Request For Mickeycrimm

[kewlJ]

This play would not file under normal legit AP play. It's an advantage, yes. But its not like playing progressives, promotions, or machines that are over 100%. In terms you can understand, I would equate it with finding shuffle machines that you knew exactly when it was going to give you a blackjack. You could go around to multiple casinos and pick how much you wanted to make within reason.

Once given the information about this play you would be able to understand how and why it was a big advantage, if you found the opportunity, you would be able to do it as well.

Axelwolf, thank you for "dumbing" this down for me (with blackjack references), so that a lowly salamander might understand.

Here's what you are missing Axelwolf. I am not questioning that such a play existed. Nor that there was a huge advantage to any of you really smart machine AP's that discovered such a play and played it. What I am question is that Rob found this play, played it and won all the money he now claims from it. And the reason I question it is because Rob's story has now changed 180 degrees from which he has been claiming for 20 years....20 years!

Understand that when I came to this forum, which was the first time I encountered Rob Singer that I am aware of, had his claim been that he made a million dollars as a machine AP, playing a play that few know of, I would have never said a word. Even if he had left out the part about a play that few knew of and just said he made a million dollars as a machine AP, playing +EV situations. I would have had no comment. Just as I have never challenged that you, mickey, jbjb, Monet, RS_, and anyone else that I might be forgetting. Why would I? You are credible and the math works.

But that wasn't what Singer was claiming. He was claiming he made a million dollars plus, playing -EV video poker, but using progressive betting and stop limits to change a longterm expected loss (-EV game) to a longterm win (+EV), in this case a win of over a million dollars. Now before I even heard enough from him to decide if I found him credible, HIS MATH DOES NOT WORK! And that is what I challenged, just the same as you, mickey, Dan Druff challenged and I am sure many before this site, including Wizard when Singer was at WoV. The math of the claim that Rob made did not work.

As time went on and Singer was unable to explain his "alternate math" and gets defensive and nasty with anyone who challenges that the math to his claims didn't work, that is when the credibility issue came into play for me.

So now, after 20 years, of this claim, and all the attacks defending and deflecting, after he wrote books, did videos with Alan, claims that he personally taught many "students", he wants to do a 180 and say "forget everything I said for the last 20 year....this is how I really made my million dollars plus".

Well I am sorry, I don't find that credible. The play is credible. The information that he now has about the play may be credible. But I don't find Singer's 180 degree flip after 20 years credible. If you do, power to you. People can make that decision for themselves. You know my feeling on this. Members decide who they find credible and or not or as I frequently put it "who is just talking". Rob's flip of his previous 20 years claim to this new claim is just not credible to me. And I don't buy that the last 20 years, all the passionate defense of his claims, books, videos, was about protecting anything, because there was nothing to protect as long as he didn't mention it.

[smurgerburger]

Why do you guys care whether he was actually in on the play or not?

As forum scuttlebutt I get it, but some of you seem to have a personal investment in this. Degenerate gamblers find machine bugs. I don't know whether it's probable but it's certainly possible that he did and made a lot of money by it. It doesn't make him a master AP or anything (although again why would you care if it did?).

[Rob.Singer]

You're such a nervous little twit kew, worrying about this like a crazy mixed up old lady would.

You've as usual got you math wrong. I made $375k playing my strategy for 4 years, then just under $3million on this play over 5-1/2 years.

If you're gonna get all jumpy and bothered over this, at least get your numbers straight.

[redietz]

Why do you guys care whether he was actually in on the play or not?

As forum scuttlebutt I get it, but some of you seem to have a personal investment in this. Degenerate gamblers find machine bugs. I don't know whether it's probable but it's certainly possible that he did and made a lot of money by it. It doesn't make him a master AP or anything (although again why would you care if it did?).

I don't care if he was in on the play or not. To me, what "Singer" is alleging now (misleading those people who respected him for 20 years) is worse from an integrity standpoint than anything he's had to say in tens of thousands of posts. So I don't really have any much commentary because what he's saying is more incriminating than anything I could add.

