Tipping

[kewlJ]

I have been around forums for a while now. I think I started on forums my 3rd year into my career, so that would be 13 years now. I have seen literally hundreds (plural) of discussions on this topic. And always there is some casino personnel making precisely the arguments that bob21 is making here. I mean down to the very words! And it always includes that AP's contribute nothing to society. Must be some sort of casino personnel/anti AP manual. Ah where can I find this manual bob21? Do they give it out when you start work for the casino?

Bob21, you told that heartbreaking story of the nasty, young, white, male card counter that stiffed 3 African American, female dealers. Odd that you felt the need to include race and sex, but you wanted to go all out didn't you. Nasty contribute nothing to society...what is your word...parasite? And specify white suppressing blacks, male bullying and dominating females. You went all out on this one didn't you bob21?

So let me ask you this, had this priveledged, nasty young white, male card counter tipped say...$25 per black, female dealer would he have been allowed to continue to play? I mean that seems to be the under tone of your story. He didn't tip so he was shown the door.

Now of course you have no clue about any of the circumstances involved. Suppose this player had lost say...$29,000 in the previous week and was just beginning to recoup his underfunded bankroll. Perhaps he didn't care for the attitude of the black, female dealers. All you know is that he won money, so he who took all the risk, is under some obligation to share that money with casino employees who took none of the risk. I mean that seems like some sort of casino tax or cover charge to me.

When people cash their paychecks, are people with bigger paychecks required to share some of those earnings with the teller cashing their check? Why not? Why don't bank tellers have a tip jar sitting out there? Why don't the cashiers at grocery stores have a tip jar? Maybe a sign that says I am unskilled and work a low paying job....tips appreciated. Maybe the trashmen, could duck tape a big old trash can to the side of the trash truck and in magic marker write "tips". Should we jump up when we see the mailman coming and run out and tip him?

The answer to these questions is no because that is not how this works. These are business and part of the cost of doing business for an owner is to compensate his employees. I'll bet the postal service and the trash company would love to pay employees minimum wage and let the customers make up the difference in tips.

The casino business is not entertainment, it is gambling. There are games of chance, each and every one set up with a house advantage. THAT is the business model. That is the profit. They are supposed to take that profit and pay expenses, including employees....just like every other business. Instead they have somehow decides somewhere along the line that those that are successful at these games of chance, by completely legal means should foot the bill for paying employees, so that the casino owners and CEO's like Sheldon Adelson, Steve Wynn, Trump at one time, can get richer.

So bob21, if you are unhappy with your salary as a casino employee, go talk to the fat cat that runs your casino or corporation, but you or the 3 poor suppressed black, females dealers aren't entitled to a portion of my winnings that I took all the risks for....that I have had 10 figure losing days for...29k losing weeks for. You aren't entitled to shit. Hers's what you can do though. You can shut your fucking mouth and quit bitching about your poor decisions and choose a different path. Or you can shut your fucking mouth and deal the cards before some robot or video screen dealer does away with you meaningless job.

[MaxPen]

Waiters/Waitresses might make $2.15/ho. It is generally understood that they will rely on tips to achieve an above minimum wage compensation. As far as I know, casino personnel make at least minimum wage.

While not an AP, this is a simple reason why individuals tip a waiter/waitress and not another individual.

I coach HS basketball with a recently retired postman. He believes in tips. I do not believe in tips for federal employees. He asked if my mail deliveries were altered. I replied, like I care. UPS, Fed Ex, and Amazon delivers to my doorstep without requesting a tip. I know it will arrive on a certain date. Mail does not matter unless it is a timely bill.

I understand those who will tip, based on enhancing their situation.

This is no different than a professional expecting a significant part of their income on a Christmas bonus. The individual agreed to that income. Extra money is not guaranteed.

What bothers me the most is that I agree with Kewj and Rob. My statistics imply that I will eventually end up in a menage a trois in a RV. Not pleased.

All food service on the strip makes at least minimum wage. They are all culinary union. Off strip they are not, in all places. In Stations buffets they are culinary though.

[kewlJ]

.

This is no different than a professional expecting a significant part of their income on a Christmas bonus. The individual agreed to that income. Extra money is not guaranteed.

I think what they are entitled to is membership into the jelly of the month club.

