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Thread: Winning and using players card

  1. #1
    Hello Forum,

    I actually have a gambling question non related to any type of trolling or attacking Lol.

    Recently started vulturing and have been running very hot. Gotten very lucky and have hit a few hand pays recently at the same casino, an Indian casino outside Nevada. Always use my players card and get great comps, but starting to get concerned if I am only focusing on vulterable machines and consistenty winning (I realize I have been lucky too so dont always expect to run this hot) is being barred a legitimate concern?

    In reading this and other forums I have seen everything from always use your players card for the comps to you should pull your card or not use it when you have a strong advantage so you dont get barred to a casino is never gonna ban you for winning on slots and honestly a little confused on this whole issue.

    Any thoughts anyone with knowledge of this could provide would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you

  2. #2
    Anyone who wins over enough play will get backed off. Mickey has mentioned this happening to him specifically for slot play.

    It should take quite a lot of play though. They know people can run hot.

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by smurgerburger View Post
    Anyone who wins over enough play will get backed off. Mickey has mentioned this happening to him specifically for slot play.

    It should take quite a lot of play though. They know people can run hot.
    Thank you for responding Smurgerburger. Makes sense. Do you or anyone else have an opinion on what type of coin in and time frame would start drawing heat? I.E. if your up for 30 days with 50k coin in no one will bat an eye but if your up for say six months of regular play with $500k coin in then you can start expecting some heat?

    Thanks again!

  4. #4
    Depends on the type of vulturing IMO. If it’s UX or anything else with one or a few spins, don’t bother. If it’s a progressive that you may be on for a while, then use it.
    #FreeTyde

  5. #5
    If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

    Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

    Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?
    But Alan! If you can have the casino even hint of backing you off- why it's a badge of honor! They hope players believe they can have control over winning and not vice versa!

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

    Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?
    Thank you for the responses. I understand that handpays will be tracked whether I use my card or not but of the amount I am currently ahead year to date about half is from handpays and the rest is from smaller wins which is why I was posing the question.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

    Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?
    Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

    The good player learn from these backoffs. The one's that refuse to learn have short careers, whether that be professional or recreational career.

    Now machine AP's for the most part, have been exempt from this kind of casino paranoia. But that is changing. Casinos are identifying and cracking down on machine AP. Here in Vegas that crackdown has been led by Boyd. It is also occurring in Pennsylvania and probably other locations I am not familiar with and will grow. I fear the future for my machine AP brothers will involve having to decide to play unrated and lose that part of the advantage, which in some cases is what makes the whole play +EV. There may come a time when AP's have to stop chasing the handpay jackpots. Machine AP's will be grinder type players and someone like mickeycrimm is already well positioned.

    One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared. This was common with blackjack players a few years back (haven't seen much recently). And this was one of my first thoughts yesterday when I read Axelwolf's April fools promotion at Rampart. If it wasn't April fools day and that promotion has been real and at a boyd property, say, Suncoast, I would have said Watch out.

    Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, there will come a time in the not to distant future where machine AP's will have to decide whether it is worth it to play rated, just like blackjack players have had to make that decision for a while now. That time, may not be right now, but it is fast approaching.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

    Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?
    Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

    The good player learn from these backoffs. The one's that refuse to learn have short careers, whether that be professional or recreational career.

    Now machine AP's for the most part, have been exempt from this kind of casino paranoia. But that is changing. Casinos are identifying and cracking down on machine AP. Here in Vegas that crackdown has been led by Boyd. It is also occurring in Pennsylvania and probably other locations I am not familiar with and will grow. I fear the future for my machine AP brothers will involve having to decide to play unrated and lose that part of the advantage, which in some cases is what makes the whole play +EV. There may come a time when AP's have to stop chasing the handpay jackpots. Machine AP's will be grinder type players and someone like mickeycrimm is already well positioned.

    One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared. This was common with blackjack players a few years back (haven't seen much recently). And this was one of my first thoughts yesterday when I read Axelwolf's April fools promotion at Rampart. If it wasn't April fools day and that promotion has been real and at a boyd property, say, Suncoast, I would have said Watch out.

    Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, there will come a time in the not to distant future where machine AP's will have to decide whether it is worth it to play rated, just like blackjack players have had to make that decision for a while now. That time, may not be right now, but it is fast approaching.
    Thank you Kewlj that is excellent information. On certain mchiines with persistent wilds, I was pulling my card when I had several wilds lined up so I knew the next spin was going to be a large pay. A friendly old timer that I had met and spoken with previously happened to notice me doing this and told me that pulling your card in this situation will not prevent you from being tracked as I still had the same ticket in the machine that I was using for carded play. He said if I really wanted to avoid being tracked I would have to pull out my card, cash out the ticket and put new money in to play off the wilds. It make sense that they could track you this way be wondering if any knows if they actually do or if there is a way to tell?

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by DGenBen View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

    Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?
    Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

    The good player learn from these backoffs. The one's that refuse to learn have short careers, whether that be professional or recreational career.

    Now machine AP's for the most part, have been exempt from this kind of casino paranoia. But that is changing. Casinos are identifying and cracking down on machine AP. Here in Vegas that crackdown has been led by Boyd. It is also occurring in Pennsylvania and probably other locations I am not familiar with and will grow. I fear the future for my machine AP brothers will involve having to decide to play unrated and lose that part of the advantage, which in some cases is what makes the whole play +EV. There may come a time when AP's have to stop chasing the handpay jackpots. Machine AP's will be grinder type players and someone like mickeycrimm is already well positioned.

    One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared. This was common with blackjack players a few years back (haven't seen much recently). And this was one of my first thoughts yesterday when I read Axelwolf's April fools promotion at Rampart. If it wasn't April fools day and that promotion has been real and at a boyd property, say, Suncoast, I would have said Watch out.

    Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, there will come a time in the not to distant future where machine AP's will have to decide whether it is worth it to play rated, just like blackjack players have had to make that decision for a while now. That time, may not be right now, but it is fast approaching.
    Thank you Kewlj that is excellent information. On certain mchiines with persistent wilds, I was pulling my card when I had several wilds lined up so I knew the next spin was going to be a large pay. A friendly old timer that I had met and spoken with previously happened to notice me doing this and told me that pulling your card in this situation will not prevent you from being tracked as I still had the same ticket in the machine that I was using for carded play. He said if I really wanted to avoid being tracked I would have to pull out my card, cash out the ticket and put new money in to play off the wilds. It make sense that they could track you this way be wondering if any knows if they actually do or if there is a way to tell?
    Card pulling doesn't work. Once you start the play it's recorded.

    I've been banned from throwing dice at MGM Grand and NYNY and it's no badge of honor. It was actually ridiculous because I was just lucky.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.
    Well, I really need to correct myself on this one. My bad. Obviously not any or every winning player gets banned at these ultra sweaty joints. But they are fast to back of players, so fast that they end up backing off some completely regular winning players.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.
    Well, I really need to correct myself on this one. My bad. Obviously not any or every winning player gets banned at these ultra sweaty joints. But they are fast to back of players, so fast that they end up backing off some completely regular winning players.
    Yeah, casinos make mistakes from time to time. Good point Sherlock!

    Here’s a news flash for all APs. Casinos are like all business, they make mistakes occasionally. You know why this happens? Because they are run by humans and humans aren’t perfect.

    Hey kj, you never answered my question? Did you check with Al Rogers to see if the quote I found from Stanford Wong is correct? Can I still use it, or has Stanford changed his mind?

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

    Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?
    Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

    The good player learn from these backoffs. The one's that refuse to learn have short careers, whether that be professional or recreational career.

    Now machine AP's for the most part, have been exempt from this kind of casino paranoia. But that is changing. Casinos are identifying and cracking down on machine AP. Here in Vegas that crackdown has been led by Boyd. It is also occurring in Pennsylvania and probably other locations I am not familiar with and will grow. I fear the future for my machine AP brothers will involve having to decide to play unrated and lose that part of the advantage, which in some cases is what makes the whole play +EV. There may come a time when AP's have to stop chasing the handpay jackpots. Machine AP's will be grinder type players and someone like mickeycrimm is already well positioned.

