El Cortez automatic shuffle machine cheating

[MisterV]

Ah, I see it all now: you equate your inability to prove you saw 18 yo's in a row with his seeming inability to prove his claim of cheating based on what he observed.

Got it.

Were I Shufflemaster or El Cortez I would not sue anybody.

First, truth is a defense; I don't know whether what KJ says is true, but in the context of litigation tests could be run on the equipment and I expect the results would probably not be what the mfr. and casino would want us to see.

Then there is the negative publicity: 'nuf said.

As for the subject of damages, KJ's audience is AP's and wannabe AP's, a small group at best.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Then again, as you are hell bent on one-upping KJ wherever possible, I invite your to contact both Shufflemaster and El Cortez and show them the thread.
C'mon, you want to do it: just drop a dime on KJ and see what happens.

*crickets*

[kewlJ]

Ah, I see it all now: you equate your inability to prove you saw 18 yo's in a row with his seeming inability to prove his claim of cheating based on what he observed.

Got it.

Were I Shufflemaster or El Cortez I would not sue anybody.

First, truth is a defense; I don't know whether what KJ says is true, but in the context of litigation tests could be run on the equipment and I expect the results would probably not be what the mfr. and casino would want us to see.

Then there is the negative publicity: 'nuf said.

As for the subject of damages, KJ's audience is AP's and wannabe AP's, a small group at best.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Then again, as you are hell bent on one-upping KJ wherever possible, I invite your to contact both Shufflemaster and El Cortez and show them the thread.
C'mon, you want to do it: just drop a dime on KJ and see what happens.

*crickets*

MrV, I am pretty sure EC is aware of this topic. Maybe not this thread from this site (limited traffic), but one of the similar discussions on one of the 4 sites. When those discussions picked up steam last week, what did EC do? They pulled the two machines in question and replaced them with older models. I wonder why they would do that?

Alan, just shut the fuck up! As usual, you have no clue what you are talking about. MrV is absolutely correct, you are just obsessed with challenging and fighting everything I say. There is something really very wrong with you Alan. I tried to give you the benefit of doubt for a long time, but I can no longer do so. You are a nut. An absolute crazy person, of the likes of Rob Singer.

And BTW, there is a model of the machine in use in LV that I am aware of, but I have not and will not mention it, due to personal reasons.

[Moses]

Mr V. How the hell are you man? Long time no hear. Hope all is well. I see you ran out of the snickers I sent you. lol

MrV, I am pretty sure EC is aware of this topic. Maybe not this thread from this site (limited traffic), but one of the similar discussions on one of the 4 sites. When those discussions picked up steam last week, what did EC do? They pulled the two machines in question and replaced them with older models. I wonder why they would do that?

...And what have you accomplished?

[kewlJ]

MrV, I am pretty sure EC is aware of this topic. Maybe not this thread from this site (limited traffic), but one of the similar discussions on one of the 4 sites. When those discussions picked up steam last week, what did EC do? They pulled the two machines in question and replaced them with older models. I wonder why they would do that?

...And what have you accomplished?

What I have accomplished is

1.) I have warned players, both ploppie -EV players and card counters, who by traditional card counting measure will lose when playing against this mode. Whether anyone does anything with that warning is up to them. I have brought the issue to light.

2.) I have served notice to casinos that are considering using this or any illegal future devices, that we are watching. They AREN'T going to sneak this kind of shit by us.

3.) Thanks to me bring this to light there is currently a discussion taking place, involving the top attorney in this field on whether this should be pursue and if so, who would be the face of a challenge. NOT me, I have basically dropped out of it. But the fact that this attorney is interested tells you there is something to this. Whether or not it is financially beneficial for it to go anywhere is another story.

Moses, I am an AP. A card counter for my livelihood, as you well know. I wouldn't have mentioned this if there was a real possibility of negative consequences like when Uston "won" the Atlantic City case and blackjack conditions became worse. This isn't that widespread.....YET, so there isn't going to be that kind of reaction. But what could happen and I was hoping would, was to nip this in the bud and stop it from spreading before it really gets going.

