Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

[jbjb]

Rob, give it a rest, will you?

I've argued over and over again with Rob about his system going back to 2006. Arci goes back to 2003 arguing with him about it. Lots of people have jumped in here and there with great arguments of why it doesn't work. vpFREE, LVA, Videopoker.com, WoV, Alanbestbuys and now Vegas Casino Talk. Rob has taken on all comers. I've argued and read the same great arguments against his system for 13 years. Rob has never given an inch. And he never will.

It's the typical MO of any hucksters.

If Rob truly won what he said he did, is because of simple variance. Nothing else. The longer he, or anyone applies it, the sooner it'll fail.

[jbjb]

Rob, give it a rest, will you?

I've argued over and over again with Rob about his system going back to 2006. Arci goes back to 2003 arguing with him about it. Lots of people have jumped in here and there with great arguments of why it doesn't work. vpFREE, LVA, Videopoker.com, WoV, Alanbestbuys and now Vegas Casino Talk. Rob has taken on all comers. I've argued and read the same great arguments against his system for 13 years. Rob has never given an inch. And he never will.

It's the typical MO of any hucksters.

If Rob truly won what he said he did, is because of simple variance. Nothing else. The longer he, or anyone applies it, the sooner it'll fail.

And if he really had "keys to the kingdom", why in earth would he waste time with millions of post, on a bunch of different message boards, under countless different sceen names, when he could just get wealthier than Jeff Bezos. And don't give me the "I'm retired" schtic. His hero Donald Trump is older and wealthier than Argentino and he sure as hell isn't retired. Face the facts. His whole "expert winning player" is a bogus made up lie.

[Dan Druff]

Advantage play, cheating, crime....where do you draw the line? Obviously the definition of advantage play is pretty simple. Playing with an advantage. By this definition even the most illegal things like capping bets, marking cards would be an advantage play. But I don't think any reasonable person or AP would consider it so. So where is the line?

Obviously except in the mind of the casino industry, things like card counting or vulturing machines, isn't cheating or illegal. And just as obvious things like marking cards and light wands are cheating and illegal. But what about the grey area in between. With table games things like hole-carding? Not illegal but is it cheating?

On the machine side, like I said, I don't think anyone outside the casino industry would consider vulturing cheating or illegal. And it is pretty clear that using a device like a lightwand or other electronic device to jam or alter the electronics is both cheating and illegal. But again what about the grey area in between?

What if a player discovers a glitch that allows for a higher payout or a payout of jackpot hands at a higher denomination than was actually played and won? Is this a legitimate advantage play? Is it cheating? Is it illegal? I mean, I guess technically the player hasn't done anything illegal. Maybe some legalese thing like knowingly accepting payment you weren't entitled to. I don't know.

One final question. Suppose someone is charged but the government can't make the case and ends up dropping the charges such as the Game King double up case. Was the act still illegal?

I am anxious to hear the views of all my fellow AP's especially you Rob Singer?

This is 31 pages and I'm only on the first page. I have to assume that there's a lot of crap in this thread, which I may or may not have time to delete, given that WSOP is starting for me in 2 days.

Anyway, here are my thoughts:

Obviously I think any form of true advantage play is totally fine.

I feel that blatant cheating -- such as using devices to give yourself and edge -- is wrong.

I feel that anything you can use your mind/senses to do (such as hole-carding) is also fine.

The toughest one to decide involves glitches in machines. There it's a true grey area, but here's my take on it:

- If you're being overcomped, it is fine. It is not up to the player to make sure he's being comped at a proper level. (At the same time, if the casino discovers the overcomping and corrects it, the player can't really cry foul.)

- If you find some misset paytable which makes a machine tremendously +EV, again it's fine. Again, it is not the player's responsibility to make sure paytables are set so odds are against him.

- If you find a glitch in a machine which makes it behave contrary to how it was intended, then I feel that's cheating and is wrong. An example was the Game King "double up" case. The guys busted for this deserved it. They were basically doing the same thing as repeatedly using an ATM which is overpaying. They're just lucky that the government was stupid and charged them with crimes which didn't apply to the case (lol computer hacking).