    One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared. This was common with blackjack players a few years back (haven't seen much recently). And this was one of my first thoughts yesterday when I read Axelwolf's April fools promotion at Rampart. If it wasn't April fools day and that promotion has been real and at a boyd property, say, Suncoast, I would have said Watch out.

    Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, there will come a time in the not to distant future where machine AP's will have to decide whether it is worth it to play rated, just like blackjack players have had to make that decision for a while now. That time, may not be right now, but it is fast approaching.
    "One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared."

    Can you give me some examples of this and perhaps some type of documentation such as some court discovery records or testimony, perhaps a darksiders confession or something to make be believe this is true when it comes to slots? And even some blackjack promotions where the intent was to get AP's. How can this not be considered faults advertising. I can imagine if anyone ever got in some type of altercation with the casino or something bad were to happen. The casino would have a big problem.

    I know some AP's individually have been tricked by a host or management to come in so they could 86 them. I'm almost certain I was offered a comp by management after a dispute I had and they looked into my account further(basically they wouldn't cash my ticket because I didnt have my card in). They even called me more than once trying to get me to come use the comp. It just didnt feel normal to me especially their tone it just didnt seem genuine. I didnt go, but they got me a few months after that anyways when I hit a jackpot. I kinda knew better than to play in there on something I could hit a jackpot on, but it was a good situation so I did.
    Last edited by AxelWolf; 04-02-2019 at 07:00 PM.

  14. #14
    They used to run a sting here where the big gamblers were invited to a super bowl party with premium food and booze and big prizes. Then once they had them all there they were all busted either for book making or illegal gambling. I snuck out the kitchen once and never returned to any other similar invites.

    They also busted a legit super bowl party where there was a huge poker game every year. One of the major players was the mayor.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by Alan Mendelson View Post
    If you're getting hand pays with a W2G it doesn't matter if you're using a card or not because they know who you are.

    Stop being paranoid about winning small amounts. I really doubt any casino cares. I think too many APs claim they've been backed off because they think it's some kind of badge of honor. Honestly out of all the millions of casino players how many have been backed off?
    Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

    The good player learn from these backoffs. The one's that refuse to learn have short careers, whether that be professional or recreational career.

    Now machine AP's for the most part, have been exempt from this kind of casino paranoia. But that is changing. Casinos are identifying and cracking down on machine AP. Here in Vegas that crackdown has been led by Boyd. It is also occurring in Pennsylvania and probably other locations I am not familiar with and will grow. I fear the future for my machine AP brothers will involve having to decide to play unrated and lose that part of the advantage, which in some cases is what makes the whole play +EV. There may come a time when AP's have to stop chasing the handpay jackpots. Machine AP's will be grinder type players and someone like mickeycrimm is already well positioned.

    One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared. This was common with blackjack players a few years back (haven't seen much recently). And this was one of my first thoughts yesterday when I read Axelwolf's April fools promotion at Rampart. If it wasn't April fools day and that promotion has been real and at a boyd property, say, Suncoast, I would have said Watch out.

    Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, there will come a time in the not to distant future where machine AP's will have to decide whether it is worth it to play rated, just like blackjack players have had to make that decision for a while now. That time, may not be right now, but it is fast approaching.
    "One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared."

    Can you give me some examples of this and perhaps some type of documentation such as some court discovery records or testimony, perhaps a darksiders confession or something to make be believe this is true when it comes to slots? And even some blackjack promotions where the intent was to get AP's. How can this not be considered faults advertising. I can imagine if anyone ever got in some type of altercation with the casino or something bad were to happen. The casino would have a big problem.

    I know some AP's individually have been tricked by a host or management to come in so they could 86 them. I'm almost certain I was offered a comp by management after a dispute I had and they looked into my account further(basically they wouldn't cash my ticket because I didnt have my card in). They even called me more than once trying to get me to come use the comp. It just didnt feel normal to me especially their tone it just didnt seem genuine. I didnt go, but they got me a few months after that anyways when I hit a jackpot. I kinda knew better than to play in there on something I could hit a jackpot on, but it was a good situation so I did.
    What? Documentation? Court discovery? WTF are you talking about?