And while I am sure this clumping is aimed at card counters, it probably hurts regular non-counter players even more. A card counter will recognize what is occurring. If you read Stealth's response over at BJTF, he said: the past few times he played the tables in question, he just felt like something was wrong, but couldn't put his finger on it. That is going to be a very typical reaction for experienced card counters. Even before they notice the actual clump of high cards, they will notice the unusual counts in BOTH directions of +4, -4. Card counters know how often they see such counts. 1 out of every 4 or 5 shoes, not every single shoe. You start seeing extreme counts EVERY shoe, you say, "hum, something is not right here"....even before you have figured out what it is.

Well non-counters, aren't going to know of these unusual counts in each direction because they aren't counting. All they are going to know is they are losing. So they will even be the more unsuspecting victims than card counters.

Why do I care about non-counters? While I am an AP, and card counter, I am also a person. A person who knows right from wrong. And this is wrong. It is illegal. Sometimes you just have to speak up when you see something wrong.

[kewlJ]

Sometimes you just have to speak up when you see something wrong.

This is what a good citizen does, right LarryS?

[Alan Mendelson]

MrV wrote "Ah, I see it all now: you equate your inability to prove you saw 18 yo's in a row with his seeming inability to prove his claim of cheating based on what he observed.

Got it."

No you don't got it. I never said the casino committed a crime, used loaded dice, or cheated anyone.

Are you really a lawyer V?

Do you understand that it was alleged that a crime was committed without evidence. Absolutely no evidence.

And it's far different than Singer claiming he won a million dollars. The values of Shufflemaster and El Cortez were damaged by someone who for all we know lost $8800 one night playing blackjack and thought they'd get back at a casino by calling them cheats on five different forums followed by gamblers.

[kewlJ]

MrV wrote "Ah, I see it all now: you equate your inability to prove you saw 18 yo's in a row with his seeming inability to prove his claim of cheating based on what he observed.

Got it."

No you don't got it. I never said the casino committed a crime, used loaded dice, or cheated anyone.

Are you really a lawyer V?

Do you understand that it was alleged that a crime was committed without evidence. Absolutely no evidence.

And it's far different than Singer claiming he won a million dollars. The values of Shufflemaster and El Cortez were damaged by someone who for all we know lost $8800 one night playing blackjack and thought they'd get back at a casino by calling them cheats on five different forums followed by gamblers.

Alan are you skipping doses of your dementia drugs or is the dosage just no longer strong enough and no longer effective?

See MrV. When I mention Alan and Singer's advanced age, this is what I am talking about. It's not the actual number, it is the state of their mind. Both their brains have or are turning to mush. They have lost their ability to think rationally. Common sense must be the first to go.

[Moses]

What I have accomplished is

1.) I have warned players, both ploppie -EV players and card counters, who by traditional card counting measure will lose when playing against this mode. Whether anyone does anything with that warning is up to them. I have brought the issue to light.

Ploppies and Newbies are going to lose their money regardless. APs dont need your help.

2.) I have served notice to casinos that are considering using this or any illegal future devices, that we are watching. They AREN'T going to sneak this kind of shit by us.

A HiLo count is NOT a good tool for determining an illegal device. So you get casinos to take out the machines for DD and replace them with hand shuffled games. Now you get 50% pen. 6.5. No DAS. double 10,11. Now what?

3.) Thanks to me bring this to light there is currently a discussion taking place, involving the top attorney in this field on whether this should be pursue and if so, who would be the face of a challenge. NOT me, I have basically dropped out of it. .

Well, that's just peachy. You've created a shit storm for other APs to deal with and now you're out? Well, let me be the first to say Thank you very much.

And while I am sure this clumping is aimed at card counters, it probably hurts regular non-counter players even more..

Nothing from nothing leaves nothing.

A card counter will recognize what is occurring. If you read Stealth's response over at BJTF, he said: the past few times he played the tables in question, he just felt like something was wrong, but couldn't put his finger on it. That is going to be a very typical reaction for experienced card counters. Even before they notice the actual clump of high cards, they will notice the unusual counts in BOTH directions of +4, -4. Card counters know how often they see such counts. 1 out of every 4 or 5 shoes, not every single shoe. You start seeing extreme counts EVERY shoe, you say, "hum, something is not right here"....even before you have figured out what it is. ..

Yes. We WILL recognize it. We WILL adapt. WE won't play without decent pen. We really don't need your help. Stealth is a bright guy but also a team manager. The reason he can't put his finger on it because he is viewing a pitch game with a HiLo mentality. What you've described is a Tarzan or my heaven. But a HiLo Hell.

