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Thread: Caesars claims 15-20% of customer base is "unprofitable" for them, aims to drive those people out

  1. #1
    I've long said that casinos are giving up on "smart regular" type of players -- the ones who aren't advantage players, but smart/aware enough to fully understand proper game strategy and proper payouts.

    These type of players were long welcomed in Vegas, as they still were playing at a disadvantage.

    But Caesars indeed doesn't want them.

    Todd Price is a reporter for the Las Vegas Review Journal, and he wrote this:

    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  2. #2
    They should just drop the "players" and "gamblers" misnomers and appeal to what they really want -- donors and addicts.

    "Addicted to gambling? Want and need to play no matter the payoff, no matter the reward? Then get 'Totally Rewarded' by being a CET donor. We have gold donors, diamond donors, and seven stars we-know-you're-an-addict donors (but we won't tell anybody). Sick of donating without being recognized for your generosity? Come to 'Total Rewards,' where your compulsions will earn you cruises, dinners, and tickets to Celine Dion at just 10 to 20 times the usual cost. If you're totally addicted, you may as well get totally rewarded. Join Total Rewards today!"

    Unfortunately, Boyd has unveiled a new comp program that is essentially a variation of Total Rewards, except they have taken the rather blatant step of not offering points for comps until one has earned Sapphire. The tier credits earned are also matched to the type of machine and games played, so people playing top return video poker will essentially get nothing. Total Rewards and Boyd will basically be in lockstep, trying to cull the intelligent players.

    I'll be playing video poker at Westgate, since they folded their video poker into the sports book (vice versa, of course, for most). Maybe the Four Queens. And that'll be about it.

  3. #3
    I was delirious when I made that post (even though it looks like it came out okay). I had a huge sleep deficit and felt awful, but wanted to squeeze out that post before bed. I fell asleep while making it THREE TIMES with a heavy 17" laptop sitting on my stomach. I kept waking up from it being hard to breathe with that beast of a computer sitting on top of me. Finally I completed it, threw the computer aside, and crashed.

    Anyway, now that I'm awake, I want to expand a bit upon these major announcements by Caesars.

    First off, the "15-20% unprofitable" thing is huge, and it shows just how much disdain Caesars now has for any customers with a clue. It was assumed in December, when Caesars cut out the guaranteed free room benefit for Seven Stars, that they were finally trying to take a stand against APs. However, I opined at the time that this would affect more than just APs, and that it seemed strange that Caesars would be willing to alienate certain middle-high-limit recreational players who just happen to have irregular play patterns.

    Well, it looks like Caesars wasn't just after APs.

    They've decided that anyone who seems to know what they're doing -- whether basic strategy blackjack players, highest-paytable/correct-strategy VP players, or pass-line/odds craps players -- simply aren't worth it to them. By "unprofitable", they aren't saying that 15-20% of the players actually win long term, but rather that these players average gaming losses LESS than the cost to provide them all of the services (games, hosts, comps, etc).

    They seem to want the type of customer who is a guaranteed medium-term big loser (barring the few miracle jackpots), and ones who play at odds far worse than the minimal margins achieved through perfect play and good game selection.

    This is NOT about variance control, because Caesars is big enough to withstand individuals enjoying temporary positive variance (unlike some small independent casinos, who sometimes panic when even a mid-stakes player is on a hot run).

    So how does Caesars plan upon accomplishing this?

    It appears they don't know. But it does look like they plan upon no-offering people they deem "unprofitable", even if those people comprise 20% of their player base! And what odes such a cessation of comps look like? Does this mean that they'll lose their Total Rewards benefits?

    I'm guessing not, since most Total Rewards benefits aren't very impressive at this point, and rather just serve to provide discounts (no resort fees) or line-skips. Yes, there's the trips and annual food comp awards, but those are fixed in frequency (yearly) and probably not Caesars' biggest concern.

    Where I believe they'll be making changes likely involves mailed offers and RFB (room/food/beverage). I think they will no-offer and no-RFB anyone who isn't deemed "profitable" to them.

    It's also interesting that they say they will "attempt to make them profitable".

    How?

    Force them to play highly -EV slots at gunpoint?

    I'm imagining that this will be accomplished either through reduced comps, or through substantially worsened games. It may simply be decided that all games will be made unplayable for "good recreational players" through negative rule/payout changes.

