By tipping, you'll have less of this cash for the casino to get.

Whether you tip casino personnel or not is up to you.

[jbjb]

For the record, I'm not a fan of tipping either. But I don't see a difference between a waitress carrying your food to you and a slot attendant carrying your cash to you.

[coach belly]

The more cash you have to play sub-optimally like he does, the more you'll lose. By tipping, you'll have less of this cash for the casino to get.

I think got it...you think Rob doesn't want us to tip, because he would rather have us lose the money in the machines than give it away as a tip.

Is that what you mean?...and is that what you really believe?

[Rob.Singer]

For the record, I'm not a fan of tipping either. But I don't see a difference between a waitress carrying your food to you and a slot attendant carrying your cash to you.

Here's the difference: as a restaurant customer, you're REQUESTING a certain service be performed by the employee. As a casino customer who hits a handpay, you're not requesting a service of any kind, but it is in fact only a government requirement that your play be held up in order that the employees fulfill their duty to give you the required paperwork and the money you won from gambling.

In this situation, the player never asks for any service of any kind, but it is a govt and casino requirement that the service be provided--much like if you're at home cooking dinner and your house suddenly catches fire. The firemen show up out of dutiful requirement, and they are never tipped.

[Rob.Singer]

Jean Scott tips $20 on a $4000 royal. Bob Dancer tips $20 on a $20,000 royal. He only tips $5 on quad handpays. He has the tip expectation calculated into his EV on the play.

There you go again. You have no idea how much and even if any of those people tip, and when.

I was talking to Jean Scott while she and "Brad" we're playing at the Hard Rock. Brad hit four Aces with the kicker on a $1 machine while I yakked with Jean. He tipped $60 after asking "the Queen" how much he should tip. This should explain how the rest of your story similarly is the same BS as most of your stuff.

Is it really any wonder why, out of over 11,000 members on vpfree, that you get one or two replies to your stupid made-up tales....and just about everyone laughs at you whenever you post in the middle of one of your many binge-drinking alcoholic posts?

[mickeycrimm]

There you go again. You have no idea how much and even if any of those people tip, and when.

I was talking to Jean Scott while she and "Brad" we're playing at the Hard Rock. Brad hit four Aces with the kicker on a $1 machine while I yakked with Jean. He tipped $60 after asking "the Queen" how much he should tip. This should explain how the rest of your story similarly is the same BS as most of your stuff.

Is it really any wonder why, out of over 11,000 members on vpfree, that you get one or two replies to your stupid made-up tales....and just about everyone laughs at you whenever you post in the middle of one of your many binge-drinking alcoholic posts?

There you go again. On speaking terms with Jean Scott are you? After the way you have repeatedly trashed her she's your howdy doody friend? Wise up and get real, dingbat.

[dannyj]

2) Rob looks down on anyone in any kind of service industry who rely on tips to make a living.

A couple of points; and I'm not here to defend Rob (nor does he need me to).

1) In regards to "looks down on anyone in any kind of service industry", I don't think I have ever read Rob say he doesn't tip wait or bar staff for service.

2) Do slot attendants "rely on tips to make a living"?

[Dan Druff]

A few options, depending on the casino:

A] Key to credit, some places will just have a slot attendant key the machine, leave credits on the machine, and add up the JP amounts so that at the end of your session you get one big W2G. Then you can tip whatever you want to at the end. It also makes it quicker when you play because don't have to wait on getting hand pays.

B] Some places, like MGM and Cosmopolitan, have a system where you don't even need a slot attendant to key the machine. When you hit a JP, a thing shows up on screen, you type in your pin and whatnot, then the machine gets unlocked. They'll mail you a copy of W2G's, or you can pick them up at end of your session/day/trip.


Other than that, not really sure. Other than just tipping at the end of the session......or perhaps don't tip for small jackpots but tip larger for bigger JP's.

