Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

[Rob.Singer]

If you had done the research, you'd know that lifelong silence on something personally significant is not healthy for any human being.

But looking over your shoulder for 10 years, waiting for statute of limitations to expire IS a healthy way to live? ��

No wonder you live in a trailer / RV constantly on the run, moving from trailer park to someone driveway to trailer park. Always looking over your shoulder. THAT is one he'll of a way to live Singer.

Lunch break is over back to work. I'll tell you this much. I haven't made much money so far today, but I haven't done ANYTHING inside or outside the casino that will have me looking over my shoulder for the next 10 years waiting for statute of limitations to expire.

Typical, uneducated, haphazard response. Explain how ANY casino would wait more than 15 seconds to arrest someone they thought was cheating illegally. Your pretense that someone would ever be worried after being hand paid by casino personnel shows just how little experience you have dealing with casinos overall.

I'll take the continuing silly trailer park comment under consideration as I travel from home to home to home.

Admit it kew, your being the only one here to pretend you're offended by this is eating away at you. What? Rob Singer winning millions?? OMG! "I don't know whether to pee my pants over him profiting that much, or poop my pants because if he did then he isn't Cousin Eddy's step brother!!"
Hahahahaha.....as you are bewildered as ever! But don't let me distract you. Go ahead and keep sitting at the bj tables, winning and losing 20 bucks at a time. All the while, thinking of me going into casinos with a measly $5k,and walking out with $40k 45 minutes later....time after time after time.

[kewlJ]

Rob, I can't WAIT to address this post....but I am going to have to. I have dishes to wash and tables to bus or whatever it is I do for a living. Give me a couple hours. ��

[slingshot]

Just wondering, Rob. How did you develop the discipline to play your strategies? Was it just an instant determination after getting fed up with losing or did you develop a mindset over time. No One ever talks about this.

[jbjb]

Just wondering, Rob. How did you develop the discipline to play your strategies? Was it just an instant determination after getting fed up with losing or did you develop a mindset over time. No One ever talks about this.

Sling, stop being a sucker/shill for this clown. Wise Up!!

[Guy Incognito]

I'm glad this subject came up because there's a situation I was just thinking about.

There is a regular slot tournament where the same guy almost always comes in at/near the top. I've watched him play; he's not particularly quick (I'm quicker, IMO, and don't have nearly as good results). So I've concluded one of two things are going on: either he's figured something out (good for him) or he's gotten some inside information, possibly from someone working for the slot manufacturer? I'd consider the first scenario to be legal, but not the second. I'm still on the fence as to whether or not I should go to gaming (the casino is notorious for their laziness/apathy/DGAF attitude, so no help there), and if they would even be willing/able to do anything.

[Rob.Singer]

Just wondering, Rob. How did you develop the discipline to play your strategies? Was it just an instant determination after getting fed up with losing or did you develop a mindset over time. No One ever talks about this.

At the risk of getting jbjb further upset.....the discipline is something you bring to the game. It's not something you develop. Yes I was fed up with losing, which led to my strategy's development, and to my spending four years looking for the ultimate advantage in vp.

[Rob.Singer]

Rob, I can't WAIT to address this post....but I am going to have to. I have dishes to wash and tables to bus or whatever it is I do for a living. Give me a couple hours. ��

Translation: you need to take a deep breath and collect your silly thoughts before looking dumber than ever, frustrated, and overly obsessed again with whatever I get under your very thin skin with.

Get over it.

[smurgerburger]

Just wondering, Rob. How did you develop the discipline to play your strategies? Was it just an instant determination after getting fed up with losing or did you develop a mindset over time. No One ever talks about this.

You know it's entirely possible to just stop gambling?

[mickeycrimm]

So, three different examples. Three different outcomes. I'd say this VP Player is closest to Mr. Corriveau. He figured out a flaw in the game and took advantage of it. Unless he had insider information on it, I don't think that what he did was illegal. Maybe it could be considered a malfunction of the machine and the Casino could withhold payment. Then again, maybe it's the responsibility of the machine manufacturer to do design reviews and appropriate QA to prevent the release of a flawed gaming device.

My memory of the story (I wrote a long piece about it sometime back) is that he had the event happen at either Fremont or Binion's quite by accident the first time. After that, he actually bought a Game King unit of his own (or maybe it was he already had one) and pieced together what actually caused that to happen. The rest, as they say, is history. So are those units...but if not...I'm sure anybody that's found an unmodified one isn't going to be stupid enough to tell anyone about it.