[BoSox]

Dan Druff wrote:

- If you find a glitch in a machine which makes it behave contrary to how it was intended, then I feel that's cheating and is wrong. An example was the Game King "double up" case. The guys busted for this deserved it. They were basically doing the same thing as repeatedly using an ATM which is overpaying. They're just lucky that the government was stupid and charged them with crimes which didn't apply to the case (lol computer hacking).


I could not agree more. If a case could not have been made by the government in that instance for intent to defraud something is definitely wrong. The government messed up the case big time. If that was not a clear case to defraud, I don't know what the hell is, and this goes way beyond when is a hand is over in video poker. Is there anyone else besides Dan and myself who thinks that the Game King play was unethical? I am not affraid to say that if I was aware of the play 10 to 15 years ago I do not think I would have would have had the balls "on what I consider cheating" to carry it through and would have passed on the play. Personally, over the years I have seen many, many cases of unethical behaviour on the casinos part and really enjoy when they get burnt somewhat by advantage players, but where is the line drawn? Imagine finding and using something like that play in the Mob run casino days how it would turn out?

[Bob21]

Personally, over the years I have seen many, many cases of unethical behaviour on the casinos part...

Bosox, I’ve seen APs say this over the years, but never really seen it myself. And, yes, I’m an AP and have been backed off and 86’d, one time fairly rudely and walked to my car by a big bouncer type, but I’ve never seen what I’d call unethical behavior. If I put myself in their shoes, I think they did the right thing by kicking me out. I mean after all, I’m not helping their business by being an AP and taking money from them.

Maybe I’ve never seen what APs call unethical behavior because I’m a low level AP. Who knows? I’ve never seen a casino serve someone who is overly drunk. In fact, I’ve seen many casinos cut someone off because they have been drinking too much. I’ve had waitresses ask me if I thought someone I was playing with was getting too drunk, and when I said yes, they would get the host and she would politely tell him they would no longer serve him any more alcohol.

Bosox, I’d just like a couple examples of what you consider unethical behavior on part of casinos because I’ve never seen it.

[BoSox]

Personally, over the years I have seen many, many cases of unethical behaviour on the casinos part...

Bosox, I’ve seen APs say this over the years, but never really seen it myself.

Bosox, I’d just like a couple examples of what you consider unethical behavior on part of casinos because I’ve never seen it.

Bob, most everything I have seen wrong with unethical behavior on the casinos part involved TIMING. Always after the fact that the individual lost their money, too many examples "in higher levels of play" to be a coincidence. A little more compassion may infrequently be shown at lower levels of play. I know you are now going to say that it not the responsibility of the casinos to play nurse maids. Bullshit, this is a thin line that once again borders on ethics.

[redietz]

Advantage play, cheating, crime....where do you draw the line? Obviously the definition of advantage play is pretty simple. Playing with an advantage. By this definition even the most illegal things like capping bets, marking cards would be an advantage play. But I don't think any reasonable person or AP would consider it so. So where is the line?

Obviously except in the mind of the casino industry, things like card counting or vulturing machines, isn't cheating or illegal. And just as obvious things like marking cards and light wands are cheating and illegal. But what about the grey area in between. With table games things like hole-carding? Not illegal but is it cheating?

On the machine side, like I said, I don't think anyone outside the casino industry would consider vulturing cheating or illegal. And it is pretty clear that using a device like a lightwand or other electronic device to jam or alter the electronics is both cheating and illegal. But again what about the grey area in between?

What if a player discovers a glitch that allows for a higher payout or a payout of jackpot hands at a higher denomination than was actually played and won? Is this a legitimate advantage play? Is it cheating? Is it illegal? I mean, I guess technically the player hasn't done anything illegal. Maybe some legalese thing like knowingly accepting payment you weren't entitled to. I don't know.

One final question. Suppose someone is charged but the government can't make the case and ends up dropping the charges such as the Game King double up case. Was the act still illegal?

I am anxious to hear the views of all my fellow AP's especially you Rob Singer?

This is 31 pages and I'm only on the first page. I have to assume that there's a lot of crap in this thread, which I may or may not have time to delete, given that WSOP is starting for me in 2 days.