I half expect him to post some additions along the way to make himself look better -- you, know, things like "Alan was in on the play and sworn to secrecy" or stuff like that. But then you'd have poor Alan required to back him up publicly. Not likely, I guess.

Do I think the whole thing is truth? It's too much of a riff on his old implying that he was in the CIA. Same kind of spin. But if it is true, it puts him in a worse light than anything I've ever said. So if this is his pitch for a "Singer legacy," more power to him. It's actually weird -- he's presenting himself as the ultimate slimeball to boost his image. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

It does give a peek at the underbelly of AP'ing, with some people willing to jump into bed with him (despite the sleaze) at the prospect of what? Learning something for extra shekels? Blackhole should have a field day with this.

[kewlJ]

You're such a nervous little twit kew, worrying about this like a crazy mixed up old lady would.

You've as usual got you math wrong. I made $375k playing my strategy for 4 years, then just under $3million on this play over 5-1/2 years.

If you're gonna get all jumpy and bothered over this, at least get your numbers straight.

How can I get the numbers straight when these numbers are forever changing? I mean these numbers posted are numbers never before mentioned. . I think for my first 18 months on this forum, the number you frequently used in your claim was just under a million dollars won total. About 6 months ago that figure jumped to the 1.5 million dollar neighborhood. And now, you are north of 3.3 million.

This, however is nothing new with you, Mr Argentino. You have done the exact same thing with the value of your RV/Mobile home. I think the number you claim to have paid has more than doubled over the last 6 months.

And this sir, goes exactly to the credibility issue that I am talking about. You are all over the place and have ZERO credibility in my opinion.

[kewlJ]

It does give a peek at the underbelly of AP'ing, with some people willing to jump into bed with him (despite the sleaze) at the prospect of what? Learning something for extra shekels? Blackhole should have a field day with this.

If you are talking about Axelwolf with the jumping into bed comment, that is not the way I read it at all. Rob mentions a play from the past and the math behind a play from the past and Axelwolf confirms that. Confirms that the math would have allowed for the kind of money that Rob is claiming over such a period of time. Although that in true Rob Singer fashion, that number has jumped considerably in the last 10 minutes.

So for the first time ever, the math works as far as one of Rob's claims. That doesn't mean that the claim is proven. It certainly hasn't been. And I am not asking for any proof. I never do. If Rob wants to provide proof, he certainly should have casino and tax forms available to do so. He has already laid the ground work for that saying he doesn't have them.

So we are back to the same old thing....credibility. I have told you I don't find this credible. I don't believe Axelwolf or Mickey have weighed in whether they find this claim credible based on Rob's history or nearly every thing he says turning out to be untrue or exaggerated. Perhaps they don't want to publicly say whether they find him credible. That too is their right. But let's not conflate the two things. Because the play was real and Rob knows about and has information on the play now, after the fact, doe not validate Rob's claim that he executed that play to the tune.....NOW of 3 million dollars.

[Rob.Singer]

Here's a point that will drive someone like kew berserk: it is more than entirely possible that I was the ONLY one taking advantage of this play for all those years.

[kewlJ]

Here's a point that will drive someone like kew berserk: it is more than entirely possible that I was the ONLY one taking advantage of this play for all those years.

Proving once again, you have no clue what I am about.

If you found a play and make money from it, I would be happy for you, even though you are a nasty person who I don't care for.

If you were the only player to have discovered and won at this play, I would be happy for you and impressed.

I just don't personally believe either of those situations occurred. And I don't believe it based on the claims you made during the time I have interacted with you and as it turns out for 20 years prior. I based my challenge to your claims on the mathematical impossibility based on what you said. If it was a 20 year elaborate lie, well then that is on you.

But I am just not buying that. I am not buying your ever changing stories. Credibility sir, you have zero based on your history.

We have a guy who couldn't pay his rent, has evictions and judgements against him, filed for bankruptcy, the food stamp fraud (since removed), and yet you want us to believe this fellow made 3 million on an AP play that no one else knew about. Nope these pieces don't fit for me. These are just more Singer tales from the trailer park as far as I am concerned.

