El Cortez automatic shuffle machine cheating

[Dan Druff]

Here's a simple technical discussion for those who may not understand the significance of shuffle machines being able to see and arrange cards.

The only difference between a shuffle machine arranging cards in sequential order (apparently a feature on the newer Shufflemasters), and one arranging cards illegally, is the programming.

That's it.

Physically, they would be identical machines.

The same capability to arrange the cards sequentially could easily be used to arrange the cards other ways, such as the alleged high-card-clumping.

All a bad actor would need to do would be to access where the programming is stored, and change it to this slightly different functionality.

From a non-technical standpoint, picture if you taught a 6-year-old to arrange a deck sequentially by suit. Once the 6-year-old mastered this, you could easily teach him to take a bunch of high cards and place them at the end of the deck. The ability to do the first thing would basically give him the ability to do the second. You'd just need to give him different instructions. Same situation here.

My concern is that someone could simply remove a flash device in the system containing the programming, and either modify it or replace it with an identical device with different programming.

I am also concerned that the developers of the device simply didn't consider this abuse possibly taking place (or perhaps didn't care), and thus there were no measures in place to prevent it.

I don't know the hardware of a Shufflemaster, so I can't comment further. But "seeing eye shufflers" should make the average gambler very nervous, as they're just begging to be abused.

[monet]

It is pretty funny that the El Cortel would decide to cheat on only 2 games in the place and that those games are 6:5 BJ right? I have been going to the the El Cortel for over 20 years now and at times I lived in the joint for free. They had dime roulette when I first came to town and I used to watch those dealers work like mad with all the chips on the table every spin lol. Anyways they had a ton of VP until Dancer came in one weekend and after his thing they swept the place clean but still left some meat on the bone.

This Casino watches and counts along with every BJ Player they have. If a machine player plays too big or only on point days they just no mail them. If they think a BJ player is counting or just playing Basic Strategy they flat bet them or tell them they can't play BJ anymore. I find it odd they are going to decide to have two machines that are set up to cheat the AP or Public. However since you are saying that APs have and can take advantage of this clumping that only makes me think if it was done that it is some sort of inside job to win money off of the Casino meaning that it is a rogue operation to steal money off of the Casino.

Only this is the El Cortel... most of the employees and managers have been there longer than I have been in town and they continue to work there. Years ago Jackie gave them stock incentives but I think that is long gone. Such a strange way for the El Cortel to go about cheating!?

[Half Smoke]

Gamblers, whether or not they're APs are not a group of people who attract a lot of sympathy from the general public.
It's not like they're wounded war veterans or anything like that.
Present a story of gamblers getting cheated by a casino and the general public is going to yawn. Who cares?

[monet]

I am trying to figure out why KJ keeps bringing up the topic everyday when self admittedly he said that he was washing his hands of it.

Is this some sort of a rule like "Verbal is Binding?"

Read my Lips... No new taxes? - Bush

I did not have sexual relations with that women. - Clinton

I am going to build a Wall and Mexico is going to Pay for it. - Trump

We signed into Law the biggest Middle Class Tax Cut in History. - Obama Lie

90 percent of the budget deficit is due to George W. Bush’s policies. - Obama Lie

If you like your health-care plan, you can keep it. - Obama Lie

The day after Benghazi happened, I acknowledged that this was an act of terrorism. - Obama Lie

Republicans have filibustered 500 pieces of legislation. - Obama Lie



Didn't Maxpen say something like he was going to stop bashing Mission146 for the WoN thing but kept at it for some time?
Didn't Monet swear off posting on gambling forums time and time again?
Seems to me that actions speak louder than words or even typed out words on so called gambling forums.
Seems to me that you may have been profiting from something and kewlJ fucked it up lol.
Plenty more where that came from in this town!
They say cheaters never win and crime doesn't pay but the statistics prove otherwise while we are above ground that is.
I still am amazed that a guy with a part time job making 6 figures a year is working part time in the Casino making 6 figures a year as well... Yes I am jealous.

[MaxPen]

I am trying to figure out why KJ keeps bringing up the topic everyday when self admittedly he said that he was washing his hands of it.

