2018 start

[kewlJ]

I also recall jbjb not understanding freeplay. It was surprising to say the least.

Sure. I admit I was thinking it through the wrong way while playing it off on video roulette a certain way. But unlike you, I figured out where I was wrong and admitted so. I'm sure there are other things I don't know about as well.

Same with everyone here. It's laughable that people would make a big deal about something like that.

I too have been wondering why Alan thinks this is a big deal. So jbjb didn't know about it and has since learned about it. That's the way life works isn't it?

When I moved to Vegas, I had been supporting myself for half dozen years by AP play (blackjack). I didn't know squat about machine play...still don't know much and now I have supported myself for 14 years as an AP. Doesn't mean anything...excepted he learned...progressed.

I mean what do you think every AP knows everything about every method of AP play? Do you think the punter on a professional football teams, knows the defensive signals that are sent into the linebacker? Doesn't mean he isn't a professional football player.

[Alan Mendelson]

Again kewlj free play is such a vital element of +EV that an AP has to know it. Even table game players get free play.

[tableplay]

Sure. I admit I was thinking it through the wrong way while playing it off on video roulette a certain way. But unlike you, I figured out where I was wrong and admitted so. I'm sure there are other things I don't know about as well.

Same with everyone here. It's laughable that people would make a big deal about something like that.

I too have been wondering why Alan thinks this is a big deal. So jbjb didn't know about it and has since learned about it. That's the way life works isn't it?

When I moved to Vegas, I had been supporting myself for half dozen years by AP play (blackjack). I didn't know squat about machine play...still don't know much and now I have supported myself for 14 years as an AP. Doesn't mean anything...excepted he learned...progressed.

I mean what do you think every AP knows everything about every method of AP play? Do you think the punter on a professional football teams, knows the defensive signals that are sent into the linebacker? Doesn't mean he isn't a professional football player.

Exactly. For example I know next to nothing about the carnival games. I have heard they are exploitable and I would like to learn more about them.

[jbjb]

Some things, especially for an AP, are basic. I would think any AP would master free play because isn't free play an essential element of that +EV?

I use it strictly on video poker.

[jbjb]

Again kewlj free play is such a vital element of +EV that an AP has to know it. Even table game players get free play.

Table games coupons can be quite valuable. Unfortunately, we play unrated so we don't get incentives.

[coach belly]

I too have been wondering why Alan thinks this is a big deal. So jbjb didn't know about it and has since learned about it.

Exactly.

jbjb has always claimed to vulture machines.

How could he possibly not understand how freeplay works?

[coach belly]

Some things, especially for an AP, are basic. I would think any AP would master free play because isn't free play an essential element of that +EV?

I use it strictly on video poker.

You didn't understand how it worked on VP either.

Do you want me to pull the quotes?

[jbjb]

Some things, especially for an AP, are basic. I would think any AP would master free play because isn't free play an essential element of that +EV?

I use it strictly on video poker.

You didn't understand how it worked on VP either.

Do you want me to pull the quotes?

Works three ways:

1) Download credits from card to machine
2) Initiate a bet and get the bet returned while same amount deducted off players card (situation I was wrong about on roulette)
3) Coupon inserted into machine

I don't use free play on multipliers anymore.

[tableplay]

I use it strictly on video poker.

You didn't understand how it worked on VP either.

Do you want me to pull the quotes?

Works three ways:

1) Download credits from card to machine
2) Initiate a bet and get the bet returned while same amount deducted off players card (situation I was wrong about on roulette)
3) Coupon inserted into machine

I don't use free play on multipliers anymore.

Some casinos like Tamarack Junction (sister property to Silver Legacy) in Reno allow you to download free play without juicing it with a buck (or higher bill) - you just need to churn/bet the free play in order to withdraw it. Also you can accumulate comp points during the free play rundown there. Others are more stingy and are as you describe. One trick you can use is to find a low value TITO, like a penny, and stick it into the machine. Then you can download the free play without any usage of a federal reserve note.

[jbjb]

You didn't understand how it worked on VP either.

Do you want me to pull the quotes?

Works three ways:

1) Download credits from card to machine
2) Initiate a bet and get the bet returned while same amount deducted off players card (situation I was wrong about on roulette)
3) Coupon inserted into machine

I don't use free play on multipliers anymore.