    Before you say that you'll just avoid Caesars, unfortunately this strategy will probably propagate throughout the industry, as often happens when a major casino group makes a major change.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  4. #4
    Yet one more reason not to fly to Las Vegas in order to gamble.

    Resort fees, parking fees, now tightened / limited comps: the bean counters are tightening the noose.

    The question to be decided of course is whose neck will the noose tighten on, the players' or the casinos'?
    What, Me Worry?

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by MisterV View Post
    Yet one more reason not to fly to Las Vegas in order to gamble.

    Resort fees, parking fees, now tightened / limited comps: the bean counters are tightening the noose.

    The question to be decided of course is whose neck will the noose tighten on, the players' or the casinos'?

    The monopolies have necks too big for nooses.

  6. #6
    I'd be inclined to agree except I recall all the gnashing of teeth from CET and MGM a few years ago: they seemed close to the edge.
    What, Me Worry?

  7. #7
    Caesars hasn't had RFB since the buyout by Harrahs and the implementation of Total Rewards.

    I don't know where the cuts will be. The last time I was in Caesars was NYE but my guess is they're going to cut back on all the free rooms they give out and cut back on the gifts they offer as "show up" incentives.

    They are not going to cut out 20% of their customers because they have rooms they have to keep filled.

  8. #8
    Not going to quote Dan’s entire post but why is he shocked? CZR is in BUSINESS to make money. Like any business they make decisions.

    My issue is why people like Dan are angry? He admits he uses them for free rooms and comps while not being profitable for them and never will be. I don’t think they are going after lucky winners, just people who their algorithm shows are fucking them.

    Going back to the Loveman years, they invested heavily in technology and are finally using it to its full extent. Smart AP’s are still playing there if they have an advantage once and a while but they understand the comps are icing on the cake.

    People like Dan expected free rooms and more and are now angry when they make a business decision. Talk about feeling entitled and crying about it.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Caesars hasn't had RFB since the buyout by Harrahs and the implementation of Total Rewards.

    I don't know where the cuts will be. The last time I was in Caesars was NYE but my guess is they're going to cut back on all the free rooms they give out and cut back on the gifts they offer as "show up" incentives.

    They are not going to cut out 20% of their customers because they have rooms they have to keep filled.
    What do you mean they haven't had RFB?

    Of course they have. You just needed to dump all your RCs first before qualifying for it.

    RFB is any comp given to you by a host which isn't part of a marketing offer or rewards program.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by The Boz View Post
    Not going to quote Dan’s entire post but why is he shocked? CZR is in BUSINESS to make money. Like any business they make decisions.

    My issue is why people like Dan are angry? He admits he uses them for free rooms and comps while not being profitable for them and never will be. I don’t think they are going after lucky winners, just people who their algorithm shows are fucking them.

    Going back to the Loveman years, they invested heavily in technology and are finally using it to its full extent. Smart AP’s are still playing there if they have an advantage once and a while but they understand the comps are icing on the cake.

    People like Dan expected free rooms and more and are now angry when they make a business decision. Talk about feeling entitled and crying about it.

    Nobody is feeling "entitled".

    I was angry about the free room benefit being removed in 2018 because it was a bait-and-switch. They basically told people, "Earn Seven Stars and you'll have this great benefit until early 2019", and then in the middle they took it away.

    I have no issue with Caesars removing benefits or comps, as long as people know they're being removed when they play to earn it.

    Also, while I understand casinos continuously attempting to thwart APs, this is far beyond that. Now Caesars has identified that 20% of their players don't lose enough (or spend enough in other profitable areas), so they're going to push them out and try to restrict their business solely to suckers or big spenders. That's getting away from the basic model which Las Vegas was founded upon, in that all games had a house edge, but they welcomed all action (up to certain limits) even if your skill kept their edge at a low margin.

    Now they're basically saying, "If you don't make enough mistakes while gambling in the games we set up for you to play, we don't want your business."
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

  11. #11
    RFB is being invited in with all of your food, drinks, and shows comped, unless they restrict certain venues. Nothing else qualifies. When I was banned from playing at Harrahs LV in the mid 2000's, RFB, which I regularly received back then, was mentioned.

    What CET is doing is nothing more than what boz said--a business decision meant to increase net profit. All smart casinos do this, and if some haven't done it yet they will.