Is this some sort of a rule like "Verbal is Binding?"

Read my Lips... No new taxes? - Bush

I did not have sexual relations with that women. - Clinton

I am going to build a Wall and Mexico is going to Pay for it. - Trump

We signed into Law the biggest Middle Class Tax Cut in History. - Obama Lie

90 percent of the budget deficit is due to George W. Bush’s policies. - Obama Lie

If you like your health-care plan, you can keep it. - Obama Lie

The day after Benghazi happened, I acknowledged that this was an act of terrorism. - Obama Lie

Republicans have filibustered 500 pieces of legislation. - Obama Lie



Didn't Maxpen say something like he was going to stop bashing Mission146 for the WoN thing but kept at it for some time?
Didn't Monet swear off posting on gambling forums time and time again?
Seems to me that actions speak louder than words or even typed out words on so called gambling forums.
Seems to me that you may have been profiting from something and kewlJ fucked it up lol.
Plenty more where that came from in this town!
They say cheaters never win and crime doesn't pay but the statistics prove otherwise while we are above ground that is.
I still am amazed that a guy with a part time job making 6 figures a year is working part time in the Casino making 6 figures a year as well... Yes I am jealous.

You can stop being jealous as I left my job a month ago.

[monet]

You can stop being jealous as I left my job a month ago.

Part Time gig making that kind of coin and you just walk?? Must be nice but I can understand the strain on the family or whatever... Jobs are for suckers.

[mickeycrimm]

JSTAT thanks for posting the video. His message was clear but I'm sure it will get twisted. LOL

Alan, Alan, Alan. Where do I start. KJ already pointed out teliot's faulty reasoning. Teliot has the clump always being at the front of the deck while it can appear anywhere.

Clear message. LOL

[AxelWolf]

JSTAT thanks for posting the video. His message was clear but I'm sure it will get twisted. LOL

Alan, Alan, Alan. Where do I start. KJ already pointed out teliot's faulty reasoning. Teliot has the clump always being at the front of the deck while it can appear anywhere.

Clear message. LOL

Thats only a minor set back and easily overcome.

[coach belly]

The statements below seem to be in direct conflict.

Can both be telling the truth?

I have played El Cortez regularly for years, meaning multiple times per week. Hundreds of sessions per year. And my results have been that every year, EC has been among my best individual casinos, usually top 2. Combined for the last 8 years, EC is my number 1 money maker.

This Casino watches and counts along with every BJ Player they have. If they think a BJ player is counting or just playing Basic Strategy they flat bet them or tell them they can't play BJ anymore.

[jbjb]

The statements below seem to be in direct conflict.

Can both be telling the truth?

I have played El Cortez regularly for years, meaning multiple times per week. Hundreds of sessions per year. And my results have been that every year, EC has been among my best individual casinos, usually top 2. Combined for the last 8 years, EC is my number 1 money maker.

This Casino watches and counts along with every BJ Player they have. If they think a BJ player is counting or just playing Basic Strategy they flat bet them or tell them they can't play BJ anymore.

I don't think KJ plays the SD games which are the one closely hawked. I've personally only played there a couple of times with low bets on the SD game and no problems. Never saw anyone backed off, but I've probably only got less than an hour total time on a bj game there.

As for the cheating allegations, I've got no comment except only 200 shoes after a few months isn't enough of a sample size. Could've just been one of those rare timing things like getting back to back royals.

As for the "sort mode", go watch a carnival game like Three Card Poker during deck changes. Some casinos utilize this to put the cards back in order. During this time, a green and red light flash intermittently.

[coach belly]

Rob's little dick in your mouth and his hairy balls on your chin. Unless he's packing you up the ass. Which one do you like better? I'll bet it's Rob's smelly balls on your chin. Or when he shits on your chest and you lick it up.

Nobody thinks about Singer as much as you do Nancy-boy, that's for sure.

Those are some weird fantasies you have wormm, they call that projection.

Have you been dreaming about your "friend" tewlj ?

[Moses]

El Cortez cheated at Blackjack, period. .

