Originally Posted by monet View Post

This is what one husband and wife team was doing late at night at the bar...

They would play a machine and move to another machine every 15 minutes or so. If they hit a quad they would claim it and have the guy punch the hole in the bingo card and sign and have the bartender sign. In the meantime the husband would move to another machine leaving the quad on the first machine. A few seconds later the Wife would swoop in and start playing that machine that had the quad on it. She would play a different game for a awhile and switch to the game with the 4 of a kind on it. She would flag down the bartender and claim that quad that was already claimed by the husband. They would leave these quads on the machines and keep claiming them as needed. So this happens all the times in the bars in LV. It used to happen more when the crews were hustling it and the bars were giving the dough away more so compared to today. Especially if they were giving you 25 dollars on the quads of the day. Some bars had 3 quads for the quad of the day. Also the gamblers bonus was crazy years and years ago and quarter players were making over 50 dollars an hour in bars, 7-11s, grocery stores and gas stations and other places.

My point is or question is do you think this is unethical behavior? Would you have any problems taking advantage of a promotion like this? Are these people scum for doing this? It is well known that a crew on WoV has done things like this and consider it a grey matter. I consider it black and wrong. I have no problem doing such things though and I don't mind admitting it.
Lots to unravel here, Monet, good questions.

The first thing that I want to say is that I think there is no right or wrong answer on some of these things, so it's just going to vary from person to person. It's a matter of opinion, after all.

I guess my first question: Was it free play or actual cash? The casinos are often the ones who have it in their own terms that Free Play has no cash value. Is it even theoretically possible to commit any kind of theft on something that has no value?

I'm not a lawyer, so I would LOVE MrV's opinion. Even if it is not his area, he would obviously be able to at least make a better guess than me. I would say that if you're talking about actual cash money, then you could make an argument for, "Theft by Deception."

https://law.justia.com/codes/nevada/...s205-0832.html

Obtains real, personal or intangible property or the services of another person by a material misrepresentation with intent to deprive that person of the property or services. As used in this paragraph, "material misrepresentation" means the use of any pretense, or the making of any promise, representation or statement of present, past or future fact which is fraudulent and which, when used or made, is instrumental in causing the wrongful control or transfer of property or services. The pretense may be verbal or it may be a physical act.
Again, I'm not an attorney, much less a Gaming one, so I don't know. Better call Bob.

I just think you could at least advance the argument because she's claiming hands that she didn't actually hit and profiting (in part) on those hands. It's also clearly preplanned, so there's your intent.

So, you just have a question of whether it is illegal or not.

ANYWAY:

Look, I think that there are a few general schools of thought when it comes to AP tactics, and you have stated yours, so we'll start with that:

1.) It's either black or white. Person doesn't care if it's black. (Monet)

2.) It's either black or white. Illegal or not illegal. Anything goes if it is not illegal. (???)

3.) There is black, there is white, there is gray. Black is illegal, white is legal AND does not violate any Terms & Conditions of the casino, gray is anything in between. Will do anything that is not black at all. (???)

4.) There is black, there is white, there is gray. Same as above, except there are some ethical considerations in the gray area. (Myself, and I think, Axel, but you'd have to ask him)

5.) Black, white, gray, stay in the white.

Anyway, I believe in black, white and gray. My ethical considerations are that I don't want to cause any harm to another individual person, whether it be another AP, regular player or casino employee.

Monet's Questions:

Anyway, you talk only black and white. Let me pull out a few player's club cards, here.

"This card may only be used by the person in whose name it has been issued."

"Photo ID and this card must be presented to receive any club benefits"

"...May only be used by the person whose name is on rthe card and must be returned upon request...Unauthorized use may lead to revocation of this card and its privileges."

"Card is non-transferable."

Okay, so is using a card not in your name, "Black?" Why? Because it violates the casino's terms? Who cares? I say it is either a crime or not a crime, so encourage anyone to research that for their individual gaming jurisdictions.

Do you think this is unethical behavior? Yes, because it could have repercussions on the bartender for not doing his job properly. If the bartender is in the know and a pre-whatever arrangement took place, then the bartender is essentially helping to defraud the employer, in my view. I'm not sure whether or not any of it is illegal.

Would you have problems taking advantage of a promotion like this? I wouldn't claim, or have someone else claim, 4OaKs that I or that person did not hit ourselves. My main concern would be the bartender could lose his job, even if he is just being lackadaisical. I don't know how seriously the bars take that stuff. I would play the promotion with the Quads I actually hit, of course.

Are these people scum for doing this? Everyone is morally accountable unto themselves, so no. I can offer opinions, but who am I to judge someone else's moral/ethical set? I can just say what mine is.