STRIP SHOOTING VERY BAD

[MisterV]

Murderers walk into a 7-Eleven and shoot the cashier to steal what's in the register.

Terrorists perch themselves in Mandalay Bay and shoot more than 500 people killing 58 of them. It doesn't matter what the political beliefs or religious beliefs of the mother fucker asswipe shithole is -- he's a fucking terrorist and he terrorized us. He should burn in hell.

Uh, no, you're wrong about him being a terrorist.

Let's go to the dictionary:

"ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/
noun
noun: terrorism

the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."


While you can be "terrorized" by a murder, the murderer need not be a terrorist.

The one thing that separates Paddock from your example of the 7-11 robber is the scope / magnitude of his slaughter.

Absent a political or ideological motive for the killings, the guy is a murderer, not a terrorist.

[OneHitWonder]

I have to say it's very interesting what's been posted in this thread.

The first known recorded word in any human language is "wheat", as in the price of it. I bet a similar word will end it all. What to expect of a world in which 99% or more is owned by 1%? Yeah, blame it on a handful of North Koreans, or the likes of Trump and his not-so-secret "buddy" Putin. But, the lowest common denominator of the human condition is the human condition. The rest of us all follow suit every day in every way. And we "love" it. Too bad that no one really loves each other.

[Alan Mendelson]

Murderers walk into a 7-Eleven and shoot the cashier to steal what's in the register.

Terrorists perch themselves in Mandalay Bay and shoot more than 500 people killing 58 of them. It doesn't matter what the political beliefs or religious beliefs of the mother fucker asswipe shithole is -- he's a fucking terrorist and he terrorized us. He should burn in hell.

Uh, no, you're wrong about him being a terrorist.

Let's go to the dictionary:

"ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/
noun
noun: terrorism

the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."


While you can be "terrorized" by a murder, the murderer need not be a terrorist.

The one thing that separates Paddock from your example of the 7-11 robber is the scope / magnitude of his slaughter.

Absent a political or ideological motive for the killings, the guy is a murderer, not a terrorist.

If you just watched the 5pm briefing the Sheriff said he doubted he did it alone.

Next... the links to others.

Not terrorism? Give it a week.

[MisterV]

Of course, as events unfold we will all be able to integrate new info into our analysis.

But assume he had help, most likely from his GF.

That does not make them "terrorists."

For that label to stick there needs to be a connection to a political aim to be furthered by their heinous acts.

Otherwise, they're mass murderers.

It will be interesting to see if she's charged: hell hath no fury like an incensed American Public when the prime target for payback is dead.

"Vengeance is mine," sayeth the lord.

[redietz]

Of course, as events unfold we will all be able to integrate new info into our analysis.

But assume he had help, most likely from his GF.

That does not make them "terrorists."

For that label to stick there needs to be a connection to a political aim to be furthered by their heinous acts.

Otherwise, they're mass murderers.

It will be interesting to see if she's charged: hell hath no fury like an incensed American Public when the prime target for payback is dead.

"Vengeance is mine," sayeth the lord.

I think debating this is somewhat silly as it's impossible to define "political." You can backfit arguments that make the act political. If the shooter decided he didn't like Las Vegas and wanted to damage it in some way, that's an explanation and that's political. If the conclusion is that he decided he didn't like country-western fans, that's political.

I mean, the act has political effects -- not as many people are going to go to Las Vegas, and the ones that do will always think of this as a possibility. You can believe outdoor music concerts in Las Vegas are going to have a lot of nervous people. Fewer will attend. That's a political effect.

[mickeycrimm]

I have to say it's very interesting what's been posted in this thread.

First there were comments that the shooter lost big and was taking revenge on the casinos.

Then there was a question about whether or not he was comped.

Then the revelation that he is part of the AP brotherhood.

Gosh, is this what's to be expected on a forum of Vegas gamblers?

Just saying.

This is the very first time I ever heard the phrase "AP brotherhood." Alan, you and the shooter both belong to the white brotherhood, right?