I will say this topic has made me want to take a better look between a hand shuffle and a machine shuffle. I wouldn't say it's cheating but there seems to be a difference in deck compositions. Verite allows one to set the game at various levels of volatility. That might be a better way to prepare for it. My adjustments are made on the fly in accordance to what's been played vs what still remains. Therefore, PEN is the name of game. The deeper the better. Hence, the cards can't come out in clumps if they are setting in the discard tray.
KJ is a shoe expert where is looks for special values and invests wisely. His style dictates a quicker pull on the trigger and longer lasting TC bet opportunites. Pitch requires learning to duck and be a little more patient before you swing. But when you do, you hit 'em like a mule kick. Most times you only get one shot...so make it your best.

kewlJ was correct to bring this to our attention if he feels this is going on.
I disagree with Moses' assertion that recreational players will lose anyway, so there's no point to call out cheating.
.

To me a ploopy is the guy that jumps into a game. Wins 7 out of 10 hands. Grossly overtips the dealer, like she has some type of control. Overbets with no logic and in a negative count. Loses all his chips. Walks away screaming "this place is screwing me." Goes to the bank machine. Comes back. Repeats.

Or you have the smoke filled packed tables with the "deer in the headlights look" that play until their chips are gone. But they enjoyed conversation with others.

You would know far more about a chip that stacks the deck than me. But if we're talking DD. I'm wondering how the shuffled cards are going to know what I'm going to do before I actually do it? And how they can adjust on the fly? For instance, I might go two hands off the top one time and one hand the next. Or vice versa the next deck. I might hit 16 vs 10, I might stand, I might ask the dealer, I might flip a coin.

The little old ladies can talk behind your back in church and THAT can change your life. But in a casino you should know what is coming and PREPARE for it. No? Now, I've noticed the dealer will always pick up the played cards a certain way. They put the unplayed cards in half the deck of the cards in the tray before inserting all back into the machine. I always thought maybe that had some significance if there is a "little green man in there" that can quickly read the cards.

I will say a hand shuffled deck tends to offer more of a consistent pattern. But I can't say whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. Probably a good thing for conventional counters. Some may consider Preferential Shuffling to be a form of cheating. Well, if I did and created a stir, they'd just say we don't allow counting. So I don't get mad. I walk away and find my game to play. IF the next guy comes along and loses? HE should've been smart enough to walk. Believe it or not. Some people like short pen. Why? Because it takes them longer to lose all their money. Go figure! I just don't think blackjack is the venue for a "save the whales" mentality.

KJ simply is not using the correct tool for this particular game. KJ is a very bright guy. I'm fairly certain Tarzan would be banned within the first hour from these "cheating machines." So you've got to be patient for the deck composition that weighs heavily in your favor.. Get in. Get paid. Get out.

KJ, rather than creating a stir that hurts other APs who will hurt you in turn. Why not, quit being so damn stubborn, and learn to beat them at their own game? I think that is the feel good moments you're searching for! I read somewhere El C is one of your top income producers. Why would you bite the hand that feeds you?

Dan: 5 posts per day. It would be nice to know how the cycle is considered and when one can post again.

[AxelWolf]

The statements below seem to be in direct conflict.

Can both be telling the truth?

This Casino watches and counts along with every BJ Player they have. If they think a BJ player is counting or just playing Basic Strategy they flat bet them or tell them they can't play BJ anymore.

I don't think KJ plays the SD games which are the one closely hawked. I've personally only played there a couple of times with low bets on the SD game and no problems. Never saw anyone backed off, but I've probably only got less than an hour total time on a bj game there.

As for the cheating allegations, I've got no comment except only 200 shoes after a few months isn't enough of a sample size. Could've just been one of those rare timing things like getting back to back royals.

As for the "sort mode", go watch a carnival game like Three Card Poker during deck changes. Some casinos utilize this to put the cards back in order. During this time, a green and red light flash intermittently.

I think it would matter how in your face the clumping was. If in fact, its only 10's in this clump each time. I think 200 shoes would be more than enough. I guess it would also depend on How many 10's were clumping.