Anyway, here are my thoughts:

Obviously I think any form of true advantage play is totally fine.

I feel that blatant cheating -- such as using devices to give yourself and edge -- is wrong.

I feel that anything you can use your mind/senses to do (such as hole-carding) is also fine.

The toughest one to decide involves glitches in machines. There it's a true grey area, but here's my take on it:

- If you're being overcomped, it is fine. It is not up to the player to make sure he's being comped at a proper level. (At the same time, if the casino discovers the overcomping and corrects it, the player can't really cry foul.)

- If you find some misset paytable which makes a machine tremendously +EV, again it's fine. Again, it is not the player's responsibility to make sure paytables are set so odds are against him.

- If you find a glitch in a machine which makes it behave contrary to how it was intended, then I feel that's cheating and is wrong. An example was the Game King "double up" case. The guys busted for this deserved it. They were basically doing the same thing as repeatedly using an ATM which is overpaying. They're just lucky that the government was stupid and charged them with crimes which didn't apply to the case (lol computer hacking).

I agree with this except for the last example of the double up, and then I disagree only with the semantics. I agree with what would happen legally. If I were Nestor/Kane (or "Singer"), I would expect to be considered a criminal and would expect it to play out like an overpaying ATM case, as Dan said. Would I consider it a criminal act while I was doing it? Probably not. I'd probably have "Singer's" self-serving attitude that I had earned it by somehow "discovering" the glitch. So I'm being honest about the limits of my honesty (monet would approve). The more complicated the process necessary to exploit the error, the more I'd feel as if I'd "earned" it. But I would still expect it to fall into the legal category of the overly friendly ATMs and be pursued for a crime.

[Mission146]

Dan Druff wrote:

- If you find a glitch in a machine which makes it behave contrary to how it was intended, then I feel that's cheating and is wrong. An example was the Game King "double up" case. The guys busted for this deserved it. They were basically doing the same thing as repeatedly using an ATM which is overpaying. They're just lucky that the government was stupid and charged them with crimes which didn't apply to the case (lol computer hacking).


I could not agree more. If a case could not have been made by the government in that instance for intent to defraud something is definitely wrong. The government messed up the case big time. If that was not a clear case to defraud, I don't know what the hell is, and this goes way beyond when is a hand is over in video poker. Is there anyone else besides Dan and myself who thinks that the Game King play was unethical? I am not affraid to say that if I was aware of the play 10 to 15 years ago I do not think I would have would have had the balls "on what I consider cheating" to carry it through and would have passed on the play. Personally, over the years I have seen many, many cases of unethical behaviour on the casinos part and really enjoy when they get burnt somewhat by advantage players, but where is the line drawn? Imagine finding and using something like that play in the Mob run casino days how it would turn out?

It may or may not have been unethical, but like I said before, ethics to me is just a cost/benefit like anything else. I'll happily reevaluate my ethical integrity when I'm sitting on two million dollars, or so, and I would certainly have plenty of time to do so. I'll call into question my sense of right and wrong during my post ninth hole cup of tea on my second round of golf that day at the country club where I would live.

As far as crimes applying (or not) to the case, again, there were simply no (criminal) crimes that fit the boundaries of the case. It wasn't a matter of failing to charge them with something that's on the books and is strictly applicable, it was a matter of them trying to charge them with the thing most likely to be the case. They can't charge them with a crime that doesn't exist nor make a new crime definition apply retroactively.

Just look at the states, in particular Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania had Nestor up on some 600 individual counts (including theft) and dropped every single one of them. Why would they do this? Because there is no crime on the books (or wasn't at the time) that actually describes the events that took place.

Just because something might be considered, even if Universally, 'Wrong,' or, 'Unethical,' doesn't automatically make that thing a crime.

Finally, any of the casinos could have in theory brought a civil suit. Not that they would have prevailed, but you can bring a civil suit for pretty much anything you want.

[redietz]

Personally, over the years I have seen many, many cases of unethical behaviour on the casinos part...

