El Cortez automatic shuffle machine cheating

[Alan Mendelson]

Yes V you're a troll.

And you're really a lawyer? Companies have legal departments.

Good luck.

[LarryS]

Sometimes you just have to speak up when you see something wrong.

This is what a good citizen does, right LarryS?

this topic is not in my wheelhouse, so I stand clear of participating. However yes......this thread and the original post seems to have the intent that would label you as acting as a good citizen.

[kewlJ]

Just curious. Who else thinks Alan has contacted EC and Shufflemaster?

[Alan Mendelson]

Just curious. Who else thinks Alan has contacted EC and Shufflemaster?

You did, when you posted your criminal allegations on the Internet.

[kewlJ]

Just curious. Who else thinks Alan has contacted EC and Shufflemaster?

You did, when you posted your criminal allegations on the Internet.

You are soooooo obsessed.

[mickeycrimm]

Just curious. Who else thinks Alan has contacted EC and Shufflemaster?

You did, when you posted your criminal allegations on the Internet.

El Cortez cheated at Blackjack, period. Alan, tell the bitches to sue me. See if I give a flying rats ass. They are cheating pieces of shit. And it's obvious they hired you to run flak on the accusers. You are in the pocket of the corrupt El Cortez. Sue me. See how much your dumb ass gets. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Fucked off your time and money.

[MaxPen]

I am trying to figure out why KJ keeps bringing up the topic everyday when self admittedly he said that he was washing his hands of it.

[Midwest Player]

Common sense? If you had common sense kewlj you'd have photos of the machines at the table, you'd have witnesses with real names, you would have a substantiated claim. Instead, as Moses pointed out, what did you accomplish? You have no case, the alleged bad guys have removed the machines, no one can verify what you saw, you can't even produce a photo of the machine. Yeah, you got to post on five forums using different screen names and gave two companies ammunition to sue the websites.

Yeah, you accomplished a lot.

Almost all the time the website is protected from law suits by Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. It is much more likely the individual making the accusation will get sued. Don't suggest that any website is going to get sued when in fact it is a very unlikely event. https://www.socalinternetlawyer.com/...ternet-forums/

[Alan Mendelson]

We've discussed web lawsuits before and Dan is well aware of the law and feels confident. But do you as a website owner want the headaches and the costs of having to defend yourself because someone loses their maturity online as an anonymous poster? (By the way that's paraphrased from the link you posted above Midwest Player.)

Also from the article: "Some judges, however, are less than up to speed on the web. In these cases, the litigation can stagger along for four to six months until a motion for summary judgment is filed at which time even the dimmest of judges usually dismiss the claims against the forum defendant."

One more thing. Dan is well known and has a good reputation. Should he fall victim to claims that don't hold up?

[mickeycrimm]

We've discussed web lawsuits before and Dan is well aware of the law and feels confident. But do you as a website owner want the headaches and the costs of having to defend yourself because someone loses their maturity online as an anonymous poster? (By the way that's paraphrased from the link you posted above Midwest Player.)

Also from the article: "Some judges, however, are less than up to speed on the web. In these cases, the litigation can stagger along for four to six months until a motion for summary judgment is filed at which time even the dimmest of judges usually dismiss the claims against the forum defendant."

One more thing. Dan is well known and has a good reputation. Should he fall victim to claims that don't hold up?

It would cost the plaintiff a lot of money. No lawyer would take it on contingency knowing it will just be thrown out. At least thats what I think. V or regnis would know more about it.

[JSTAT]

Opinion of casino gambling expert Eliot Jacobson on Automatic Shuffling Machine (ASM) cheating at blackjack.

[Half Smoke]

I really, really, really doubt El Cortez has any interest in a lawsuit. People are saying all kinds of stuff online and almost never get sued - like McDonalds beef is horse meat and all kinds of stuff like that.
Also, if the claim is accurate El Cortez could have a public relations disaster on its hands if a disgruntled employee (and they must have many) blew the whistle.

[Alan Mendelson]

Mickeycrimm wrote "It would cost the plaintiff a lot of money. No lawyer would take it on contingency "

Mickey, Mickey, Mickey. Where do I start?

Companies like Shufflemaster and El Cortez have their own lawyers and legal departments. They don't need lawyers to take a case on a contingency.

And contingency fees apply to accident cases, not to litigation. If they needed outside counsel they'd be paying for it win or lose.

Contingency. LOL

[Alan Mendelson]

Why the change in the discussion? I was expecting all of the APs to start posting their support of kewlj's "investigation." Don't you all have supporting evidence about these shufflers and how they were altered and used?

No anonymous employees blowing the whistle either?

