Video poker question

[mickeycrimm]

In May of 2002 I was dragging up on the Pioneer/Laughlin Double Time play. They had finally gotten it screwed down where it wasn't worth so much money. I made plans to head up to Vegas. Randy McKay told me "Mickey, you get around, check all the Gamemakers and see if you can find a game called Draw Till U Win." It was the first I had heard of the game. I asked him about the strategy. He said "Just call me if you find it." I don't blame him for not giving me the strategy. Why would I call him If I had the strategy? LOL! But what Randy didn't know, and I guess a lot of other AP's didn't know, was I could write video poker strategy with just the payscale, a calculator and scratch paper.

So I went up to Vegas and checked into the Golden Gate. Downtown had a lot of vulturables in those days and also 10-20 holdem at the Horseshoe. So I'm lapping around the vulturables downtown and walk into the Vegas Club. First Bally Gamemaker I see I check it and lo and behold....there's Draw Till U Win. I sat down to play the game. It didn't look anything special, just a 6/5 Double Bonus payscale. After awhile I made a 4-card straight flush and found out about getting to draw until you hit a pay. I kept playing because I wanted to see what happened with a 4-card royal. So I finally get a 4-card royal and I get to draw until I win something. About the 6th card out I made the royal. So I hit a royal the first time I played the game.

I cashed out and went back to my room at the Golden Gate. I was up there two days writing the strategy. Only came out to eat. I went over it and over it to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. When I felt it was good enough I stepped back over to the Golden Gate, sat down at the Gamemaker, and went to punch the game up....and it was gone! Dammit! Dammit! Dammit! Shit!

I looked all over Vegas for it. Couldn't find it anywhere. I kept thinking about what to do. I finally decided I was going to have to take a trip to Northern Nevada. From Reno/Tahoe all the way across to Wendover looking for that game.

[Rob.Singer]

It's been at the Masquerade Bar at the Rio for years.

There's at least 3 bartops with it at Pioneer Crossing in Fernley. I think Bodines also has it in Carson, but not 100% sure.

Yes Bodine's does have it on the floor. They also have the best breakfast in the area.

[monet]

We may have played 10-20 at the Shoe as I played in that game(s) since 95.
I played in the 4-8 Omaha games as well for many years.
Unless Ho came along and created a 10-20 or 15-30 Omaha Hi Game that is.
In those days, Cherry Pie, Diamond Mines and Boom Machines were all the craze.

Those were the days of Tony Sheldon, Hand Written Comps and Shaved Meat in the Sports Book Deli.
We will never get them back.
Now it is all perfumed air and don't drink or gamble too much or we will throw you out.

[tableplay]

It's been at the Masquerade Bar at the Rio for years.

There's at least 3 bartops with it at Pioneer Crossing in Fernley. I think Bodines also has it in Carson, but not 100% sure.

Yes Bodine's does have it on the floor. They also have the best breakfast in the area.

I just eat at the Costco a block west from there - big pizza slice and fruit smoothie for five and change.

[tableplay]

In May of 2002 I was dragging up on the Pioneer/Laughlin Double Time play. They had finally gotten it screwed down where it wasn't worth so much money. I made plans to head up to Vegas. Randy McKay told me "Mickey, you get around, check all the Gamemakers and see if you can find a game called Draw Till U Win." It was the first I had heard of the game. I asked him about the strategy. He said "Just call me if you find it." I don't blame him for not giving me the strategy. Why would I call him If I had the strategy? LOL! But what Randy didn't know, and I guess a lot of other AP's didn't know, was I could write video poker strategy with just the payscale, a calculator and scratch paper.

So I went up to Vegas and checked into the Golden Gate. Downtown had a lot of vulturables in those days and also 10-20 holdem at the Horseshoe. So I'm lapping around the vulturables downtown and walk into the Vegas Club. First Bally Gamemaker I see I check it and lo and behold....there's Draw Till U Win. I sat down to play the game. It didn't look anything special, just a 6/5 Double Bonus payscale. After awhile I made a 4-card straight flush and found out about getting to draw until you hit a pay. I kept playing because I wanted to see what happened with a 4-card royal. So I finally get a 4-card royal and I get to draw until I win something. About the 6th card out I made the royal. So I hit a royal the first time I played the game.

I cashed out and went back to my room at the Golden Gate. I was up there two days writing the strategy. Only came out to eat. I went over it and over it to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. When I felt it was good enough I stepped back over to the Golden Gate, sat down at the Gamemaker, and went to punch the game up....and it was gone! Dammit! Dammit! Dammit! Shit!

I looked all over Vegas for it. Couldn't find it anywhere. I kept thinking about what to do. I finally decided I was going to have to take a trip to Northern Nevada. From Reno/Tahoe all the way across to Wendover looking for that game.