Bosox, I’ve seen APs say this over the years, but never really seen it myself. And, yes, I’m an AP and have been backed off and 86’d, one time fairly rudely and walked to my car by a big bouncer type, but I’ve never seen what I’d call unethical behavior. If I put myself in their shoes, I think they did the right thing by kicking me out. I mean after all, I’m not helping their business by being an AP and taking money from them.

Maybe I’ve never seen what APs call unethical behavior because I’m a low level AP. Who knows? I’ve never seen a casino serve someone who is overly drunk. In fact, I’ve seen many casinos cut someone off because they have been drinking too much. I’ve had waitresses ask me if I thought someone I was playing with was getting too drunk, and when I said yes, they would get the host and she would politely tell him they would no longer serve him any more alcohol.

Bosox, I’d just like a couple examples of what you consider unethical behavior on part of casinos because I’ve never seen it.

Here's some examples of unethical behavior by casinos. And I'm bypassing the whole addiction, plying people with alcohol/hookers/love stuff. These are simple and get repeated:

1) The Palms trickeration mentioned currently in Guy Incognito's thread.
2) The misreporting of what'll happen to your comps/points when ownership changes occur. I've been told repeatedly one thing (your comps'll be increased/better) by multiple casino personnel at different levels, and then something completely different (whoops, they've zeroed out) occurs after the fact. Happens all the time.
3) Rigged drawings that serve the casinos' interests(monet will love me for this). Happens all the time. Has happened historically. Has happened recently. Will continue to happen in perpetuity. Rarely exposed, and when exposed the consequences (generally a hefty fine) have no real negative PR effect and do not outweigh the benefits to the casinos of the rigged drawings.

That's five minutes worth of unethical casino behavior. Give me a few hours and I could write a book. Bob21, want to contact a vanity press so we can co-author a tome? You pay, I write.

[unowme]

- If you find some misset paytable which makes a machine tremendously +EV, again it's fine. Again, it is not the player's responsibility to make sure paytables are set so odds are against him.

- If you find a glitch in a machine which makes it behave contrary to how it was intended, then I feel that's cheating and is wrong. An example was the Game King "double up" case. The guys busted for this deserved it. They were basically doing the same thing as repeatedly using an ATM which is overpaying. They're just lucky that the government was stupid and charged them with crimes which didn't apply to the case (lol computer hacking).

How is this any different morally or legally from exploiting a dealer who exposes a hole card or finding and exploiting a biased roulette wheel? Both cause the game to behave contrary to how it was intended. Both are basically flaws the gambler has identified and unfairly taken advantage of the casino. No different, really.

I'll argue exploiting a software flaw in a gaming machine is far different than keeping money from an overpaying ATM in a financial institution....at least from a legal perspective The ATM situation and all banking errors are covered by specific state and federal laws. That's why the Feds were trying to apply laws that govern hacking to this, but could not....because a Gaming Machine is just not the same as a personal computer or an ATM. It's a device that's very nature includes wagers, winning payouts and risk to the player and the casino. It's supposed to be fully tested and approved by manufactures and gaming authorities. An ATM's very nature does not include wagers, winning payouts and risk to either consumer or owner. If what they did was actually criminal, you can bet they'd be in jail by now.

Now morally is a different story. I'm not perfect. I just can't criticize them for legally taking unfair advantage of these casinos. Game King should have done a better job of testing. The casinos should have been more vigilant and not paid these major payouts for flawed wins. Just like it's their responsibility not to set the pay tables so nickle VP pays $4000 for royals. Just like they should do a better job of training their dealers not to show their hole cards. On the grand ethical scale, I'm not sure this even registers....compared to all of the really serious criminals and assholes that walk this earth. To me it's like not speaking up when the blackjack dealer overpays you. It's not my job to correct your mistakes.

[slingshot]

I have oft wondered about the rigged drawings. I gave in and went to one of the "weekend" tournaments to try for prizes and free play. When my round came up, I was surprised to notice we had to play at a machine chosen beforehand and our contestant number above it. The object was to "slap" bubbles as they appeared on the screen and the machine would tally up your points. The big spenders-who were obvious by their screaming and prancing- had bubbles constantly appearing on their screens. I think I got 5-6 the whole session. It was my first and last tournament.