If I really thought the casino was cheating me, I wouldnt have stuck around for 200 shoes to find out. I would have stopped sooner and found a way to take advantage of the situation or just stoped playing.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan wrote "I have just verified that the Shufflemaster MD3 can indeed read cards."

Dan the card casinos in LA including Commerce, Hollywood Park, Bicycle and the others use their shuffling machines to verify the cards and have been for years.

The issue is not technology but would a licensed casino alter its machines?

I'm afraid I can't buy into any conspiracy theories like this. Nor would I accept a rogue operation without someone seeing the chips being changed and new codes being punched in.

It's a great idea for a movie. But in reality it's too fantastic.

And now that the machines have vanished and there is no presented proof it ever happened is just too convenient.

For a while the WOV crowd was going hog wild over unfair dice and even that hasn't died out yet... but no unfair dice ever were discovered... except by the WOV trackers.

[kewlJ]

Answers and comments:

MaxPen: Why do I keep posting? Just look at all the questions and false comments posted in the last few hours. Am I supposed to let these false comments go unanswered? Plus, I am an idiot. I guess that is the answer you are looking for.

Moses: I do play mostly shoe games. EC double deck is dealt from a shoe. That's a technicality. It is still double deck. Double deck games are the better opportunity. My win rate is significantly higher at DD than shoe games. BUT, generally DD is hawked more closely So I limit the DD games to properties that are independent (not a chain or associated with other properties) and aren't very active in the databases. That way consequences from any heat or backoff remains limited to that single property.

Here is a little plug for my friends at EC. El Cortez has the best BJ rules in Las Vegas (except for a few high limit rooms). That is not giving anything away. That is their advertised slogan. BUT as most AP's know, they are very sweaty, hence the nickname The Sweaty Spaniard. Someone mentioned they have been known to backoff basic strategy players. Hell I have seen them back off players that are no more counting cards that the man on the moon.

So why is it in my rotation? Did I mention they have the best BJ rules in LV? Playing short sessions, leaving after showing spread and one other little trick that I am not going to mention have allowed me to play there regularly, when most other card counters can't or won't. And the result, it has been well worth it. And that includes this year, even through this incident.

Alan: I am sure everyone sees it, but all Alan is trying to do with all this liable and law suit talk is get Dan Druff scared so he will ban me. Alan continues to be a nasty, sneaky, shyster, anti-AP, AP hater, KJ hater, who will stoop to any level. He has no boundries. And he is not even clever about it. Any 3rd grader can see his obsessive hate and bias towards AP's and me in particular.

Eliot Jacobson (teliot) Video: As Mickey mentioned, I have already commented on it. Besides that Eliot is a known former (failed) AP, who defected to the casino game protection side to make money....what is the name for that??...Oh yeah...TRAITOR! So besides that, Eliot's response is like he didn't even read what was posted and what he was responded to. Alan does this a lot. It just means the response is total useless. He didn't address what was really happening and being discussed.

Dan Druff: He is a person with extensive knowledge in this field. Not necessarily this particular product, but this field and he is concluding, similarly to BBB at WoV, that it can be done. Not that it is being done, but it can be done. That alone should be a problem. A problem that Gaming should be concerned about. BUT, on this site a knowledgeable person like Dan is dismissed, and that knowledge and actual facts dismissed. They can't overcome certain people's pre-determined baked in biases.

Well, I continue to vehemently state that not only can it be done but it has been done. I have witnessed it twice now for extended periods at two different locations. So maybe it isn't being done currently, probably thanks to me. Or at least it isn't being done in my rotation of games, the games that I play regularly and am familiar with. But I will bet it is being done somewhere at this very moment, possibly even somewhere in LV or Nevada.

I am sorry if my calling this out has outed and (temporarily) ended an AP opportunity for some of my AP brothers. I really am sorry. As much as I feel this needs to be brought to light and have some official ruling put an end to it, I would have kept my mouth shut, had a realized the AP implications before I posted. If the casino industry is allowed to cheat, they will do so more and more, in new ways, maybe ways that can't be APed, and we all lose. And that is a guarantee. A guarantee backed up by history of man's (and the casino industry's) greed.