[MisterV]

I think debating this is somewhat silly as it's impossible to define "political." You can backfit arguments that make the act political.

9-11 was a terrorist act: the participants acted in furtherance of a political / religious belief: Islamic jihad.

Oklahoma city was political: the perpetrators were anti-U.S. government.

So far Paddock is not believed to have acted in furtherance of any stated political, ideological or religious cause.

Collateral, "political" effects such as you mention are not necessarily determinative in characterizing such a heinous act: it is the intent to attack individuals whom the terrorist considers perceived enemies / adversaries / non-believers that matters.

One thing cannot be overlooked: Paddock had a plan and he executed it masterfully, with no advance warning.

He succeeded in gaining infamy, if nothing else.

[Alan Mendelson]

This is copied from a similar debate on Facebook written by Suzie Dotan after someone named Martin said the shooter was not a terrorist:

Martin you are incorrect. One man goes into a convenience store with one intention: to take something that isn't his. Sometimes he resorts to murder. Or a man finds out his wife or girlfriend is cheating on him. So he resorts to murder. None of these acts are meant to terrorize an entire population. Just the people with whom he has contact. Now, you take the guy in Vegas. There was NOTHING PERSONAL in his actions. He laid plans for the highest body count. He tactically organized and carried out his plans for mass murder. His entire goal was to spread fear into the people of this country. He had nothing personal with any one person he killed. Didn't give a shit about them. Didn't want to take anything away from them except their lives, and our societal sense of well-being. He WAS a Terrorist. Not just an asshole.

[Alan Mendelson]

Please stop with dictionary definitions of terrorism and terrorist. Until a year ago "selfie" wasn't a dictionary word.

[pkspins]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/04/u...-gambling.html

Some detail about the gambling habits of the shooter, including quotes from Bob Dancer.

[MisterV]

Please stop with dictionary definitions of terrorism and terrorist. Until a year ago "selfie" wasn't a dictionary word.

I'll take that as your act of surrender.

Next: what's the difference between love and lust?

[Alan Mendelson]

No, it's not an act of surrender. But an AP can't be wrong, can he?

You know what else came out today: the Sheriff said he questioned whether the shooter acted alone. Not one reporter at the news conference questioned that. I heard it. And tonight other media including the LA Times have picked up on it.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-...004-story.html

He was not a lone wolf. If you were in law enforcement in Vegas, or a government leader in Vegas, or part of the Chamber of Commerce would you admit that there were others involved? You might AFTER they were all rounded up. But right now you want the public to think there is no more danger.

Still doubting ISIS?

[Alan Mendelson]

Not a terrorist? From the Chicago Tribune:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...003-story.html

[Alan Mendelson]

Not a terrorist? A lone wolf? From the LV Review Journal:

https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/...s-source-says/

[calwatch]

Interesting theory, probably one of the better ones I've read. The guy has simply had it with life and wants to take it out in the most dramatic way possible, content in the belief there is nothing afterwards. https://www.mediaite.com/online/a-th...in-the-future/

[james40]

Not a terrorist? From the Chicago Tribune:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...003-story.html

What difference does it make if he was/was not a terrorist.

Here's the body count for the last few years (leaving out the ones where less than 10 were killed)

Vegas 58 (so far)
Orlando 49
San Bernardino 14
Washington Navy Yard 12
Sandy Hook 27
Aurora CO 12
Fort Hood 13
Binghamton 14
Virginia Tech 32

That's just going back 8 years. Will anything change or is this an acceptable level of violence that we are comfortable living with?

[MisterV]

What difference does it make if he was/was not a terrorist.

Please, do you REALLY not grasp the significance of the question?

Obviously not.

OK, I'll lay it out for you.

Murder = one trick pony.

terrorism = an attack likely to be repeated by others of the same group.

To put it in perspective, if 9/11 involved only one deranged 64 year old American male with a some pilot training comandeering a jet and flying into the WTC our response would have been much different.