Well non-counters, aren't going to know of these unusual counts in each direction because they aren't counting. All they are going to know is they are losing. So they will even be the more unsuspecting victims than card counters...

Non card counters, ploppies, and newbies should arm themselves with knowledge before they decorate the table with idiocy. Not my circus. Not my monkey.

Why do I care about non-counters? While I am an AP, and card counter, I am also a person. A person who knows right from wrong. And this is wrong. It is illegal. Sometimes you just have to speak up when you see something wrong.

The purpose is to drain the swamp. Sometimes fighting alligators is necessary. But it seems all you want to do is fight alligators. If you're really on a "save the world from themselves" mission? Why not stand in front of a carnival game with a sign saying "carny games are rigged."? But take me to a carny basketball shooting game and I can still fill up your truck with teddy bears...rigged or not. I will find a way or not play. Samething in blackjack. You should try it.

Alan: My point is history proves if one starts screwing with a casinos, things get worse and never get better. Maybe El C is a dive. But a dive makes a good place appear even better. So KJ may thinks he is messing with a dive. But bigger players could be watching. Nothing whizzes off a casino more than an AP fucking with them.

Why? They don't need APs to make money. They want the ploppies to believe there is money to be made. A sound AP playing within casino tolerance can help create this illusion. Fact is, it takes a ton of hard work to be a successfull AP.

[Alan Mendelson]

Common sense? If you had common sense kewlj you'd have photos of the machines at the table, you'd have witnesses with real names, you would have a substantiated claim. Instead, as Moses pointed out, what did you accomplish? You have no case, the alleged bad guys have removed the machines, no one can verify what you saw, you can't even produce a photo of the machine. Yeah, you got to post on five forums using different screen names and gave two companies ammunition to sue the websites.

Yeah, you accomplished a lot.

[monet]

Moses calling down the Thunder with his last post!

The El Cortel is not a Dive but they watch harder at that Casino than any other in Vegas and they have a reputation for giving no action to APs or anyone who shows a consistent win or only plays on point days. Those guys learned from Michael Gaughan... do you need to say anymore after that?

[Moses]

Moses calling down the Thunder with his last post!

The El Cortel is not a Dive but they watch harder at that Casino than any other in Vegas and they have a reputation for giving no action to APs or anyone who shows a consistent win or only plays on point days. Those guys learned from Michael Gaughan... do you need to say anymore after that?

Sorry Monet. Didn't mean to imply El C was a dive. It was an assumption base on what Ive read.

Casino A allows deep pen. But watches hard and tosses an AP at the drop of a hat. Casino B gives 50% but is very nice to everyone. On a weekend Casino B is full. Casino A is dead. It seems to me Casino A is good for Casino B biz. Hence, bad news travels faster than good. Therefore, I just assume that all have some sort of a connection and remain under everyones radar. Play nice - Be nice.

[monet]

Moses calling down the Thunder with his last post!

The El Cortel is not a Dive but they watch harder at that Casino than any other in Vegas and they have a reputation for giving no action to APs or anyone who shows a consistent win or only plays on point days. Those guys learned from Michael Gaughan... do you need to say anymore after that?

Sorry Monet. Didn't mean to imply El C was a dive. It was an assumption base on what Ive read.

Casino A allows deep pen. But watches hard and tosses an AP at the drop of a hat. Casino B gives 50% but is very nice to everyone. On a weekend Casino B is full. Casino A is dead. It seems to me Casino A is good for Casino B biz. Hence, bad news travels faster than good. Therefore, I just assume that all have some sort of a connection and remain under everyones radar. Play nice - Be nice.

You have a good point but don't forget even in these corporate conditions you still have casino A hating Casino B for some old or new beef and at times they do clobber one another. Sams Town held a pretty good grudge and in the end they beat out the Can Can club and made them pay. The Stations have some serious hatred from that buy back for pennies on the dollar they pulled decades ago.

Not much different when you compare these so called gambling forums.

[MisterV]

Mr V. How the hell are you man? Long time no hear. Hope all is well. I see you ran out of the snickers I sent you.

Moses, I think you're confusing me with another person.

I'm not an AP, I live in Portland, Oregon and nobody ever gave me Snickers (except on Halloween, when I was a kid).

[MisterV]

No you don't got it. I never said the casino committed a crime, used loaded dice, or cheated anyone.

Lord, but you're as dense as a poured concrete foundation.