    This stuff is why when I became a professional gambler in 2000, I developed my play strategy to be successful without regard to comps, freebies, tournaments, drawings, or any slot club fluff whatsoever. Too bad the rest of the gambling world remains years behind.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    RFB is being invited in with all of your food, drinks, and shows comped
    I'm afraid for all you critics that Rob is actually correct about this. Getting additional expenses picked up AFTER you've exhausted your reward credits is not RFB.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    RFB is being invited in with all of your food, drinks, and shows comped, unless they restrict certain venues. Nothing else qualifies. When I was banned from playing at Harrahs LV in the mid 2000's, RFB, which I regularly received back then, was mentioned.

    What CET is doing is nothing more than what boz said--a business decision meant to increase net profit. All smart casinos do this, and if some haven't done it yet they will.

    This stuff is why when I became a professional gambler in 2000, I developed my play strategy to be successful without regard to comps, freebies, tournaments, drawings, or any slot club fluff whatsoever. Too bad the rest of the gambling world remains years behind.

    Note: sports bettors have never really bothered much with comps, freebies, tournaments, drawings, or "slot club fluff." And sports bettors certainly don't count them in any tally of what's been won or lost. Now last I checked, sports bettors were part of "the rest of the gambling world." So I guess sports bettors were years ahead of Argentino. Maybe he copied his approach and attitude from sports bettors. Certainly sounds like it.

  14. #14
    Help me out here, redietz. I ask this because I am not a sports bettor. Are you actually betting against the house or are you betting against other players with the house only taking a fee or commission on each bet?

    In the case of live poker players there are small if any comps because in poker rooms you are playing against other players and not the house. If I recall, the Caesars properties give poker players comps of $1 per hour as a token for playing there. You couldnt even buy yourself a lunch after eight hours of live poker play.

  15. #15
    A little of both. But with sports, and this is an over simplification, the sports book wants equal action on both sides of the game. Why?? Because they charge 10% juice on losses. So if there is $100 bet on each side of a game, one wins $100; the other loses $110. So the sports books want to lock in this 5%. So in terms of comps, if they make 5% on a hundred, and if a casino were to comp 30% of expected loss, for someone betting real money it would add up. They don't pay anything near that in comps. I get a greater amount back in horses with the "rebate shops" on-line. And that is based upon total wagered regardless of whether the bet wins or loses.

  16. #16
    It's getting worse - people with 150K tier credits are now getting turned down for Seven Stars, because reasons:

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  17. #17
    I'm shocked. This is the first time I ever heard of a letter like that.

    I won't be Seven Stars next year. I've had ZERO play at Caesars this year.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It's getting worse - people with 150K tier credits are now getting turned down for Seven Stars, because reasons:

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    It's rare that you see a private communication to an individual that basically admits "evidence of increasing addiction" is a criteria for reaching a casino club level. Such things are stated via roundabouts and euphemisms at gaming conferences and in industry publications. But rarely is an individual told directly that amping up his/her addiction is vital to his slot standing.

    This is an amazing and blatant piece of writing. Everyone signing up for Total Rewards should be given a copy of this.

  19. #19
    Gosh I saw nothing in the letter referencing addiction. You talk about addiction too much redietz. Why?

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    RFB is being invited in with all of your food, drinks, and shows comped
    I'm afraid for all you critics that Rob is actually correct about this. Getting additional expenses picked up AFTER you've exhausted your reward credits is not RFB.
    The modern definition of RFB is different.

    Previously, before rewards programs and the marketing computer took over, hosts were much more responsible for bringing players in.

    Back then (basically up through the early-mid 2000s), your play would be rated, and then hosts would offer you some form of RFB to bring you in. Sometimes it would be low-level RFB such as a free standard room and a few meals at the coffee shop. For high rollers, RFB would include a suite, lavish meals, and shows. Others would fall in between. Others wouldn't qualify for RFB at all.

    Back in those days, advantage gamblers would try to figure out the minimum play required to "qualify for RFB", meaning what was the minimum action you had to put in to get any comps at all.

    In modern times, RFB refers to what the host can do for you beyond the standard rewards program benefits and mailed computer-generated offers.

    For example, despite being Seven Stars, if I approached a host in Vegas and asked for a comp meal, I would be refused. If I pressed the matter, I would be told that my play "doesn't qualify for RFB".

    So, yes, Alan, hosts comping off your expenses is a form of RFB, and in fact that's mostly what RFB is nowadays. The other form involves hosts bringing you in with some kind of offer of their own.
    Check out my poker forum, and weekly internet radio show at http://pokerfraudalert.com

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