As a matter of fact, my new "tip" for dealers will be telling them that I have made a donation in their name to George Costanza's Human Fund.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...C180&FORM=VIRE

[kewlJ]

What I have been sharing tonight is my personal view about tipping. I do not feel I am obligated to share my winnings with a dealer. I do not feel the dealer is entitled to a share of my winnings.

But in actuality, I do tip dealers much more than I think they deserve. I recycle over and mis-payments back to dealers. Never to the dealer that made the error (see jbjb's post for reasoning), and while I don't write anything down, I am confident I give all mis-payments back. And this is a fairly significant amount because it happens more than people think. Most players (especially non-AP's) don't even recognize half the mis-payments. But in their case it probably evens out because just as many, if not more mis-payments are in favor of the casino. That doesn't happen with me. I correct most shorts and mis-payments in favor of the housebut accept most mis-payments in my favor.

I have a legitimate reason for handling it this way. Correcting mis-payments often draws attention. If it is a small minimum type bet of $25 or $50 an immediate correction, while cards are still on the table is usually handled pretty quietly. But larger payments and any correction not done immediately, almost always involves a pit person and that is extra attention. I will accept that extra attention for most shorts because I am not going to allow the casino to cheat me, whether intentional or not. Razor thin edge and can't afford that. The reason I have specified "most" is that occasionally I will let a $25 or even $50 short go, if for some reason, I didn't catch it immediately and can correct it with just the dealer (while cards are still out). If the cards have to be backed up or a pit person involved, I will let such a small amount go, but rarely do I not catch it immediately.

Now in errors in my favor, I correct nothing. This may seem hypocritical, but why should "doing the right thing" and correcting an error in my favor, have the consequences of drawing extra attention. So while I don't correct those errors, I also don't feel good about keeping that money, so I return it at times and situations that are best for me.

I also have a funny little practice that I employ that when a dealer does make a mistake in my favor, I don't pick up the payment immediately as I normally do. I let it linger just a second or so longer, giving the dealer the opportunity to see the mistake and correct it, which he can usually do quietly at that point.

These "rules" and practices are all in the KJ card counter manual if anyone is so fortunate to get their hands on a copy.

[smurgerburger]

Deech-

I appreciate the sincerity of your argument but I believe dealers are deliberately paid below market wage for a job that requires non-subsidized training (i.e. dealer school), very little schedule flexibility, no criminal background, a reasonable amount of mental acuity, and customer service. I would put dealers on the level of something like secretaries as opposed to fast food workers.

I don't know what dealer wages actually are, probably the legal minimum. But having worked several minimum wage jobs in my youth I think dealers are a higher caliber of labor than most non-tipped minimum wage workers.

Personally I would prefer the whole tipping culture go away but until it does I can't escape the conclusion that a person who chooses not to tip but does accept the benefit of customarily tipped labor is freeloading.

[Alan Mendelson]

I agree with Bob21 that our society has made an unofficial rule about which jobs are tipping jobs and which are not.

But the rules have changed.

I remember when it was customary to tip the postal carrier at Christmas. I also am old enough to remember tipping the UPS delivery man.

From the first time I stepped into a casino in 1976 I was told to tip dealers... but only if you won.

The tipping rules are still changing. Now there are tipping jars at Starbucks. It wasn't that way in the beginning.

I go to a McDonald's here in Summerlin and the cashiers ask me if I want my change? If I don't I guess they keep it as a tip.

I was hospitalized with a sports injury when I was 14. I needed surgery. I distinctly remember my parents tipping the nurses. Who tips nurses now? More changes.

Do you still tip doormen in NYC who hail a cab for you? I don't know... last time I was in NYC it was maybe 1980. But you tip the guy who puts you into a cab outside of Caesars Palace.

[Bob21]

Deech-

I appreciate the sincerity of your argument but I believe dealers are deliberately paid below market wage for a job that requires non-subsidized training (i.e. dealer school), very little schedule flexibility, no criminal background, a reasonable amount of mental acuity, and customer service. I would put dealers on the level of something like secretaries as opposed to fast food workers.

I don't know what dealer wages actually are, probably the legal minimum. But having worked several minimum wage jobs in my youth I think dealers are a higher caliber of labor than most non-tipped minimum wage workers.

Personally I would prefer the whole tipping culture go away but until it does I can't escape the conclusion that a person who chooses not to tip but does accept the benefit of customarily tipped labor is freeloading.

I agree with this post. I’m not saying I like everything about our tipping culture either but it is what it is.