Great story. I liked the one you told about the slot attendant that would key up DTUW for his buddy and then take it out of the game selection screen when his buddy was finished. LOL.

[Rob.Singer]

There's at least 3 bartops with it at Pioneer Crossing in Fernley. I think Bodines also has it in Carson, but not 100% sure.

Yes Bodine's does have it on the floor. They also have the best breakfast in the area.

I just eat at the Costco a block west from there - big pizza slice and fruit smoothie for five and change.

I don't go to Costco's or Sam's Clubs. That Costco has to be filled with Comstock Country RVers, just like Bodines is. But their restaurant is excellent. The pizza is great, and when I'm there in the summers (going for 2 mos. next summer to make up for being grounded this summer) I have their great egg white veggie omelette at least four times a week.

[mickeycrimm]

In May of 2002 I was dragging up on the Pioneer/Laughlin Double Time play. They had finally gotten it screwed down where it wasn't worth so much money. I made plans to head up to Vegas. Randy McKay told me "Mickey, you get around, check all the Gamemakers and see if you can find a game called Draw Till U Win." It was the first I had heard of the game. I asked him about the strategy. He said "Just call me if you find it." I don't blame him for not giving me the strategy. Why would I call him If I had the strategy? LOL! But what Randy didn't know, and I guess a lot of other AP's didn't know, was I could write video poker strategy with just the payscale, a calculator and scratch paper.

So I went up to Vegas and checked into the Golden Gate. Downtown had a lot of vulturables in those days and also 10-20 holdem at the Horseshoe. So I'm lapping around the vulturables downtown and walk into the Vegas Club. First Bally Gamemaker I see I check it and lo and behold....there's Draw Till U Win. I sat down to play the game. It didn't look anything special, just a 6/5 Double Bonus payscale. After awhile I made a 4-card straight flush and found out about getting to draw until you hit a pay. I kept playing because I wanted to see what happened with a 4-card royal. So I finally get a 4-card royal and I get to draw until I win something. About the 6th card out I made the royal. So I hit a royal the first time I played the game.

I cashed out and went back to my room at the Golden Gate. I was up there two days writing the strategy. Only came out to eat. I went over it and over it to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. When I felt it was good enough I stepped back over to the Golden Gate, sat down at the Gamemaker, and went to punch the game up....and it was gone! Dammit! Dammit! Dammit! Shit!

I looked all over Vegas for it. Couldn't find it anywhere. I kept thinking about what to do. I finally decided I was going to have to take a trip to Northern Nevada. From Reno/Tahoe all the way across to Wendover looking for that game.

Great story. I liked the one you told about the slot attendant that would key up DTUW for his buddy and then take it out of the game selection screen when his buddy was finished. LOL.

That was at a truck stop in Wells, Nevada. I think it was a Pilot or something like that. They had a little 20 machine casino. Doug Reul told me that was going on. But then I got to see it for myself. I walked in there and they had 2 Gamemakers. Some guy is playing one so I look over his shoulder and sure enough he's playing DTUW. There was one attendent in the casino. I checked the other machine and it wasn't on that machine. So I go and get a hotel room. That night I went back. The guy was gone so I punch the game screen up and the game wasn't on it. So the next morning I go back and the same guy is playing DTUW.

I figure they were using that game to skim that little casino and weren't going to let anyone else in on it. He and the slot attendants were in cahoots.

[tableplay]

In May of 2002 I was dragging up on the Pioneer/Laughlin Double Time play. They had finally gotten it screwed down where it wasn't worth so much money. I made plans to head up to Vegas. Randy McKay told me "Mickey, you get around, check all the Gamemakers and see if you can find a game called Draw Till U Win." It was the first I had heard of the game. I asked him about the strategy. He said "Just call me if you find it." I don't blame him for not giving me the strategy. Why would I call him If I had the strategy? LOL! But what Randy didn't know, and I guess a lot of other AP's didn't know, was I could write video poker strategy with just the payscale, a calculator and scratch paper.

So I went up to Vegas and checked into the Golden Gate. Downtown had a lot of vulturables in those days and also 10-20 holdem at the Horseshoe. So I'm lapping around the vulturables downtown and walk into the Vegas Club. First Bally Gamemaker I see I check it and lo and behold....there's Draw Till U Win. I sat down to play the game. It didn't look anything special, just a 6/5 Double Bonus payscale. After awhile I made a 4-card straight flush and found out about getting to draw until you hit a pay. I kept playing because I wanted to see what happened with a 4-card royal. So I finally get a 4-card royal and I get to draw until I win something. About the 6th card out I made the royal. So I hit a royal the first time I played the game.

I cashed out and went back to my room at the Golden Gate. I was up there two days writing the strategy. Only came out to eat. I went over it and over it to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. When I felt it was good enough I stepped back over to the Golden Gate, sat down at the Gamemaker, and went to punch the game up....and it was gone! Dammit! Dammit! Dammit! Shit!