I am sorry if late in your life, and having health issues (and I am not talking about a broken foot) you have this desire to change your image from the clown making mathematical impossible claims for 20 years, to this great machine AP, who discovers plays that all the other great machine AP's couldn't find, with a little dash of James Bond "it was all a deception" thrown in. I'm not buying it. Maybe others will. That's up to them.

[kewlJ]

One of the ways I can spot the real AP's on these forums is they are about making money. Nothing else. While AP's are naturally in competition with each other, fighting over opportunities, and forced to keep opportunities and good conditions to themselves, they rarely have the need to prove they are better than the next guy. Real AP's just wants to do the best they can and get their money.

Now the 'posers' all have this need to prove they are better than everyone else, just as you always do. The blackjack fraud, T3 on another forum, exactly the same thing. The guy up in Reno playing blackjack for nickel stakes the same thing. Challenging everyone. Trying to prove he is better.

In your case Rob, it became very evident that you are extremely jealous of Mickeycrimm. That people on this forum know he is the real deal who knew what he was talking about and that you were the guy that was just talking. It was plain to see how that infuriated you, which is why you attempted to belittled him every chance you got with things like his drinking, his education. All that crap did was expose you, your insecurities and who you are (or aren't in the case of an AP).

And the final straw: Mickey's appearances on GWAE. Seeing how well received he was not just on this forum, but throughout the entire AP community drove you absolutely bonkers. That is when you first came up with this failed 200k jackpot picture and when that didn't work followed up with this whole "don't believe what I have said for the last 20 years, but instead I am the greatest AP that ever lived" bullshit.

Your 70 years old now Mr Argentino, time to give up this fiasco. Focus on your health and trying to enjoy your remaining time.

[Rob.Singer]

Your continuing never-ending postings about me that are filled with nothing but lies, only shows the amount of jealous animosity your obsession over me has. When you did not see axel call me the confirmed liar you pretend that I am, it was all you could do not to lose it in front of your peers.

I spoke to mickey for over an hour today.

Your make believe internet world has already crumbled. Stop embarrassing yourself before you take the final drastic step.

[kewlJ]

I spoke to mickey for over an hour today.

I am aware that you spoke with Mickey today. What is your point. That proves Mickey is a decent human being who took the high road.

You spoke to Mickey because you NEED Mickey now. You want that same platform, GWAE to try to convince a bigger audience of your new claim of the greatest AP. You can't do that without Mickey and others putting in a good word for you. You know why you can't do that? Because your reputation precedes you. Munchkin and Dancer are some of the many in the AP community that have decided for themselves that you are not credible...that you are the guy "just talking".

You are begging to go on GWAE and you need people like Mickey to make that happen. And if you pull that off, you will probably be the first guest that literally begged to go on the show. I was asked twice, turned down the offers. Mickey was asked and has been on twice. And I am reasonably sure everyone else who has been on was asked. I highly doubt anyone went begging for that platform like you are doing. "please, please, put me on the show. I am the greatest AP ever. Don't believe everything else I have said for the last 20 years". This is some real impressive 'last hurrah' you are creating or trying to create.

But I will leave you to it. I am not going to try to burst your bubble any more. You do a good enough job of that. And if you do get on, I think you will just further embarrass yourself. But have at it, Rob.

[mickeycrimm]

Well, I did have a long talk with Rob today....and I have to say with a completely unbiased opinion, that Rob's story is very credible. I think he stumbled onto this play completely on his own. And I think he did make the almost 3 million he told me he made. He couldn't help but make money on the play. It would be a huge cash cow for anyone that knew how to do it. It is so extremely rare that I only know of one case of anyone doing anything similar and that was many years ago.

I can't elaborate but Rob told me something about the play that only he would know. And axel alluded to a friend who remembers something about the play. It has to do with the process of the play. I think axel's friend who has information about the play thinks it worked one way while Rob says it worked another way. I think this is due to some disinformation that was put out years ago. Rob told me about this disinformation before axel made his post explaining about his friend that had information on the play. As far as I'm concerned this gives Rob a ton more credibility.