I like the system in Japan much better. I never need to worry about who to tip because I don’t tip anybody and nobody there expects a tip. The employer pays the entire salary of their employee.

As far as dealers in my area, they make below minimum wage just like servers. The majority of their wages is expected to be paid by customers. I don’t know why certain jobs are considered tip jobs and why some aren’t but dealers are definitely in the tip job category.

People have the right to NOT tip dealers, just as they have the right to NOT tip servers but they shouldn’t try to rationalize it with some convoluted argument. The argument that some don’t do it because they don’t want to be seen as being in collusion with the dealer is just plain silly.

If you’re NOT going to tip a person who is working a tip job at least admit that you’re not doing it because you’re cheap. Don’t try to make up some silly excuse that it’s because of some higher principle.

[RS__]

I don't buy the whole "They're just doing their job" when you're talking about dealers or slot dogs, but then say "they're providing a service" when talking about CWs and food servers. Everyone whom you'd tip is being paid for their job. Cocktail waitresses, dealers, food servers, etc. are all being paid to do their job. The only people that don't get paid (AFAIK) are strippers.

Of course, I'd never tip someone if I had good reason to believe they wouldn't be appreciative of it. Dealers are oftentimes in this category. A good one is if they make some dumbass remark about the tip, then say, "Oh shit, I didn't realize those were just white chips, here let me trade you I thought they were reds." then get the whites back and don't give 'em anything at all.

[Rob.Singer]

Deech-

I appreciate the sincerity of your argument but I believe dealers are deliberately paid below market wage for a job that requires non-subsidized training (i.e. dealer school), very little schedule flexibility, no criminal background, a reasonable amount of mental acuity, and customer service. I would put dealers on the level of something like secretaries as opposed to fast food workers.

I don't know what dealer wages actually are, probably the legal minimum. But having worked several minimum wage jobs in my youth I think dealers are a higher caliber of labor than most non-tipped minimum wage workers.

Personally I would prefer the whole tipping culture go away but until it does I can't escape the conclusion that a person who chooses not to tip but does accept the benefit of customarily tipped labor is freeloading.

It's no one else's business, responsibility or concern what any dealer or mechanic makes, just as it's no one else's business, responsibility or concern what a person's dentist or accountant makes. Everyone is free to be happy with their pay or move on. It's their job, not our's, to ensure they're earning what they feel they should. That's what a free society within capitalism is all about.

What some of you are talking about when it comes to tipping people in jobs where you did not ask them for any particular service just because you don't think they make a "fair wage" is the same losing platform this moronic, bigmouth socialist AOC keeps spewing about.

[MaxPen]

It's no one else's business, responsibility or concern what any dealer or mechanic makes, just as it's no one else's business, responsibility or concern what a person's dentist or accountant makes. Everyone is free to be happy with their pay or move on. It's their job, not our's, to ensure they're earning what they feel they should. That's what a free society within capitalism is all about.

What some of you are talking about when it comes to tipping people in jobs where you did not ask them for any particular service just because you don't think they make a "fair wage" is the same losing platform this moronic, bigmouth socialist AOC keeps spewing about.

You're just mad because you were 86'ed from welfare.

[Alan Mendelson]

The statistic I saw is that Strip dealers earn on average $110,000 a year plus they have benefits. Is that still accurate and how does that compare with the annual income of the AVERAGE professional gambler?

That might explain why "APs" are anti tipping... their income is too low.

[blackhole]

What if Walmart decided they would pay workers $2 and hour and customer tips should make up the difference? That's what this feels like to me.

You just can't help being the idiot that comes up with extreme comparisons. This is why no one believes your fairy tale black jack stories. After 15 years of playing BJ in Vegas, regardless of what your rotation is, you've been seen enough by everyone to be recognized. You never present a card when asked which should be every tine you sit down, you hit and run obvious with profits most of the time to have netted over a million dollars. On top of it you never tip the dealers. They might not know your name but would have to at least say to themselves "here comes that hit and run cheap skumbag again." It's hard to believe after 15 years of action not one pit boss took it to the next level.

After 15 years of this behavior day after day, year after year, they still don't know who you really are. Do you realize even a little bit how dumb you appear to everyone except your cliche friends?

Sorry KJ, but your stories are to far fetched for common sense.

[jbjb]

The only dumb one here is you TardHole.

[Alan Mendelson]

The only dumb one here is you TardHole.