[kewlJ]

It is pretty funny that the El Cortel would decide to cheat on only 2 games in the place and that those games are 6:5 BJ right?

Those games are NOT 6:5. I don't play 6:5. These are 3:2 blackjack with very good rules. The best in Vegas outside high limit rooms.

And BTW, here is what happened. About 3-4 months ago, EC reconfigured it's table games, forming 3 pits, running parallel to Fremont Street, right up at the front (Fremont street entrance) of the casino. This resulted in more total table games, although one of the pits is rarely open.

So this resulted in several more blackjack games including the 2 DD games specified. These two new DD tables are brand new, or were 3-4 months ago, with brand new felt. And outfitted with the newer model ASM, different that the older ASM in use at EC for years and still in use at other tables.

So it isn't "funny" that it is or was only two tables. That is the reasoning. They expanded, opening two new DD tables and leased 2 new (newer model) ASM's.

[monet]

The statements below seem to be in direct conflict.

Can both be telling the truth?

I have played El Cortez regularly for years, meaning multiple times per week. Hundreds of sessions per year. And my results have been that every year, EC has been among my best individual casinos, usually top 2. Combined for the last 8 years, EC is my number 1 money maker.

This Casino watches and counts along with every BJ Player they have. If they think a BJ player is counting or just playing Basic Strategy they flat bet them or tell them they can't play BJ anymore.

I agree they certainly do look like they are in direct conflict with one another.
You can go through the whole Bible and pick and choose verses and pit them against one another as well.

kewlJ and others like him have to be the best at what they do if they are going to survive for years at the El Cortel.
I suppose with kewlJ's tactic of hit and run holds merit but those guys are pretty good at foiling AP or AP action.
I can't imagine playing green or black chips over there without heat but anything is possible.
I am not always right and I could be wrong. I suppose if you weave in and out on busy times and run away after + counts you might survive forever.

I have played in the bi monthly BJ tournament over there for years along with the Slot Tournaments.
A long time friend has played them for over 20 years and gets his picture with the big check when he gets in the top 3.
I always refuse to have my picture taken.
My point was I have heard the Floor joke about people counting in the BJ tournament and joke about flat betting them.
These are the same people that have worked there for years upon years.
The Host is basically the only Host and the other guy in that office runs tournaments as well and helps with comps when the host isn't around.
The Slot Manager at that place has his own shift in the pit. He used to work on grave but after promoted he moved to swing and he knows pretty much everyone and everything in that place...
it is tough to imagine he doesn't know who kewlJ is even if kewlJ is weaving in and out of that place never playing with a card or ID. Possible but not the norm by far at the El Cortel.

It is pretty funny that the El Cortel would decide to cheat on only 2 games in the place and that those games are 6:5 BJ right?

Those games are NOT 6:5. I don't play 6:5. These are 3:2 blackjack with very good rules. The best in Vegas outside high limit rooms.

And BTW, here is what happened. About 3-4 months ago, EC reconfigured it's table games, forming 3 pits, running parallel to Fremont Street, right up at the front (Fremont street entrance) of the casino. This resulted in more total table games, although one of the pits is rarely open.

So this resulted in several more blackjack games including the 2 DD games specified. These two new DD tables are brand new, or were 3-4 months ago, with brand new felt. And outfitted with the newer model ASM, different that the older ASM in use at EC for years and still in use at other tables.

So it isn't "funny" that it is or was only two tables. That is the reasoning. They expanded, opening two new DD tables and leased 2 new (newer model) ASM's.

No Worries... I am not disputing it. I am just saying this place is one tough place for even mid level play and I know the place well.
If you say you have figured out that they are cheating beyond a shadow of a doubt with evidence I am not one to go against it.

It really doesn't pertain or matter to me or my way of thinking because I am either stealing or cheating in another method and I don't care if the Casino cheats because the whole system is set up to cheat or to steal.
That is just the way the playground is set up.

Say Hello to "Nords" next time you are down there for me!