[Dan Druff]

I am not worried about any lawsuits, primarily for the reasons already stated by MisterV.

Furthermore, I do not own the content posted here.

This is part of our terms of service, which everyone agrees to at registration:

Any content you post on Vegas Casino Talk is owned by you. However, you grant us a non-revocable license to publish, reproduce, display, and make any other use of this content. You retain no right to demand the removal of any content you posted here, even if you choose to leave the site permanently. Removal of your content is at the sole discretion of Administrators. Removal of your account is also at the sole discretion of Administrators.

There have been various landmark cases regarding forum owners and what they're responsible for when their users post material which harms others. In general, forum owners are not responsible.

[Dan Druff]

kewlJ was correct to bring this to our attention if he feels this is going on.

I disagree with Moses' assertion that recreational players will lose anyway, so there's no point to call out cheating.

I also disagree that such call-outs will make it more difficult for APs to win. In fact, I think it sets a very bad precedent to take a policy to allow casinos to cheat, as long as you feel you can re-exploit their cheating. Not only is this immoral, but eventually they will find a way to cheat you which you either can't exploit or won't discover in time.

This is a different situation than, say, a game with really bad odds, where APs figure out how to beat it. Nobody is obligated to call out bad odds games to rec players, because rec players already know they're playing at a statistical disadvantage.

But cheating is a whole different ballgame. The entire concept of AP revolves around the ability to beat casinos at their own game -- to turn spots they believe are -EV into +EV. Being an AP shouldn't be about finding a way to beat the casinos while quietly allowing them to cheat others.

[Alan Mendelson]

JSTAT thanks for posting the video. His message was clear but I'm sure it will get twisted. LOL

[Dan Druff]

I have just verified that the Shufflemaster MD3 can indeed read cards.

https://www.sggaming.com/Games/Shuff...flers/MD3-7814

MD3

Take Batch Shuffler Performance to New Levels!

Leading the way in batch shuffling technology, the MD3™ features card recognition that reads and verifies every card being shuffled, bringing an unprecedented level of security to multi-deck table games like blackjack and baccarat. Its patented platform and gripper system counts and shuffles up to eight decks of cards quickly and quietly, and alerts the dealer to missing or added cards.This impressive shuffler combines all of its features to increase game revenue, enhance game security, and provide operational efficiencies for cost savings.

I bolded the relevant part.


And then there's this WoV post from October 2017, from a guy named "jopke", who claims to have sold a Shufflemaster on eBay:

I'm the guy who sold that machine on eBay.

First, to the OP: I don't appreciate you using my images. I took those pictures myself and therefore own the copyright.
Second, after reading the thread I can state with certainty this is not the person who I sold this shuffle machine to, and not the person he sold it to. I actually know exactly where that machine is, and it is in a casino.
Finally, I own a bunch of shufflers. I've had multiple MD3s, MD2s, Deckmates, iDeals, Ace, King and One2Six shufflers. I have rebuilt shufflers and studied every detail of how they work mechanically and have dug very deep into the software. I have all of the passwords needed to program these machines.

I can state, with certainty, that SHFL doesn't sell shufflers with any mode for playing other than random. The mechanisms for how the MD2, MD3 & DM work are all basically the same. The MD2-CR and MD3 DO have card recognition. The way it works is there is a little camera that reads the cards. But the only uses for that are:
1. identify missing cards
2. verify jackpot hands (use by iDeal, not possible with MD3)
3. sort cards. The card sorting mode puts the cards in "new" order. The only configuration you have is to train it on a brand of card, you can't set the order at all.

So I can assure everyone out there that Shufflemaster shufflers are 100% fair from the factory and do not have any settings to make them otherwise.

Sorry it took me so long to reply to this thread, I've been car shopping and just haven't kept up with the forums in the last few days!

P.S. if anyone is in the market for a shuffler, PM me! But if you plan to use it to stack the deck, you'll be disappointed.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gamb.../9/#post610514


So it appears that these Shufflemasters can indeed read cards AND sort them into sequential order.

It's not a stretch to believe that they could be modified to do more than that.

[Half Smoke]

El Cortez is most likely just waiting for this issue to fall off the radar which it almost certainly will.
People get tired of hearing the same thing over and over and over again.
Unless some undeniable evidence is presented to a major media outlet and they broadcast the story.
3 people could die of food poisoning from an El Cortez restaurant and it would be totally forgotten in about 8 days.

[Dan Druff]

I've never been to El Cortez. I was told about 15 years ago that they were banning basic strategy BJ players -- the only Vegas property to do so!

Can anyone else verify that they have removed certain Shufflemasters from service since these accusations were posted?