It was at the Fremont. Kane got it to work once but couldn't figure out how to do it again. He brought Nestor in and Nestor figured it out.

[mcap]

Hole carding is not a grey area it’s been through courts over 30 years ago, clearly legal, and clearly not cheating as cheating has an illegal definition to it in regards to gaming. I think saying so is an attempt to impose your sense of ethics on others and exalt yourself above a group that tends to look down on card counters (unfairly looks down on, a bullshit ego trip mostly, many of them wouldn’t know the difference between their hand and their asshole if JG didn’t tell them)

Hyland says he has an ethical issue with holecarding too but has no problem going into businesses he knows he’s trespassed from for the sole purpose of trying to entice lawsuits, seems a bizarre viewpoint.

[mickeycrimm]

It's always been hard for prosecutors to get convictions on "thought crimes." How do you prove what is in someone's mind?

I knew a slot hustler that got caught putting 50 cent pieces in a dollar machine. He got a one dollar bet for 50 cents. They counted going in the machine but didn't count coming out. He told the judge "I'm not from here, your honor, I'm from New York. I seen it said one dollar a spin so I was putting two 50 cent pieces in to bet a dollar." The judge let him go.

[smurgerburger]

Edit, wrong message was quoted.

Has anyone laid out publicly how exactly the Nestor and Kane glitch works?

[kewlJ]

Ok so I am home from my day, and guess what? There is no one chasing me. I am not looking over my shoulder, nor counting down to some statute of limitations will expire, because what I do is completely legal.

Now let me just say, I have been voicing my opinion about Rob's new "claim". And I do know that most AP's probably aren't as much a stickler as me about what is legal and/or cheating and what isn't. It's all about money. And guess what, that is one reason you don't find me hanging out with many AP's. As a group they are a little "shady". If I were to attend some sort of meet up, which I recently had an interest in but things didn't work out, I would have to have one of those moercycle chains connecting my wallet to my belt with these folks and their mentality. But that is anothet story.

So I have shared my feelings about Rob's new claim, in no uncertain terms. For me THAT kind of thing is not APing....it's cheating to say the least, a crime to say the most. I have much more respect for a grinder type blackjack player grinding out 3/4 percent advantage card counting, or a video poker player grinding out 1/2 a percent advantage playing some slightly 100+ game than I do manipulating an error to pay a jackpot that you did not win or earn.

Now all that said, I still don't really beleive this latest chapter of Singer's Trailer Park Tails. First let me say of a claim of this magnitude, where are the "proofer"? You know the guys on this forum like coach belly that demand proof from every AP of every claim we make. They want w-2's and bank statemnets and so on and so forth. And here is Singer, making a claim of one mega size AP "caper" (for lack of a better term) and the "proofers are no where to be found. Crickets! How odd?

So while I have great respect for both Mickey and Axelwolf as far as their machine play knowledge and expertise, and both seem confident that Singer knew things that could only mean he did in fact participate in this play....I have questions. I mean I read an account of this incident with Kane and Nestor quite a while ago. And yesterday I came accross another account of the story, not the same one I read prior to this one in Wired Magazine or online service. So I am assuming Singer had more detail that was available in this story for Axel and Mickey to be convinced, but still who is to say how he got that infor? Perhaps he knew someone who recently shared info? Perhaps Singer spoke with Kane or Nestor directly? I asume they are alive. Why wouldn't they share details now. And then tall tales Singer can say "yeah you know that caper from 10 years ago where the guys got busted, well I found and played that for 6 full years before that making over 3 million". A little specific info to convince Mickey and Axel and a new round of Singer Folklore is born. Now let's get to this quote.

But don't let me distract you. Go ahead and keep sitting at the bj tables, winning and losing 20 bucks at a time. All the while, thinking of me going into casinos with a measly $5k,and walking out with $40k 45 minutes later....time after time after time.

So, how many times has Singer challenged my claim that I make 75-80k a year playing blackjack with a rotation of 30+ local casinos, and another 20 that I play part-time on trips and in surrounding states and areas. That's 50 casinos. That would be an Average of $1500 I take from each per year. And how many times have we heard Singer say in this day and age with technology and top surveillance, Casinos aren't going to let someone win regularly like this? I mean $1500 per casino per year!

Now look at his shocking claim. He walks in with $5k and walks out 45 minutes later with $40k. Time and Time again! He is telling me it is impossible to carefully grind $1500 per year per casino, yet he wants you to beleive he walks in wins $35k in 45 minutes time after time and Surveillance isn't noticing? (come on Dan Druff, we need a freaking rolling on the floor having a heart attack emoji).