Some casinos like Tamarack Junction (sister property to Silver Legacy) in Reno allow you to download free play without juicing it with a buck (or higher bill) - you just need to churn/bet the free play in order to withdraw it. Also you can accumulate comp points during the free play rundown there. Others are more stingy and are as you describe. One trick you can use is to find a low value TITO, like a penny, and stick it into the machine. Then you can download the free play without any usage of a federal reserve note.

That would be number one on my list. I hate that way.

[tableplay]

Works three ways:

1) Download credits from card to machine
2) Initiate a bet and get the bet returned while same amount deducted off players card (situation I was wrong about on roulette)
3) Coupon inserted into machine

I don't use free play on multipliers anymore.

Some casinos like Tamarack Junction (sister property to Silver Legacy) in Reno allow you to download free play without juicing it with a buck (or higher bill) - you just need to churn/bet the free play in order to withdraw it. Also you can accumulate comp points during the free play rundown there. Others are more stingy and are as you describe. One trick you can use is to find a low value TITO, like a penny, and stick it into the machine. Then you can download the free play without any usage of a federal reserve note.

That would be number one on my list. I hate that way.

I like it because I like accumulating comp points while using free play. To each their own.

[jbjb]

Some casinos like Tamarack Junction (sister property to Silver Legacy) in Reno allow you to download free play without juicing it with a buck (or higher bill) - you just need to churn/bet the free play in order to withdraw it. Also you can accumulate comp points during the free play rundown there. Others are more stingy and are as you describe. One trick you can use is to find a low value TITO, like a penny, and stick it into the machine. Then you can download the free play without any usage of a federal reserve note.

That would be number one on my list. I hate that way.

I like it because I like accumulating comp points while using free play. To each their own.

Well yeah, I would too if you get comps on it. I just hate counting down the hands.

[tableplay]

That would be number one on my list. I hate that way.

I like it because I like accumulating comp points while using free play. To each their own.

Well yeah, I would too if you get comps on it. I just hate counting down the hands.

I would suggest this:

Are you certain that method 1 on your list doesn't generate comp points ? Both Hobey's and Tamarack generate comp points with this method.

[jbjb]

I like it because I like accumulating comp points while using free play. To each their own.

Well yeah, I would too if you get comps on it. I just hate counting down the hands.

I would suggest this:

Are you certain that method 1 on your list doesn't generate comp points ? Both Hobey's and Tamarack generate comp points with this method.

It doesn't in a local location. Oddly, a few years ago, there was a certain machine that after downloading it, would allow you to straight cash out that amount. Had to be a glitch. Unfortunately, it got fixed.

[LarryS]

I ask this seriously. What is the downside to inserting a 5 dollar bill, play the freeplay and if you dont want to continue..just cash out 5 dollars.
What is so great about the situation at Silver Legacy in reno, compared to the cash in first situation at Atlantis. We all can afford to carry 5 dollars.

whats the "benefit"

[tableplay]

I ask this seriously. What is the downside to inserting a 5 dollar bill, play the freeplay and if you dont want to continue..just cash out 5 dollars.
What is so great about the situation at Silver Legacy in reno, compared to the cash in first situation at Atlantis. We all can afford to carry 5 dollars.

whats the "benefit"

If you hit anything at or above $1200 the machine locks up and your cash and the free play become indistinguishable from one another

[mickeycrimm]

Again kewlj free play is such a vital element of +EV that an AP has to know it. Even table game players get free play.

Hold on, Alan. According to you, you've said it many many times, freeplay is worthless. So now you are saying it is a vital element of +EV? So you've changed your mind? Why did you change your mind? Did you acknowledge here that you changed your mind? Whose input was it that changed your mind?

And this thing about KJ slandering you. Do you really think we are all stupid enough to believe such ignorant blather from you? You trolled him unmercifully to the point he had to respond. It was YOU slandering him. I think you should be suspended for at least a month for trolling KJ and suspended for another month for lying about it.

And Belly has never contributed anything positive here. Nothing. Nada. His whole schtick is harassing AP's. That's it. He has no value here. He's 110% troll and should be banned.