[Rob.Singer]

My opinion on whether my finding of and then using the double up glitch was legal or not? It probably doesn't come from the same perspective as anyone else here. I have never led the life of a law-breaker, yet I sat at machines and closely examined two home machines and casino machines after finishing my weekly SPS play for the better part of 4 years, not really knowing what I was doing or looking for. I did, however, expect something could be done in the ONLY machine mode where when a hand is "over" it really isn't over. But when that light upstairs suddenly came on (ie, I caught the bill feeder light being on out of the corner of my eye before the hand was "really over") then my efforts seemed worth it.

To be honest, I truly didn't know and still don't, if what I did was illegal or not. I do not know if just because the feds dropped the case, if that meant what I did was legal. I always felt the state could keep pursuing a case. I try to rationalize the fact that I refused to ever use an existing hand I did not play for or hit, and how I never used any winners I hit more than once, as the moral equivalency of it possibly being legal. But that's all I have. The way the Kane case closed down helped, but because it seemed sloppy and you can never 100% trust anything when it comes to issues like this, it didn't guarantee anything to me. That's why I waited out the 10 years.

Dan, ATM's are a COMPLETELY different animal. You know that.

[Rob.Singer]

I've argued over and over again with Rob about his system going back to 2006. Arci goes back to 2003 arguing with him about it. Lots of people have jumped in here and there with great arguments of why it doesn't work. vpFREE, LVA, Videopoker.com, WoV, Alanbestbuys and now Vegas Casino Talk. Rob has taken on all comers. I've argued and read the same great arguments against his system for 13 years. Rob has never given an inch. And he never will.

It's the typical MO of any hucksters.

If Rob truly won what he said he did, is because of simple variance. Nothing else. The longer he, or anyone applies it, the sooner it'll fail.

And if he really had "keys to the kingdom", why in earth would he waste time with millions of post, on a bunch of different message boards, under countless different sceen names, when he could just get wealthier than Jeff Bezos. And don't give me the "I'm retired" schtic. His hero Donald Trump is older and wealthier than Argentino and he sure as hell isn't retired. Face the facts. His whole "expert winning player" is a bogus made up lie.

You jbjb are the typical Nestor-type player who would never know how to strategically plan your approach after finding a play like this, and would not have the slightest clue on how or why to limit what you are doing. If there's anything here you've ever shown, it's density, illogic, and confusion.

[mickeycrimm]

My opinion on whether my finding of and then using the double up glitch was legal or not? It probably doesn't come from the same perspective as anyone else here. I have never led the life of a law-breaker, yet I sat at machines and closely examined two home machines and casino machines after finishing my weekly SPS play for the better part of 4 years, not really knowing what I was doing or looking for. I did, however, expect something could be done in the ONLY machine mode where when a hand is "over" it really isn't over. But when that light upstairs suddenly came on (ie, I caught the bill feeder light being on out of the corner of my eye before the hand was "really over") then my efforts seemed worth it.

To be honest, I truly didn't know and still don't, if what I did was illegal or not. I do not know if just because the feds dropped the case, if that meant what I did was legal. I always felt the state could keep pursuing a case. I try to rationalize the fact that I refused to ever use an existing hand I did not play for or hit, and how I never used any winners I hit more than once, as the moral equivalency of it possibly being legal. But that's all I have. The way the Kane case closed down helped, but because it seemed sloppy and you can never 100% trust anything when it comes to issues like this, it didn't guarantee anything to me. That's why I waited out the 10 years.

Dan, ATM's are a COMPLETELY different animal. You know that.

It looks like Dan hasn't yet caught up with the fact that Rob is claiming to have worked the same glitch as Kane and Nestor.

[Mission146]

I'll tell you guys what my problem is with some of the takes on here, mostly because I just worked it out for myself.

In essence, it does stem from a, "Them and us," mentality...but not with the casinos, but rather with the court system and law enforcement. Here we have an event that people are swearing up and down should have been illegal, or some kind of criminal act and people stating that Kane/Nestor were just charged under the wrong criminal statute. The reality is that no existing criminal statute (as I've said before) could be bent into the framework of the events that actually took place.