I've never heard of this before. Do any Caesars properties do this? How do you get it? You just ask the slot attendant?

I personally hate handpays for various reasons. I hate stopping for them. I hate the tax forms. I hate having to re-feed money into the machine if I run poorly after hitting the jackpot. I hate how it brings attention to me so the beggars hit me up for money. I hate the expectation to tip. I would love it if I could just eliminate hand pays completely and do it all at the end.

The irritating thing with tipping handpays is figuring out the amount to tip. I absolutely despite the situation where I tip and the slot attendant walks away angrily like I just insulted them. I assume this happens at places where people routinely over-tip. So that just makes me want to not tip at all, because if I'm going to get the insulted storm-off, I might as well get that for free and not pay for it!

Still, regardless of what these slot attendants think is customary, I never give more than $10, and sometimes I give $5. The biggest handpay I've gotten was $4000, and I gave $10. The one thing I dread about one day hitting a $20,000 handpay (royal at $5 VP) is the expectation they probably have that I'll tip $100, which there's no way I will do.

[Dan Druff]

And I mostly agree with Rob that tipping handpays is a ridiculous practice. I do it, but I hate doing it. They're only giving you this "service" because the government requires them to.

[coach belly]

And I mostly agree with Rob that tipping handpays is a ridiculous practice. They're only giving you this "service" because the government requires them to.

Has it been confirmed that the government requires the handpay?...or is the W2G only what's required?

If the handpay is required, then how can the practices described below legally exist?

A few options, depending on the casino:

A] Key to credit, some places will just have a slot attendant key the machine, leave credits on the machine, and add up the JP amounts so that at the end of your session you get one big W2G. Then you can tip whatever you want to at the end. It also makes it quicker when you play because don't have to wait on getting hand pays.

B] Some places, like MGM and Cosmopolitan, have a system where you don't even need a slot attendant to key the machine. When you hit a JP, a thing shows up on screen, you type in your pin and whatnot, then the machine gets unlocked. They'll mail you a copy of W2G's, or you can pick them up at end of your session/day/trip.

[Rob.Singer]

I have to agree here.

When Rob trolls me, or trolls others, at least it's clear that we are strangers to him, and there's no expectation of kindness.

But I see him say some absolutely nasty and inappropriate stuff to Alan, which really surprises me.

I actually believe that Rob is probably a nice guy in person, but this online side of him can get really ugly, and his treatment of Alan is the most baffling to me.

You're not on the same page here. There's some things I get after Alan for and it's for real, because I believe he's able to get it. He and anyone else are always free to disagree--he almost always does--(and when it comes to pointing out ANYONE'S weaknesses in gambling, who doesn't?) but I occasionally have to bring out the big guns in order to get the reactions I'm looking for from the idiots here. And I keep doing it because they're like the gifts that keep on giving.

Much of what you see as "inappropriate" is very appropriate to me. I'm no shy person, I tell it as I believe it to be, and I didn't get to the level I got to in my career by cowering to political correctness or worrying about what other people think or might say unless it's a lie.

Tell me this Dan: would you rather be friends with someone who puts on a nice-guy persona online, but is always nasty when you see him?

[Rob.Singer]

And I mostly agree with Rob that tipping handpays is a ridiculous practice. I do it, but I hate doing it. They're only giving you this "service" because the government requires them to.

If you don't like doing it, can you explain WHY you tip handpays, esp. since you give so little that you'll almost certainly be excoriated when they get far enough away from you and their bosses anyway.

[RS__]

I've never heard of this before. Do any Caesars properties do this? How do you get it? You just ask the slot attendant?

I personally hate handpays for various reasons. I hate stopping for them. I hate the tax forms. I hate having to re-feed money into the machine if I run poorly after hitting the jackpot. I hate how it brings attention to me so the beggars hit me up for money. I hate the expectation to tip. I would love it if I could just eliminate hand pays completely and do it all at the end.