I wasn't referring to cheating.

No, I was saying that you're pissed because we all call you a lying sack of shit (and a poor liar, at that) for concocting your uncorroborated "I saw eighteen yo's in a row rolled at Caesars" yarn, yet when KJ makes an uncorroborated claim such as that we all believe him.

It must annoy you to no end that he has credibility, whereas you ... well, let's just say if you said it was raining I'd have to look out the window.

But that's cool; we know you by now and have learned to discount your claims, just as we'd do for a crazy uncle who lives in the attic.

[Moses]

Mr V. How the hell are you man? Long time no hear. Hope all is well. I see you ran out of the snickers I sent you.

Moses, I think you're confusing me with another person.

I'm not an AP, I live in Portland, Oregon and nobody ever gave me Snickers (except on Halloween, when I was a kid).

My mistake. I thought he was one of KJs buddies. His handle began with a V. The Snickers was sort of a private joke. William Dafoe? Anyway he was a hoot!

[Alan Mendelson]

No you don't got it. I never said the casino committed a crime, used loaded dice, or cheated anyone.

Lord, but you're as dense as a poured concrete foundation.

I wasn't referring to cheating.
I
No, I was saying that you're pissed because we all call you a lying sack of shit (and a poor liar, at that) for concocting your uncorroborated "I saw eighteen yo's in a row rolled at Caesars" yarn, yet when KJ makes an uncorroborated claim such as that we all believe him.

It must annoy you to no end that he has credibility, whereas you ... well, let's just say if you said it was raining I'd have to look out the window.

But that's cool; we know you by now and have learned to discount your claims, just as we'd do for a crazy uncle who lives in the attic.

No V you're the dense one. I didn't accuse two companies of being involved in a crime. No one can sue WOV or this forum for my statement that I saw 18 yo's in a row. I damaged no one but myself.

Kewlj who thought he was being a hero on five different forums has accused a licensed casino of the crime of cheating it's players and he accused a major gaming manufacturer of making equipment that can be altered for that criminal activity.

From previous posts I'm sure Dan feels he can't be sued. But I wouldn't want to be in his shoes if he does get sued.

And the hero kewlj is no hero at all.

Again what kind of lawyer are you V?

[kewlJ]

Take your meds Alan, take your meds.

[MisterV]

alan, I am not talking about the specific CONTENT of what either of you post; I am comparing the reception which each of you receive here when you post uncorroborated claims.

With you it was eighteen yo's; with him it was a gaffed machine; it doesn't concren me as to WHAT the claim is, I am focusing on how they are RECEIVED here.

The point is that his claims, no matter what they may be, are deemed more credible than yours, whatever they may be.

Now, do you finally get it?

Your history precedes and damns you; frankly, old man, you are quite simply not to be believed.

[Alan Mendelson]

alan, I am not talking about the specific CONTENT of what either of you pst; I am comparing the reception which each of you receive here when you post uncorroborated claims.

With you it was eighteen yo's; with him it was a gaffed machine; it doesn't concren me as to WHAT the claim is, I am focusing on how they are RECEIVED here.

The point is that his claims, no matter what they may be, are deemed more credible than yours, whatever they may be.

Now, do you finally get it?

Your history precedes and damns you.

I get it. You're dancing around the issue. You're deflecting the discussion from kewlj's libelous claims on multiple websites and trying to twist the discussion into whether or not I have credibility after telling about the NON CRIMINAL ACTIVITY I saw at a craps table.

Let me assure you that the lawyers at Shufflemaster and El Cortez won't care about 18 yos in a row at Caesars Palace nor will the lawyers at CET. But the lawyers at Shufflemaster and El Cortez will care that when you Google El Cortez among the top results are the threads on this forum and WOV and several other forums about El Cortez cheating (allegedly).

[MisterV]

"The Lawyers" will only care if they are paid to care, and to get to that point their clients need to care enough to pay them the necessary big bucks.

Yes, I am well aware that companies such as Shufflemaster and casinos such as El Cortez can sue for defamation; so what?

They won't: you can bet on it.

So go ahead, take your best shot alan "the rat" mendelson.

Deflect some of that rage you must feel after being punked here by your son; dump a metaphorical horse cart filled with road apples on KJ, the leader of your online detractors.

As Kurt aptly sang: "Here we are now, entertain us!"



*sips coffee, pets robotic cat*