It is highly likely that Rob was the first to discover and work the play. In talking with Rob I fully understand why he waited until now to talk about what he was doing. I understand why he kept the charade up for all these years. He had a very good reason.

Maybe one of these days the whole story will come out. If and/or when it happens it will be one of the biggest stories to ever hit the professional video poker world. And that is simply because it was ROB SINGER that found it. Rob's trolling of the professional video poker world, and his ability to get under their skin, have caused many to loathe him. That's the irony of this story. When professional video poker players everywhere find out what Rob was really doing, and the money he made, they are going to be SHOCKED!!.

It is not up to me to expose the story. That's up to Rob and I promised I wouldn't divulge the information before him.

[kewlJ]

That's interesting Mickey. Between you and Axel, who I have great respect for both as far as your machine AP skill and knowledge, I guess I will concede that it looks like Rob may have found this play and made a lot of money playing it. Congratulations Rob. I truly am always happy when a player beats the casino by legal and fair means.

But it still doesn't change the fact that what I and other challenged Rob on was his insistence of his phony claim about his phony "system" that made what he claimed was a million dollars using progressive wagering and stop limits to change a negative EV game into a longterm winner and that remains mathematically impossible. And the fact remains that this phony claim and all the insistence mislead players, slingshot on this site and surely many others, lurkers and such. The fact remains that there was no need for this charade. He need not mislead anyone with these phony claims in order to protect this play. All he had to do was not talk about it.

Furthermore, all the nastiness, name calling, personal attacks, attacks on spouses that has passed. None of that was necessary or served a purpose. That was Rob being a nasty shit of a human being.

[Rob.Singer]

Look kew, when are you going to acknowledge what I've been saying about my successful play strategy and get off your fake news story that it was "phony" and I "mislead" anyone about the merits of playing it, just because I played it for 4 years profitably instead of 10? And I still train players on it. There is no charade when it comes to my strategy.

You're confusing the SPS success with the way I chose to go forward after finding and playing something much better. My weekly Undeniable Truth column in Gaming Today was in its popular prime when this discovery was made, and since my strategy was successful I chose to keep that storyline going rather than quit writing, or making the world's most stupid decision and ignore the other far more profitable play. No one was deceived to the point of being harmed in any way. And, both my books were written and published during those first 4 years of playing professionally.

As far as the nastiness etc., I came into this arena in 2000 fully expecting and prepared to be attacked both personally and professionally for my position on APing (at the time, after 6 years of failure) as well as my new approach to playing. Just like clockwork, it occurred, and it continued in every conceivable form of media. But what these people weren't aware of is they were going up against the best preparation in the business when it comes to insults and retaliatory personal attacks.

Yet, that is really not me....I am completely the opposite in my real life. Think about it: I've been married over 40 years. I've never had trouble with the law or been arrested. I have great children and grandchildren. Our son is a true Wounded Warrior. And I've held very responsible positions in my work career. It should be obvious that my online personality is far from the real me.

That said, because this very lucrative play required complete silence and discipline in order to remain active for as long as it did, any human being would be hard pressed not to allow all that bottled up anxiety about not being able to talk to anyone about it, to let off all that steam in some other way. My way has been to battle people about basically anything online. I've developed quite the talent for it, right?

I know people despise me for this and that, and they're always looking me up just to find flaws to rip me for because of it. Well, some people aren't going to like this, but because I was winning so much from the casinos along with our healthy retirement accounts which have only grown thanks to the great Donald Trump and credit was no longer necessary, I purposely wrecked our credit by stiffing certain creditors at strategic intervals. Everything I've done had a reason. Buying homes for cash in our children's names was done for a purpose. (unrelated, our 1996 bankruptcy was real and it was profitable also). But there were never any of those evictions, food stamps, welfare fraud, or anything of the sort. And know this: we are not wealthy, just comfortable retirees who've both worked hard our entire lives. I got lucky with video poker, but it took a lot of work. I didn't really stumble across this play. I worked hard at looking for something like this for four years.