I looked all over Vegas for it. Couldn't find it anywhere. I kept thinking about what to do. I finally decided I was going to have to take a trip to Northern Nevada. From Reno/Tahoe all the way across to Wendover looking for that game.

Great story. I liked the one you told about the slot attendant that would key up DTUW for his buddy and then take it out of the game selection screen when his buddy was finished. LOL.

That was at a truck stop in Wells, Nevada. I think it was a Pilot or something like that. They had a little 20 machine casino. Doug Reul told me that was going on. But then I got to see it for myself. I walked in there and they had 2 Gamemakers. Some guy is playing one so I look over his shoulder and sure enough he's playing DTUW. There was one attendent in the casino. I checked the other machine and it wasn't on that machine. So I go and get a hotel room. That night I went back. The guy was gone so I punch the game screen up and the game wasn't on it. So the next morning I go back and the same guy is playing DTUW.

I figure they were using that game to skim that little casino and weren't going to let anyone else in on it. He and the slot attendants were in cahoots.

Thanks Mickey. I suppose as a "casino employee", the attendant could request par sheets and set up accounts at Scientific Games, IGT,Aristocrat, etc.
Perfectly legal.

[monet]

In Chaoots eh?
I don't believe it.
I was pretty sure after reading these forums that the gambling industry was honest, squeaky clean 99% of the time.
Nothing but a bunch of Church Goers in these Casinos from my understanding, after reading posts from KJ and Boz, along with others.

[mickeycrimm]

We may have played 10-20 at the Shoe as I played in that game(s) since 95.
I played in the 4-8 Omaha games as well for many years.
Unless Ho came along and created a 10-20 or 15-30 Omaha Hi Game that is.
In those days, Cherry Pie, Diamond Mines and Boom Machines were all the craze.

Those were the days of Tony Sheldon, Hand Written Comps and Shaved Meat in the Sports Book Deli.
We will never get them back.
Now it is all perfumed air and don't drink or gamble too much or we will throw you out.

I played in all those games as well though I wasn't as regular as you because i traveled out of town a lot. I was at a lot of the WSOP's though from 92 until it moved to the Rio. I was there when Moneymaker won it and caused the poker boom. The 4-8 O8 game was like watching paint dry because the dealers were so bad and the old geezers were slow to act. That 4-8 Omaha High game was the nuts.

That name, Ho, sounds familiar.

[mickeycrimm]

Along I-80, besides the casinos, there were bartop Gamemakers in pretty much all the bars, and trucks stops had plenty of them. I found DTUW in Sparks, Minden, Fernley, Fallon, Yerington, Carlin, Elko and Wendover. It took a few years for them to all disappear.

[MaxPen]

We may have played 10-20 at the Shoe as I played in that game(s) since 95.
I played in the 4-8 Omaha games as well for many years.
Unless Ho came along and created a 10-20 or 15-30 Omaha Hi Game that is.
In those days, Cherry Pie, Diamond Mines and Boom Machines were all the craze.

Those were the days of Tony Sheldon, Hand Written Comps and Shaved Meat in the Sports Book Deli.
We will never get them back.
Now it is all perfumed air and don't drink or gamble too much or we will throw you out.

I played in all those games as well though I wasn't as regular as you because i traveled out of town a lot. I was at a lot of the WSOP's though from 92 until it moved to the Rio. I was there when Moneymaker won it and caused the poker boom. The 4-8 O8 game was like watching paint dry because the dealers were so bad and the old geezers were slow to act. That 4-8 Omaha High game was the nuts.

That name, Ho, sounds familiar.

Ho is some busted up drunk Asian that wanders around downtown in flip flops.

[monet]

Ho is some busted up drunk Asian that wanders around downtown in flip flops.

He is and has managed to stay in better shape than Sieed... Sigheed... Si Ied... however you spell it.

I remember when Ho drank Heineken all the time...
In 2006 or so he move to Heineken Light...
In recent years it is Coors Light in a Glass!
Nothing better than hearing him order that drink and go Ape Shit when he doesn't get a glass.
Also fun when Cocktails ignores him or shuts him off... You don't want to make money!!
F You... I do what I want!
I don't care!
I know the book! I play by book!

[monet]

I played in all those games as well though I wasn't as regular as you because i traveled out of town a lot. I was at a lot of the WSOP's though from 92 until it moved to the Rio. I was there when Moneymaker won it and caused the poker boom. The 4-8 O8 game was like watching paint dry because the dealers were so bad and the old geezers were slow to act. That 4-8 Omaha High game was the nuts.

That name, Ho, sounds familiar.

Maybe you played or heard of Detroit Larry??
He used to play in that game a bunch.
I am pretty sure he passed away 10 to 13 years ago.
I heard that he died from someone else so that could be incorrect information.