[Moses]

My friend used to say there is no wrath worse than that of a jealous husband who learns he's been cheated. However, crapping in an APs Honey Pot certainly runs a close second. I've seen APs get pissed just because someone joined their table. Countless posts have been made about courtesy to give the AP the right of way and/or how to get ploppies to leave a table. KJ is like woman. I don't mean that in a negative way. But he is bound to do this regardless of the ramifications direct and indirect not only to himself but other APs. Has anyone ever won an argument with a woman? I have not.

No one is talking him out it. And he can't see that he is putting himself on an island. He'll have no friends which obviously are so very important to him. APs will be in his face and he will get outed at other casinos. Of course, none of this will be his fault. The only thing that surprises me is the wrath hasn't already started.

There will be those that think they lost something or KJ took it away. To them, it won't matter if they had it in the first place or not. Right now, some are applauding and making him feel as though he is a Savior or a hero. When it's all said and done, they will turn against him and others will demand to know why he took away their income. Whether it's true or not? It's won't matter because it's what they believe. It won't be a nicey nicey thing. I've seen it before quite often.

KJ and Ryemo are very dangerous with all their bragging and perceived do-gooding. Innocent people get hurt financially, or worse, because they buy into the dream and don't know any better. Some will see it as selfless. They will forget. Others will see it as selfish. They WON'T forget.

[monet]

My friend used to say there is no wrath worse than that of a jealous husband who learns he's been cheated. However, crapping in an APs Honey Pot certainly runs a close second. I've seen APs get pissed just because someone joined their table. Countless posts have been made about courtesy to give the AP the right of way and/or how to get ploppies to leave a table. KJ is like woman. I don't mean that in a negative way. But he is bound to do this regardless of the ramifications direct and indirect not only to himself but other APs. Has anyone ever won an argument with a woman? I have not.

No one is talking him out it. And he can't see that he is putting himself on an island. He'll have no friends which obviously are so very important to him. APs will be in his face and he will get outed at other casinos. Of course, none of this will be his fault. The only thing that surprises me is the wrath hasn't already started.

There will be those that think they lost something or KJ took it away. To them, it won't matter if they had it in the first place or not. Right now, some are applauding and making him feel as though he is a Savior or a hero. When it's all said and done, they will turn against him and others will demand to know why he took away their incoem. Whether it's true or not? It's won't matter because it's what they believe. It won't be a nicey nicey thing. I've seen it before quite often.

KJ and Ryemo are very dangerous with all their bragging and perceived do-gooding. Innocent people get hurt financially, or worse, because they buy into the dream and don't know any better. Some will see it as selfless. They will forget. Others will see it as selfish. They WON'T forget.

You forgot RS and his goodie goodie circle of friends who are on the Earth to help and lift up one another.
These Mother Fuckers are the Honest APs who put all the money in one big honey pot and grow bigger and stronger each day.
After they make the millions upon millions from the Evil Empires they go out like Robin Hood and spread the wealth to their neighbors.
This is why they have to eat cans of Tuna Fish bought at the 99 cent stores.

[kewlJ]

I can't imagine playing green or black chips over there without heat but anything is possible.

I shouldn't comment on this at all, but will and will keep it very short. You can't play black at EC. That is why higher limit players don't play there. You can spread green, even to "chunky green", if you get my drift, for short periods, short sessions. The first time they attempt to pay in black say no. Throw in a comment about luck or some stupid thing.

This level is a little below my normal playing level, but close enough that the better rules, good conditions or usually heads up or 1 other player and higher win rate make it still a good opportunity for me.

This is just a personal feeling, but I actually think a player spreading light green, especially with one little trick, can last far longer than a player spreading $5-$20 robotically.

I suppose with kewlJ's tactic of hit and run holds merit but those guys are pretty good at foiling AP or AP action.
I can't imagine playing green or black chips over there without heat but anything is possible.

Funny thing and I can't explain it. The game plan that I have developed specifically for EC and has proven worthwhile for a number of years fails miserably at South Point. South point owned by the same family with very similar mentality. They back off everyone varying wagers whether you are counting or not. I can't get more than about 2 minutes play in at SP, so I have stopped trying.

A lot of people think EC is the sweatiest shop in Vegas. I think SP is. And probably one small dump in Henderson is my number #2.