We wouldn't have wasted untold billions in Afghanistan and Iraq, for starters.

No Homeland Security.

No diminution of personal liberties in the face of perceived terrorist threat.

So yes, it makes all the difference in the world: we must measure our response to any attack based upon the perceived likelihood of its repeatability.

[Alan Mendelson]

Sorry MisterV. He was a terrorist. He terrorized a whole city if not a country. The FBI is involved, Homeland Security is involved and the whole country is worried sick.

And yes, the city of Las Vegas was in lockdown for hours after the attack. Roads were closed. Public buildings were closed. You couldn't get into a hospital to donate blood. The casinos were all in lockdown.

That wasn't a simple reaction to a murderer. It was what you do when you face a terrorist act.

[kewlJ]

If the conclusion is that he decided he didn't like country-western fans, that's political.

This does not appear to be the case. Local channel 13 news reported tonight that the shooter was staying on a high floor at the Ogden last week overlooking the Life is Beautiful Festival, which drew an even greater number of people to the downtown area. I think it is a pretty good bet that he had a similar intent, but for whatever reason, didn't follow through. The Ogden is private condos if I am not mistaken, so it will be interesting to learn more details of that.

Then the revelation that he is part of the AP brotherhood.

No, it's not an act of surrender. But an AP can't be wrong, can he?

Why on earth would you even consider tying this sick individual to Advantage Play or Advantage Players in any way. Whether or not he attempted to gamble with an advantage, has no more relevance than what sports team he may have been a fan of, or what breakfast cereal he liked. The guy was extremely mentally ill....PERIOD. That you would even attempt to tie him to AP, clearly shows...YET AGAIN... your contempt and hate for AP's. Do you even know how much contempt you have for advantage play and advantage players....that you show on a regular basis?

On a personal note...I am shaken to the core by this horrific event. I have a very deep love for Las Vegas and all things Las Vegas. I bleed neon. Although I have only lived here 8 years, I often say that the moment that I stepped off the plane during my first visit about 11 years ago, I immediately knew I was "home". It just took a couple year to make that official.

My younger brother was at this festival on Saturday night with a friend. Had he gone Sunday instead or in addition to Saturday and something happened to him, I don't think I could have lived with myself. For those that don't know, I was estranged from my family, my mother and younger brother for 13 years from the time I was 18 and my stepfather kicked me out of his house. My brother was young at the time and caught up in the middle of that situation. I missed seeing him and being a part of his life as he grew up.

Through social media, we reconnected when he was in high school and grew close as he attended college. After I moved to Vegas, he would spend his summer and holiday breaks with me here in Vegas and when he graduated college 3 years ago, he decided to relocate to Vegas and has lived with me ever since. My Mother, separated from my stepdad and relocated to Vegas a year later. She resides less than a mile from us, so if something had happened to my brother, as a result of my influence on him and his moving to Vegas, I could have never dealt with that. I thank god, that didn't occur.

And while my family was spared, I grieve for those that weren't. And for me personally, It has changed Vegas. It is a dark cloud I don't think will go away. The only silver lining is the pride I feel in the way the people of Vegas have responded and come together and the love they have shown. People waited in line 6-8 hours on Monday just to give blood at some locations.

[Alan Mendelson]

Sorry, kewlj, I guess this went over your head. I was remarking how the comments on this forum were in connection with his gambling activities... as if that was the most important thing.

On the other hand, maybe I should have just kept it simple: this asshole was not motivated by gambling or gambling debts or anything else. He was out to destroy and terrorize an entire city if not a country.

And regarding my comment to MisterV -- he is an AP so he must be right when he says this asshole was not a terrorist. Never mind that he shot more than 500 people killing 58, and then shot at the fuel tanks at the airport in an attempt to cause more death and destruction. No, he can't be a terrorist, because MisterV says he wasn't waving a flag. Again, how can I argue with someone like MisterV because APs are always right.