The irritating thing with tipping handpays is figuring out the amount to tip. I absolutely despite the situation where I tip and the slot attendant walks away angrily like I just insulted them. I assume this happens at places where people routinely over-tip. So that just makes me want to not tip at all, because if I'm going to get the insulted storm-off, I might as well get that for free and not pay for it!

Still, regardless of what these slot attendants think is customary, I never give more than $10, and sometimes I give $5. The biggest handpay I've gotten was $4000, and I gave $10. The one thing I dread about one day hitting a $20,000 handpay (royal at $5 VP) is the expectation they probably have that I'll tip $100, which there's no way I will do.

I don't think Caesars had it. If they did, it'd be a shock to me. I've played in their HLR a good amount and never any mention of it. I once played next to a woman who was playing $25 10 play ($1,250/spin) and they were just doing key-to-credit for her. I'd expect if they had it, she would have had it. But I haven't played Caesars since probably middle of last year, so if they have it now, that's news to me. I probably won't be playing at Caesars until next year, maybe, as I'm already 7* for the rest of this year and a few months into next year.

At places that do have it, at least in the high limit room, the slot attendant would likely tell you about it when hitting a jackpot. But you can always ask if they have the system in place. You can also ask them to do key to credit, although I've only ever had a casino do it in the high limit room and not on the main floor....and generally they'll only do it if you're playing a machine that gets frequent handpays (like $5 denom DDB or higher).

[james40]

My normal game is $5 single-line VP, which makes tipping pretty straightforward - I do $10 on the straight flush, and $100 on the royal. Both of these combined probably happen 2-3 times a year.

But the other day I was playing .50 100-play, and after a few of hours of running hot, I had hit 10 handpays. I tipped on some, didn't tip on others (asked to be paid with a slot ticket), and in the end had tipped $100 total, which kind of seemed like a lot, in retrospect. If I expect to play this game regularly, that level of tipping would seriously cut into my EV.

I'm having trouble finding info on this anywhere else; can some of you VP whales chime in on what's expected/appropriate?

To get this thread back on track, I'm not a VP whale and I don't play in the high limit rooms but why do you think tipping is required on a hand pay? I've never tipped on a hand pay, I didn't even know it was a "thing" until I saw it on the gambling sites. Maybe they were pissed, but I never paid that much attention. I get whatever I get from them, say thank you and go back to my game. Servers on the floor yes, restaurants yes, valet yes, hand pays - no. I don't understand why you would want to tip. What do you get out of it? No tip to a beverage server and I may not see her again, but they are not going to slow down a hand pay, they want you back gambling as soon as possible. I'm not cheap, I tip well otherwise, just not sure why we started tipping people for doing the normal parts of their job?

[RS__]

No tip to a beverage server and I may not see her again, but they are not going to slow down a hand pay, they want you back gambling as soon as possible.

Why would a slot attendant (who makes no money off you) necessarily want you back gambling as soon as possible?

I don't know how much you play or in what kind of circumstance, but I've played in a promotion where there were other APs who were tipping nothing or very little (like $1-2 per JP). Everyone was hitting JP's very frequently, like 10 an hour. It got to the point where the slot attendants essentially stopped paying out the other APs unless there was some major downtime (of which there was very little). They'd process all of mine at once (2-3), come back to pay me and I'd have 2-3 more already going.

Question: If you're not going to tip someone for just doing part of their job, why do you tip in restaurants, valet, or waitresses? They're just doing their job, no?

[Dan Druff]

Question: If you're not going to tip someone for just doing part of their job, why do you tip in restaurants, valet, or waitresses? They're just doing their job, no?

Here's why I see it as different.

When you go to a restaurant, you are specifically going out to a place where people serve you your food. You could stay home and serve yourself.

When you park your car valet, again, someone is providing an optional service to you. (Yes, I realize some places are valet-only, but they are still providing the service.)

When the bellman carries your bags for you, again, this is something you could have done yourself.