Even for those who may accept that explanation, there seems to be some notion that what was done should have been illegal. Arguably, you could pass new criminal statute, or amend existing ones, such that the events in question would become criminal in nature. I perhaps wouldn't have a problem with that in the event that those modifications would encompass precisely what Kane/Nestor did, or something very close to that. What concerns me is whether or not they would make any new statutes have the reach and scope of what Kane/Nestor did or, in what I consider a more likely event, those statutes become even more overreaching to the point of being all-encompassing. I envision verbiage such as this:

...to use any gambling device other than the way that was intended by the casinos or the manufacturer of that device...

If the verbiage were something like that, then you could make an argument...especially if an overzealous prosecutor...that something as simple as straight up vulturing becomes illegal because it involves only selectively playing a gambling device in a way not intended by the manufacturer. Certainly the manufacturer doesn't intend for an individual to ONLY play when he/she is at an advantage.

In terms of borderline crazy overreaches of the law, all we have to do is look at the way Colorado handles abandoned slot credits. It's nonsensical.

What you already have in many cases is law enforcement who will bend over backwards any time a casino snaps its fingers. In some areas, you have law enforcement who will confiscate large sums of cash from players who were doing nothing even remotely illegal under some premise of, "Suspicious activity." Some areas treat the mere act of having large amounts of cash as suspicious.

We have two guys who can put one in the, "Win," column in terms of an act not being illegal and yet we have people here, some of whom are advantage players, clamoring up and down that it should have been illegal. Why would we want to make more stuff illegal?

In terms of wanting to see the two guys punished, I don't get what sense that makes. I'm not one to look at casinos as, "The enemy," but nor am I heartbroken when the supposed victim of an act that did not end up being criminally illegal is a casino.

So, that's my problem. People have to worry about having money seized or being unlawfully detained already, so why would we want to put more stuff on the books that could easily and foreseeably result in any number of overreaches?

[unowme]

Here's some examples of unethical behavior by casinos. And I'm bypassing the whole addiction, plying people with alcohol/hookers/love stuff. .

No need to bypass the 'whole addiction stuff'. That's at the heart of most everything the industry does. Here's an article from a couple of years back. "How casinos enable gambling addicts"

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...it-all/505814/

It discusses the many ways the casino industry attempts to manipulate compulsive gamblers. It's a good read. Here's an interesting quote..."The business plan for casinos is not based on the occasional gambler. The business plan for casinos is based on the addicted gambler." Just like the Tobacco industry has made billions selling poison to addicted smokers. Is that ethical? Is it moral? It's clearly legal.

Making the Casino Industry out to be some paragon of ethics and virtue is really blind to what they do. They do anything possible to legally separate gamblers from their money...from targeting compulsive gamblers to plying whales with alcohol until they are blackout drunk. I'm not going to judge them for that though. As long as it's legal. Just like I'm not going to criticize gamblers for doing everything they can do legally to separate the casino from their money. Turnabout is fair play.

[unowme]

To be honest, I truly didn't know and still don't, if what I did was illegal or not.

I'm surprised you never consulted an attorney for an opinion on your potential legal jeopardy.

[Bob21]

Here's some examples of unethical behavior by casinos. And I'm bypassing the whole addiction, plying people with alcohol/hookers/love stuff. .

No need to bypass the 'whole addiction stuff'. That's at the heart of most everything the industry does. Here's an article from a couple of years back. "How casinos enable gambling addicts"

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...it-all/505814/

It discusses the many ways the casino industry attempts to manipulate compulsive gamblers. It's a good read. Here's an interesting quote..."The business plan for casinos is not based on the occasional gambler. The business plan for casinos is based on the addicted gambler." Just like the Tobacco industry has made billions selling poison to addicted smokers. Is that ethical? Is it moral? It's clearly legal.