Surveillance would be all over that the very first time! They would view that tape frame by frame and know exactly what he did to trigger these fraudulent payments that he wasn't entitled to. But No, The great Rob Singer wants us to believe that no one noticed and he executed this "play over and over and over for 6 years to the tune of 3 million dollars. This is just fantasy land. Trust me, there is no more "tricking" surveillance, the best you can do is play stakes that are tolerated, and spread your play around in the hopes that you are tolerated. Walking out with 35K wins in 45 minutes over and over, does not fall into that. THAT would be top priority, which is exactly why Kane and Nestor didn't last long. Yet Superman Rob once again, wants us all to believe he did the impossible.

I continue to think this is just another chapter in Rob's tall tales. And really, you could see this coming. Feeling irrelevent for a while now, he tried to seek the relevancy he desires with that 200k jackpot picture and when that failed, he came up with this grand tale. Piggybacking off of two guys that got busted. "well I did that for 6 years before they did and made 3 million".

That is what my gut tells me. So Axel and Mickey let me ask you again, Can you say with 100% certainty that Rob executed this play for 6 years making 3 million? Or is it just possible that he some how acquired info on the play, long after? Enough for you to find him credible?

[Mission146]

The machine says I am to receive $100, I know I am to receive $100, then the machine prints out a ticket that I know to be erroneous. I could be wrong, but I have almost no doubt that accepting such funds would be illegal.

Ok the $100 ticket/$10,000 wasn't the greatest example. The machine has a paytable. You hit a jackpot say at $1 that pays say 125 credits. That is 125 credits of the denomination that you were playing when you hit ($125). And you know that. If you somehow manipulate the machine to pay you 125 credits of a much higher denomination, say $10 denomination paying $1250, that you were not playing, are you really trying to say that's "ok"?

I mean obviously Rob thinks so. Or does he? If he did, then why wait until statute of limitations has expired?

That's not exactly an example, that's basically what the Kane play was. My understanding was they did not even necessarily have to hit the hands themselves if they found a machine with the hand already showing. I think that could be a bit of a shady area because you're not even gambling at that point.

I'll tell you this, I will say, "No, that is not okay." However, should I ever encounter such a situation...you're never going to hear from me again to call me a hypocrite because I'll be way too busy being rich.

[Rob.Singer]

Your first problem is your overly jealous, kew. Just look at how you are the only one whining about this when others have pm'd to congratulate or tell me how awesome this was. And you wouldn't BELIEVE who thet are. Don't ask--all you'll become is more unglued.

Your next problem is the level of your inability to comprehend the facts. When someone goes in and hits this play once, then leaves for another casino for another one-time per trip hit (if needed) there are more than enuf casinos around Nevada that have Game Kings multi-game/multi-denom to hit up for ten's of thousands in a one time pop or multiple visits over several months. With your inability to figure anything out for yourself, naturally you're gonna think a person working this play is gonna sit there hammering the same machine for hours--just like the guys who got caught. What you're showing is just another life-weakness. You have a very hard time making sense of just about everything you try to talk about. I'd have fired a brainless weasel like you if you had worked for me.

You're oozing with envy kew. And guess how great that feels..... But your most glaring issue is you just can't get over this unless you talk yourself into me and the others lying.

[Mission146]

I'm glad this subject came up because there's a situation I was just thinking about.

There is a regular slot tournament where the same guy almost always comes in at/near the top. I've watched him play; he's not particularly quick (I'm quicker, IMO, and don't have nearly as good results). So I've concluded one of two things are going on: either he's figured something out (good for him) or he's gotten some inside information, possibly from someone working for the slot manufacturer? I'd consider the first scenario to be legal, but not the second. I'm still on the fence as to whether or not I should go to gaming (the casino is notorious for their laziness/apathy/DGAF attitude, so no help there), and if they would even be willing/able to do anything.

Could be anything. I've played in one slot tournament where I felt I played advantageously compared to others and the reason is because there were special symbols that would appear on the screen (anywhere, not necessarily only in reel spots) that would award extra points if you tapped them. They would come and go pretty quickly, but making a new spin did not cause them to disappear. What's the answer? Don't stare at anything but the screen, hit the spin button with your right hand continuously and use your left hand to tap the extra points symbols.

Many other players were using their right hand to tap the symbols, which would cause them not to be spinning for that fraction of a second. Something as simple as that could make a difference.