[Alan Mendelson]

Mickey I never downplayed free play. I use it just like everyone. My complaint with kewlj's +EV is that he's counting his $8800 loss as some kind of cockamamie contribution to his +EV.

Trolling? I just wanted him to concede that counting a second table isn't clear as day and he did that. Now it's up to everyone to decide for themselves if his second table count gets 80% or 60% or 20% of the cards.

Even you mickeycrimm left out some details about your $15 a minute play... like you have to find it and that could take a long time, right?

Ya know Mickey when you lose money it's easy to post and no one questions the details: I've never had a profitable year gambling.

[kewlJ]

My complaint with kewlj's +EV is that he's counting his $8800 loss as some kind of cockamamie contribution to his +EV.

This is because YOU don't understand what EV even is. And you don't want to understand. You just want to troll, making accusations based on your predetermined uninformed opinions.

I am going to treat you like an adult, like a reasonable person, and yet again try to explain to you blackjack EV. And I am quite sure, you won't listen, won't try to understand and I will regret it.

Blackjack EV (expected value):
Every hand that a player plays has an expected value, based on whether the player has the advantage for that round or the dealer, which is determined by the count as the hand is played, multiplied by the amount of the wager. Some rounds favor the player (positive counts). Negative counts favor the dealer. Neutral counts slightly favor the dealer. So every round played has an EV, some positive, some negative.

So we can't add all the EV together by actually tracking the actual EV. That would be near impossible without a computer. So we figure the EV through computer simulations, which will tell us on average, just how many hands per 100 hands played will be positive EV and how many will be negative EV. This allows us to come up with an average EV per 100 hands played and subsequently an average EV per hand. Most of the games I play the EV (expected value) or expected win for +EV, is anywhere between $75 and $120 per 100 rounds played, depending on number of decks, rules and penetration. That means that each round played is worth between 75 cents and $1.20.

For ease of this explanation, let's just assume I am playing a game that generates an even $1 per round EV. So I sit down and play 2 shoes at a game with 2 other players. That is 4 hands per round (3 player and dealer) @ 2.8 cards per hand which is the average number of cards as per Don Schlesingers Blackjack Attack 3 (just stating where these numbers are coming from). That is 21 rounds played before the shuffle x 2 shoes is 42 rounds played. So that is $42 in EV.

Next casino (or maybe another table or pit at the same casino) I play 36 rounds, same conditions. That is another $36 in EV. At the end of the day I add up the EV from each session for a total EV for the day. (My goal each day is $300 in EV). Now I take each of those daily EV totals and add then up for the year and by years end the EV and actual win are usually pretty close. This represents the long-term (by my definition). And if you extend it out even further, adding several years together, the actual win and EV is even closer.

For example 2010 thru 2017, my first 8 full years in Vegas my blackjack EV totaled $566,000 and my actual blackjack win was $587,000. THAT is pretty darn close! This is what EV is. It grows by the amount you play and that's why you keep playing. Daily wins and losses don't matter. THAT is nothing but short-term variance. But when you get into the long-term, of months and year(s), EV and actual win will be pretty darn close. And that is not an accident or coincidence. That is mathematics!

So when I have a day that I lose $3000 or $5000, or $8800, or even $10,000 it is almost irrelevant. What will matter is the EV earned. That is where the actual win will end up long-term. AND it works the other way as well. When I have a day that I win $6500, I haven't really won $6500. That is just variance. What I have really earned (and won long-term) is the amount of EV I played that day.

This is a pretty good explanation. I have taught 3 different people to play, including one who was basically an idiot, and even he managed to understand. Yet, somehow, I just know you still won't get it. In large part, because you don't want to get it.

[Alan Mendelson]

Kewlj here's how I look at it: you have two ledgers.

Ledger #1 is for your expected value of each hand you play. It includes things such as the count, comps, cash, free play, peeking at hole cards, match play and whatever tools you have to give you more when you bet.

Ledger #2 is for your actual results after each hand is played.

My position is each ledger is independent. So you might have had $10,000 of expected value on Day 6 in ledger #1, but ledger #2 will show an $8800 loss.

That's forever how I'll look at it. You won't agree and so we'll just have to disagree and move on. Good luck. And I hope that the next time you have $10,000 of EV that you actually win $20,000.