Making the Casino Industry out to be some paragon of ethics and virtue is really blind to what they do. They do anything possible to legally separate gamblers from their money...from targeting compulsive gamblers to plying whales with alcohol until they are blackout drunk. I'm not going to judge them for that though. As long as it's legal. Just like I'm not going to criticize gamblers for doing everything they can do legally to separate the casino from their money. Turnabout is fair play.

This posts and the attached articles are classic liberalism 101. Using this logic, the airline industry is trying to make people “addicted” to flying with their frequent flier program; hotels are trying make people “addicted” to staying in their hotels with their frequent point programs. I guess you could say all retail shops are trying to get us “addicted” to shopping at their stores since they all have loyalty cards. Casinos aren’t the only industry trying to drive business through loyalty cards.

Here’s another business lesson for the all the APs that don’t understand how business works. All businesses make the majority of their profit from their most loyal customers. In liberal jargon, these are consider “addicted” customers. Of course, the casinos are trying to drive more business from their most loyal customers. All businesses do this. Amazon is really good at this. I’m “addicted” to many of their programs. I wonder if there is a seven step help program to help with my Amazon “addiction”. Lol

Like I said, I never knew the AP community was so liberal. I get all of them aren’t liberals, but the vast majority are. They don’t believe in personal accountability. It’s always the business fault when an individual does something stupid. Liberals don’t believe people are capable of thinking for themselves.

Being a proud conservative, I have more respect and confidence in the individual than most people. I also believe in freedom, which I know isn’t the case for most liberals. They want to impose their beliefs on the rest of society.

[redietz]

Here's some examples of unethical behavior by casinos. And I'm bypassing the whole addiction, plying people with alcohol/hookers/love stuff. .

No need to bypass the 'whole addiction stuff'. That's at the heart of most everything the industry does. Here's an article from a couple of years back. "How casinos enable gambling addicts"

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...it-all/505814/

It discusses the many ways the casino industry attempts to manipulate compulsive gamblers. It's a good read. Here's an interesting quote..."The business plan for casinos is not based on the occasional gambler. The business plan for casinos is based on the addicted gambler." Just like the Tobacco industry has made billions selling poison to addicted smokers. Is that ethical? Is it moral? It's clearly legal.

Making the Casino Industry out to be some paragon of ethics and virtue is really blind to what they do. They do anything possible to legally separate gamblers from their money...from targeting compulsive gamblers to plying whales with alcohol until they are blackout drunk. I'm not going to judge them for that though. As long as it's legal. Just like I'm not going to criticize gamblers for doing everything they can do legally to separate the casino from their money. Turnabout is fair play.

This posts and the attached articles are classic liberalism 101. Using this logic, the airline industry is trying to make people “addicted” to flying with their frequent flier program; hotels are trying make people “addicted” to staying in their hotels with their frequent point programs. I guess you could say all retail shops are trying to get us “addicted” to shopping at their stores since they all have loyalty cards. Casinos aren’t the only industry trying to drive business through loyalty cards.

Here’s another business lesson for the all the APs that don’t understand how business works. All businesses make the majority of their profit from their most loyal customers. In liberal jargon, these are consider “addicted” customers. Of course, the casinos are trying to drive more business from their most loyal customers. All businesses do this. Amazon is really good at this. I’m “addicted” to many of their programs. I wonder if there is a seven step help program to help with my Amazon “addiction”. Lol

Like I said, I never knew the AP community was so liberal. I get all of them aren’t liberals, but the vast majority are. They don’t believe in personal accountability. It’s always the business fault when an individual does something stupid. Liberals don’t believe people are capable of thinking for themselves.

Being a proud conservative, I have more respect and confidence in the individual than most people. I also believe in freedom, which I know isn’t the case for most liberals. They want to impose their beliefs on the rest of society.

Lovely rant.

You know, if we couldn't measure physiological responses including chemical levels and electrical neural responses before, during, and after certain gambling activities, if we couldn't actually measure addiction, then we could all go through life firmly believing whatever fairy tales about our "independent behavior" we prefer to believe. As always, I recommend "Addiction By Design" by Natasha Dow Schull. It does a great job of summarizing machine-gambling research of the last 20 years or so. Wonderful book.

[The Boz]

Seemed like a good picture for the discussion.