[kewlJ]

Your first problem is your overly jealous, kew. Just look at how you are the only one whining about this when others have pm'd to congratulate or tell me how awesome this was. And you wouldn't BELIEVE who thet are. Don't ask--all you'll become is more unglued.

Your next problem is the level of your inability to comprehend the facts. When someone goes in and hits this play once, then leaves for another casino for another one-time per trip hit (if needed) there are more than enuf casinos around Nevada that have Game Kings multi-game/multi-denom to hit up for ten's of thousands in a one time pop or multiple visits over several months. With your inability to figure anything out for yourself, naturally you're gonna think a person working this play is gonna sit there hammering the same machine for hours--just like the guys who got caught. What you're showing is just another life-weakness. You have a very hard time making sense of just about everything you try to talk about. I'd have fired a brainless weasel like you if you had worked for me.

You're oozing with envy kew. And guess how great that feels..... But your most glaring issue is you just can't get over this unless you talk yourself into me and the others lying.

Doesn't matter if you hit it once and get up and leave not to return for a year. That play, the way you described it would be top priority and every second of your visit to that casino, every second of your play every button you pushed would be scrutinized frame by frame. You might get out of that casino, but they would know exactly what you were doing in a very short time and law enforcement would be immediately involved.

I am sure you have read the accounts of Kane and Nestor. The FBI freaking raided his houses! And they were at it a very short time. You are telling us you did this for 6 years unnoticed. BULLSHIT! This is NOT the kind of thing that goes unnoticed. This would be top priority. Surveillance Can read the date on a dime. They would see every single thing you did, every button you pushed.

But you go ahead Rob. You spin your tale. Go on GWAE and spin it to a larger audience if it is important to you. But I don't think it's true and I can tell by your response it isn't true. You have 20 years of this crap. This is just another chapter.

[Rob.Singer]

The machine says I am to receive $100, I know I am to receive $100, then the machine prints out a ticket that I know to be erroneous. I could be wrong, but I have almost no doubt that accepting such funds would be illegal.

Ok the $100 ticket/$10,000 wasn't the greatest example. The machine has a paytable. You hit a jackpot say at $1 that pays say 125 credits. That is 125 credits of the denomination that you were playing when you hit ($125). And you know that. If you somehow manipulate the machine to pay you 125 credits of a much higher denomination, say $10 denomination paying $1250, that you were not playing, are you really trying to say that's "ok"?

I mean obviously Rob thinks so. Or does he? If he did, then why wait until statute of limitations has expired?

That's not exactly an example, that's basically what the Kane play was. My understanding was they did not even necessarily have to hit the hands themselves if they found a machine with the hand already showing. I think that could be a bit of a shady area because you're not even gambling at that point.

I'll tell you this, I will say, "No, that is not okay." However, should I ever encounter such a situation...you're never going to hear from me again to call me a hypocrite because I'll be way too busy being rich.

Kane and friend were stupid degenerate gamblers who apparently think like kew does.

It is dead wrong to conjure up a top denom win out of a hand sitting on the machine when you sit down to play. It's also dead wrong to use any winner you hit more than once. I call those both stealing. However, if you are smart and diligent enuf to have found this play by constantly studying the machines, because you are not using some outside or mechanical influence and all you're doing is pushing buttons and feeding in bills, this is something very very special. I believe the case against the two bozos would have been dropped several years earlier if they only changed denoms on their own hands--and used them only once.

Also, there's an article out there somewhere from 2012/2013 that gives what they call step-by-step instructions. Those are incorrect. It's also quite possible that any of you could find machines that still have this flaw in them. I've found two since 2010 (pennies/nickels/dimes/quarters so they weren't worth playing to me) and I hardly go to casinos anymore. But just for fun these days I check whenever I can.

[Mission146]

Doesn't matter if you hit it once and get up and leave not to return for a year. That play, the way you described it would be top priority and every second of your visit to that casinos, every second of your play every button you pushed would be scrutinized frame by frame. You might get out of that casino, but they would know exactly what you were doing in a very short time and law enforcement would be immediately involved.

I am sure you have read the accounts of Kane and Nestor. The FBI freaking raided his house! And they were at it a very short time. You are telling us you did this for 6 years unnoticed. BULLSHIT! This is NOT the kind of thing that goes unnoticed. This would be top priority. Surveillance Can read the date on a dime. They would see every single thing you did, every button you pushed.