After this post I won't be talking about any of this stuff anymore, regardless what's said. My reason for waiting until 2019 to finally get this silence and reasons for my decades-long forums' disruptions and mis-directions act off my chest, are sooo valid, and it is a very big personal relief. mickey understood that today. In fact, I'm glad I got to talk to him and we'll probably chat more in the future. I do regret his being a regular target of my performance but I don't apologize for it. He would think I'm a wimp if I did.

There will be no more comments from me on any of this. It's likely the entire story of the play will come out somewhere somehow sometime. Just remember who I really am and why I've done what I did when it's discussed. There'll still be the haters here and there who'll claim all sorts of stuff. So be it.

[quahaug]

If the play is over and the statute of limitations doesn't apply why not just explain what it is?

[Rob.Singer]

If the play is over and the statute of limitations doesn't apply why not just explain what it is?

(This is a valid question and I should have brought this up in my last post)

I am a very structured, very careful person. I took every precaution when playing this and I waited 10 years because I don't really know what Fed., Az., and Nv. statutes are for something like this, but I know it's not MORE than 10 years. I also know it was not a crime. But knowing how things work and how anxious-to-destroy and vindictive people are, I needed to be 100% sure.

I may well publicly talk some more about it in the future. Right now I have a broken foot waiting for surgery, and I have to face staying here in the heat at least 2/3 of the summer which I hate.

[quahaug]

If the play is over and the statute of limitations doesn't apply why not just explain what it is?

I am a very structured, very careful person. I took every precaution when playing this and I waited 10 years because I don't really know what Fed., Az., and Nv. statutes are for something like this, but I know it's not MORE than 10 years. I also know it was not a crime. But knowing how things work and how anxious-to-destroy and vindictive people are, I needed to be 100% sure.

I may well publicly talk some more about it in the future. Right now I have a broken foot waiting for surgery, and I have to face staying here in the heat at least 2/3 of the summer which I hate.

At least it's a dry heat.

[pahrump pete]

Hey Rob,
I've always thought your insight on playing VP was incredible. And now this story is amazing!
If you're heading toward the setting sun, good luck. And Thank you.

[redietz]

So now "Rob Singer" is going to argue that he both executed a high end video poker play, and that his win goal, level-jumping martingaling "works." That, of course, depends on one's definition of what the word "works" means or what tense is applied to it. So back to square one with some additions. Rob has swapped hatred of AP'ing for expertise on a specific play, while trying to maintain that his voodoo video poker strategies worked (past tense). No argument there. Lotteries get won everyday. Will his voodoo work going forward? Nope.

Bear in mind that I have done summaries of the benefits of "playing like Rob" in the past. It tends, first of all, to reduce seat time, always a good thing on negative EV games, and it also creates a whacky profile that generates more offers from certain places. However, it will lose if you play enough hands, or if (in aggregate) you have a bunch of people playing it.

There's a built-in absurdity to "Singer's" argument that no one was harmed by using his systems. If he did indeed have the most read and influential column in Gaming Today, then literally hundreds and possibly thousands of people would have applied his concepts. In aggregate, they have lost. So how he can argue that "nobody got hurt" is beyond me.

And then there is the case of Alan Mendelson, an investigative reporter who publicized Rob's voodoo systems for thousands to view, but without the accompanying, "oh, by the way, this isn't really the way I made this money." You think this alleged reveal doesn't damage Mr. Mendelson's credibility even further?

And then we get to what is real from a communications standpoint. The tens of thousands of posts hyping a lie or the occasional hour-long after-the-fact conversation? Unfortunately, "Rob Singer" doesn't get to designate what is his real persona or what has had the most impact. That is up to others to decide. That is why it's called "communication." Because you're not talking to yourself.

Bad stuff. To those who lost money following Rob's systems that weren't really his modus operandi, or who were duped into publicizing them, or who were repeatedly attacked in thousands of posts by a persona "Rob Singer" claims isn't real, I recommend Exodus 34:7 "...visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and fourth generation."

[Rob.Singer]

Just. Plain. Weird.