[Ex-AP]

I'm the only AP that ever wrote about a Bally video poker game called Draw Till U Win. It was a 103.2%. It went extinct about 14 years ago. Because of the strategy you had about a 33,000 chance of hitting a royal from the deal and draw. But you also had a chance to make a royal anytime your final hand was a non-paying 4-card royal. Examples:

As-Ks-Qs-Ts-7s or As-Ks-Qs-Ts-Jh or As-Ks-Qs-Ts-Ac were paying hands so didn't qualify.

As-Ks-Qs-Ts-5c was a non-paying 4-card royal so you got to draw one card at a time until you hit a pay. With this hand there are only 21 cards left in the deck that will make a paying hand, 8 flush cards, 3 straight cards, 9 high pair cards, and 1 royal card. So the chance of making the royal on the draw was 1 in 21. And it could be even lower than that. If you were dealt a 3-card royal then discarded a high pair card, and/or straight card, and/or flush card, then caught a 4th royal card on the draw, your odds of making the royal in the Draw Till U Win feature was 1 in 20 or 1 in 19.

The overall effect was reducing overall royals odds down to 9700. That was the problem with this game. If you played it heavily you averaged a royal a day. That brought a lot of attention to it from casino personnel. Some players were even accused of cheating and investigated by Gaming. I hit 3 royals in a day twice.

At Stockmen's in Fallon, Nevada my ole' buddy Al and i were playing side by side when he hit 4 royals in 4 hours. That was the end of Draw Till U Win at Stockmen's. At the Carson Valley Inn in Minden, Nevada, Doug Reul hit 6 royals in one day and wound up having to explain to Gaming how he did that.

It was fun while it lasted.

I played that game in Reno. It was Baldini’s in 2001. It had two guns as the icon. The over cycle for the Royal Flush was under 9,000 because you would break a pat flush if it had 4 to the Royal.

There are lots of 103% or 102% video poker games off the top of you know where to find them.

Spielo had several over 100% VP games in Montana. Best one involved Triple Aces or better gets you a bonus round with multipliers.

[tableplay]

Spielo had several over 100% VP games in Montana. Best one involved Triple Aces or better gets you a bonus round with multipliers.

Did you mean Grand Vision Gaming, rather than Spielo ?
Speaking of Baldini's (<100% RTP):

[Ex-AP]

Spielo had several over 100% VP games in Montana. Best one involved Triple Aces or better gets you a bonus round with multipliers.

Did you mean Grand Vision Gaming, rather than Spielo ?
Speaking of Baldini's (<100% RTP):

Dude, do you even know what a 103%+ non-progressive VP game looks like? I played them *only* after very smart people point them out to me. I have never found a 103%+ non-progressive VP in my entire 20+ year career ... very hard to find them, but people find them and as Micky Crimm said himself someone had tipped him off.

The game was Triple Ace Poker and I doubt Mickey Crimm played it in Montana. Chicken Ranch casino near Jamestown removed their last two Spielo’s and the short pay Triple Ace Poker were on both of those machines in the back of the casino. Those two remaining Spielo’s uprights got removed right around the time Chicken Ranch removed Cash Eruption and other +EV bonus games like Jungle Riches (this was before their big expansion). Right about the time Cash Eruption and Jungle Riches also disappeared from nearby Black Oak casino ... too much of a coincidence if you ask me.

The 103%+ Triple Ace Poker was only known to a few people who had the right skills to analyze the game due to a difficult feature.

[tableplay]

Dude, do you even know what a 103%+ non-progressive VP game looks like?

Yes. I 5-coin several UX plays daily. These are non-progressives and they start at around 105% ;-)

[Ex-AP]

Yes. I 5-coin several UX plays daily. These are non-progressives and they start at around 105% ;-)

The context of the thread was a 103% play all game.

The last 103%+ game (meter movements of progressives were 1%) that I played was a bi-modal video poker game just like the one Micky wrote about. Gaming companies tend to make mistakes with bimodal VP games except for IGT.

[tableplay]

Yes. I 5-coin several UX plays daily. These are non-progressives and they start at around 105% ;-)

The context of the thread was a 103% play all game.

The last 103%+ game (meter movements of progressives were 1%) that I played was a bi-modal video poker game just like the one Micky wrote about. Gaming companies tend to make mistakes with bimodal VP games except for IGT.

Understood. The answer is still yes. Parlay Entertainment (online circa 2004) had a version of deuces wild where both the full house and the four of a kind paid 5 coins. They thought that because they shorted the player on the straight flush, five of a kind, and wild royal, that this was enough to make up for it. Well guess what ? it wasn't. The game came in at 104%+ straight up. The earlier days of online gaming were a gold mine. I'm guessing some of the other readers here knew about this game too.