I wish tipping didn't exist and these businesses just paid these employees a fair salary, but that's not the way US society works, and I've accepted that.

However, with gambling it's a bit different. The blackjack dealer isn't serving you. They're just doing a job which you are not allowed to do yourself. Furthermore, unless you're an AP, you're already playing with a mathematical disadvantage.

Still, tipping became commonplace when gamblers were "sharing their good luck" with the dealer, as if the dealer somehow influenced the cards dealt. Therefore, while I disagree with the concept of tipping dealers, I still do it (though within reason).

However, hand pays are a level beyond that. Most players do not want hand pays. They do not want tax forms every time they hit a hand or jackpot over $1200. They just want to keep gambling, and cash out when they're done. The hand pay is a nuisance, and it only exists because the government requires the W2-G forms to be generated. Therefore, tipping is especially ridiculous here. You are tipping someone for a "service" you don't even want, but is being forced upon you!

You might say, "Yeah, but slot attendants are working a service job, and you're expecting to tip for service."

But that's not even totally true. When your machine breaks down, freezes, gets jammed, etc, you call a slot attendant. They often put more work into fixing it than they do in giving you a handpay. Do you tip them? Probably not.

So why tip a handpay? Just because they are forcing you to take a cash payment on a big hit?

I also generally hate the concept of "sharing the wealth with the employees" when you might be losing overall. So when you're destroying the house and winning all kinds of money, I can see how the gambler can feel guilted into tipping. But if you hit a $1200 hand and are currently down $6k, it's obnoxious to be expected to share a portion of your "win" with employees. Similarly, if I'm at the blackjack table, and if I lose 9 out of 10 $300 hands, I'm not going to tip the dealer just because I win a $900 hand right after. I'm still down $1500 in the past 11 hands!

[Dan Druff]

As this thread has become cluttered with BS, I have moved a lot of posts (including one of my own) to a new thread: http://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sho...cusses-tipping

Please continue the fighting over there, if you wish.

[mickeycrimm]

A lot of professional blackjack players don't tip. I suspect it's because they are working to thin of an edge to tip the money off.

[james40]

Why would a slot attendant (who makes no money off you) necessarily want you back gambling as soon as possible?

I don't know how much you play or in what kind of circumstance, but I've played in a promotion where there were other APs who were tipping nothing or very little (like $1-2 per JP). Everyone was hitting JP's very frequently, like 10 an hour. It got to the point where the slot attendants essentially stopped paying out the other APs unless there was some major downtime (of which there was very little). They'd process all of mine at once (2-3), come back to pay me and I'd have 2-3 more already going.

Question: If you're not going to tip someone for just doing part of their job, why do you tip in restaurants, valet, or waitresses? They're just doing their job, no?

It's the casino that wants me back gambling as soon as possible. I'm expected to lose money in the long run and the faster I get back to pushing that button, the faster I'm going to lose it back. I'm not an AP and would probably use the hand pay as a natural break in my play anyway, so they can take their time.

I tip in restaurants mainly because I worked part time in a restaurant in college and I have a soft spot for what they do. I tip the valet because any time I see a guy sprinting across the pavement in the Vegas heat to pick up my car, I feel he deserves a couple of bucks. The cocktail waitress because it can be a long dry spell if you don't tip.

Where do you draw the line in tipping? The front desk clerk who checks you in? The person that takes away your drink and empties your ashtray? Slot tech? Cashier cage? Guy that cleans the bathroom?

I'm not in a casino to impress anyone, make friends with anyone, or to share my good fortune with anyone (unless they are willing to share my losses). The casino has one goal, to remove as much money from my wallet as possible. I want to minimize that leakage as much as possible, and I haven't found a reason to tip any of the floor people that want to come out and congratulate me on my hand pay. They sure don't come around when I'm losing.

To go back to the original question, if you think you are tipping too much, then you are tipping too much.