KewlJ,

Without making any claims as to the veracity of our good friend Mr. Singer's play, what I will say is that they (Kane/Nestor) did, in fact, trigger this event in several casinos including multiple times in the same casino before it was discovered. They did not know what they were doing in a very short time and law enforcement was not immediately involved. For his part, Nestor did this in multiple states.

Kane was initially caught when he did this twice in a high-limit room in a very short timeframe using the literal same exact hand. That's how lazy and arrogant he got with it. Do you know the probability of hitting the same paying hand with all the cards in the same positions within a half hour, or whatever it was? I don't know the exact answer, but I approximate it to be 1 in not real goddamn likely. After being warned by Kane, Nestor was still rolling into The Meadows with a freaking entourage and playing in the high-limit room. Kane was taking down huge jackpots in high limit rooms.

I know part of this somehow involved switching denominations and hitting buttons in a certain order. If it were me, at least I would like to think, I would just switch to $0.50 (if available) and take down $2,000 jackpots, or dollars on something like Double Double Bonus. You could play nickels (or whatever the lowest denomination on that unit was) and claim the hands at the higher values if they result in a handpay. I would sit there and just play it until I naturally hit the hand and then do whatever the gaffe was. After that, I would do some "Cover Play," for fifteen minutes or so playing properly at the denomination that won the jackpot and then onto the next casino.

It's enough of an advantage that you can clear more money in a day than most people could ever think of and nobody would ever suspect anything. You wouldn't hit a handpay more than once in a two month period at a given casino, at least, I wouldn't. You wouldn't stiff and you wouldn't tip huge. You would keep it modest, be polite and just in general try to be as unmemorable as possible.

Three words killed that play for them: Stupid, Greedy, Lazy.

[Rob.Singer]

Your first problem is your overly jealous, kew. Just look at how you are the only one whining about this when others have pm'd to congratulate or tell me how awesome this was. And you wouldn't BELIEVE who thet are. Don't ask--all you'll become is more unglued.

Your next problem is the level of your inability to comprehend the facts. When someone goes in and hits this play once, then leaves for another casino for another one-time per trip hit (if needed) there are more than enuf casinos around Nevada that have Game Kings multi-game/multi-denom to hit up for ten's of thousands in a one time pop or multiple visits over several months. With your inability to figure anything out for yourself, naturally you're gonna think a person working this play is gonna sit there hammering the same machine for hours--just like the guys who got caught. What you're showing is just another life-weakness. You have a very hard time making sense of just about everything you try to talk about. I'd have fired a brainless weasel like you if you had worked for me.

You're oozing with envy kew. And guess how great that feels..... But your most glaring issue is you just can't get over this unless you talk yourself into me and the others lying.

Doesn't matter if you hit it once and get up and leave not to return for a year. That play, the way you described it would be top priority and every second of your visit to that casino, every second of your play every button you pushed would be scrutinized frame by frame. You might get out of that casino, but they would know exactly what you were doing in a very short time and law enforcement would be immediately involved.

I am sure you have read the accounts of Kane and Nestor. The FBI freaking raided his houses! And they were at it a very short time. You are telling us you did this for 6 years unnoticed. BULLSHIT! This is NOT the kind of thing that goes unnoticed. This would be top priority. Surveillance Can read the date on a dime. They would see every single thing you did, every button you pushed.

But you go ahead Rob. You spin your tale. Go on GWAE and spin it to a larger audience if it is important to you. But I don't think it's true and I can tell by your response it isn't true. You have 20 years of this crap. This is just another chapter.

There's more of an "audience" here than in GWAE kew.

This is why you have nothing upstairs as you try so hard to pretend it just can't be. Your pal Kane got caught because he used the same winning hand twice within two hours, with a half dozen other jackpots sprinkled in-between. And from what I recall, this was a few days or a day after hitting up Wynn for a quarter million, using multiple hands multiple times, one of which was on the machine when he sat down.

Nestor OTOH also did what you would do--he went to the same casino back east somewhere and kept nailing them for over $150k, and it wasn't a big place from what I remember.

Here's a teachable moment. If you ever find this play, you want to establish a One & Done policy. You do not want to use a card, unless and until you hit jackpot over $5000. At that point, you put your card in and play at the machine's highest denomination to LOSE up to 10% of what you just won. Their system sees you as a W2G recipient, but then you started to give some back--just as they want. Then, you leave for a month.

No one sees what you're doing kew. No one watches unless you make them. You are just not a savvy enuf player to do anything like this, which is one of the main reasons why I call your bluff on all your posting nonsense.