Can't you say anything constructive?

[jbjb]

The only dumb one here is you TardHole.

Can't you say anything constructive?

Why should I? The retards won't believe it anyway.

[redietz]

I'm not going to commit to much of an opinion on a subjective topic. But some things to consider:

1) If you disapprove of the "mission" of casinos in any way, should you prop up their business model by tipping? If you disapprove of some elements of the mission of casinos, and approve of others, should you tip just when involved with the "approved" elements? For example, if you think the gambling element is exploitative and in service of creating an addiction, why not stress the casino business model by not tipping those elements? But tip the show or food elements if you approve of them.

2) Would you tip your drug dealer? Since machine gambling is proven to addict people, and the methods and theories are actually quite established, one should make a decision as to whether tipping something like that is good for the individual or for society as a whole.

3) How much is your locus of control interior versus exterior? How context-dependent is your behavior? If you're uncomfortable being the sole outlying non-tipper, why is that?

4) Are you pro-casino or anti-casino? Some APs consider being an advantage player who they are, so they are dependent on casinos existing. But does that mean they'd prefer a world with casinos? Since when did self-interest become a guiding principle of how to behave or what to support? Me, personally, I'd prefer a world with zero casinos and all club sports played by a large percentage of the population. I do not prefer a world with casinos and professional sports. So I'm good with the ending of Stephen King's The Stand. But that's just me.

What do I do? I never tip dealers, but I almost never play table games. I will tip if I cash in a poker tournament. I don't tip hand pays. I certainly do not tip ticket writers at sports books. I tip the valets and servers and cocktail waitresses and doormen and bell personnel, and I tip them pretty well. All of that is subjective, and subject to a change of opinion.

I don't think APs should tip in their endeavor of choice unless, as Dancer says, he does it for leverage and information. It's not so much a question of "being cheap" as it is a question of massive volume.

[kewlJ]

The only dumb one here is you TardHole.

Can't you say anything constructive?

Funny that you take issue with jbjb's comment but say nothing about the comments he was responding to by blackhole that were much less "constructive".

[kewlJ]

I don't buy the whole "They're just doing their job" when you're talking about dealers or slot dogs, but then say "they're providing a service" when talking about CWs and food servers. Everyone whom you'd tip is being paid for their job. Cocktail waitresses, dealers, food servers, etc. are all being paid to do their job. The only people that don't get paid (AFAIK) are strippers.

Of course, I'd never tip someone if I had good reason to believe they wouldn't be appreciative of it. Dealers are oftentimes in this category. A good one is if they make some dumbass remark about the tip, then say, "Oh shit, I didn't realize those were just white chips, here let me trade you I thought they were reds." then get the whites back and don't give 'em anything at all.

Well, you ARE a former dealer RS. So it is not surprising you still have a little pro-dealer attitude about tipping. If I remember from a few years ago, you are getting a little better though. Maybe another 5 years and you will be with the rest of us non-tippers.

I am sure that "let me tip you red and then NOT" trick goes over well. You do know the object is to not do anything that makes out stand out as far as memory right?

But your point is valid. One time when I tipped a couple white chips (bet for the dealer), I had a dealer say "thanks now I can buy a newspaper".

Dealers have a set amount in their mind that they THINK you should tip them. If you are betting $50-$100 range they think you should be betting red for them, especially after a few wins or a blackjack. If you are betting $400-$500 range, they think it should be green. If you bet less than these amounts, they don't appreciate it and let you know, even if you don't say so.

This entitlement attitude to a percentage is what really turned me off quite a while ago. First why would they be "entitled" to more from players betting more. They are turning over the cards. If that is worthy of a tip it is a couple white chips bet every so often. Hell a few white chips bet from every customer would amount to $30/hr with table turnover. Plus their base salary. But they really are not satisfied with that amount from players playing green or above. And Las Vegas is the worse. Far more tip hustlers and dealers 'expecting' more.

And for anyone making the argument that dealers are part of the fun and entertainment value. NOT my experience! If anything I should be getting the tip from the dealer for sitting there playing therapist while they tell me all their problems and complaints.

[blackhole]

Funny that you take issue with jbjb's comment but say nothing about the comments he was responding to by blackhole that were much less "constructive".

Something to listen to while printing your next fairy tale.

[kewlJ]

Something to listen to while printing your next fairy tale.

Nobody cares what you think or say, you bitter, old fool! You are a ghost.