    What I am talking about is a blackjack "promotion" where blackjack AP's showed up and were immediately 86ed. I can recall two such cases, one here in Vegas.

    I didn't say this occurred to slot players / AP's. But the climate is now changing for machine AP's. I would be aware of the possibility (if I was a machine AP). The rules are changing that's all I am saying.

    Usually these "sting" promos are not advertised to the general public. They target AP's, through mail and emails. I am not a legal expert but I would guess it is the small print, that always says something about any promo can be cancelled at any time at the casino's discretion, that frees them from any liability.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post

    Spoken by a guy that has no clue about advantage play or advantage players. Obviously blackjack advantage players get backed off regularly. Hell at the really sweaty joints, like El Cortez, South Point, Valley Forge in Pa, just to name a few, any winning player gets backed off. THAT is how paranoid some casinos are.

    The good player learn from these backoffs. The one's that refuse to learn have short careers, whether that be professional or recreational career.

    Now machine AP's for the most part, have been exempt from this kind of casino paranoia. But that is changing. Casinos are identifying and cracking down on machine AP. Here in Vegas that crackdown has been led by Boyd. It is also occurring in Pennsylvania and probably other locations I am not familiar with and will grow. I fear the future for my machine AP brothers will involve having to decide to play unrated and lose that part of the advantage, which in some cases is what makes the whole play +EV. There may come a time when AP's have to stop chasing the handpay jackpots. Machine AP's will be grinder type players and someone like mickeycrimm is already well positioned.

    One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared. This was common with blackjack players a few years back (haven't seen much recently). And this was one of my first thoughts yesterday when I read Axelwolf's April fools promotion at Rampart. If it wasn't April fools day and that promotion has been real and at a boyd property, say, Suncoast, I would have said Watch out.

    Anyway, in answer to the OP's question, there will come a time in the not to distant future where machine AP's will have to decide whether it is worth it to play rated, just like blackjack players have had to make that decision for a while now. That time, may not be right now, but it is fast approaching.
    "One of the ways a casino or casino chain cracks down on AP's is to have a bogus promotion, that will draw advantage player, and then identify everyone who shows up and put them in some sort of database that is shared."

    Can you give me some examples of this and perhaps some type of documentation such as some court discovery records or testimony, perhaps a darksiders confession or something to make be believe this is true when it comes to slots? And even some blackjack promotions where the intent was to get AP's. How can this not be considered faults advertising. I can imagine if anyone ever got in some type of altercation with the casino or something bad were to happen. The casino would have a big problem.

    I know some AP's individually have been tricked by a host or management to come in so they could 86 them. I'm almost certain I was offered a comp by management after a dispute I had and they looked into my account further(basically they wouldn't cash my ticket because I didnt have my card in). They even called me more than once trying to get me to come use the comp. It just didnt feel normal to me especially their tone it just didnt seem genuine. I didnt go, but they got me a few months after that anyways when I hit a jackpot. I kinda knew better than to play in there on something I could hit a jackpot on, but it was a good situation so I did.
    What? Documentation? Court discovery? WTF are you talking about?

    What I am talking about is a blackjack "promotion" where blackjack AP's showed up and were immediately 86ed. I can recall two such cases, one here in Vegas.

    I didn't say this occurred to slot players / AP's. But the climate is now changing for machine AP's. I would be aware of the possibility (if I was a machine AP). The rules are changing that's all I am saying.

    Usually these "sting" promos are not advertised to the general public. They target AP's, through mail and emails. I am not a legal expert but I would guess it is the small print, that always says something about any promo can be cancelled at any time at the casino's discretion, that frees them from any liability.
    Sorry I may have misunderstood. I thought you were claiming they were doing this with slots now. Sure they can cancel a promo. I don't think they can run a promo for the purpose of banning AP's, at least not a public promo. Let me ask more about the stings you do know about. More details please. It's a very interesting subject. Are they doing it one person at a time, in small groups? How many times do you know where you are 100% sure this is what was going on? I'm just wondering if any casino has ever admitted doing this or if it was somehow proven or if any darksider has suggested this and then it happend.

  17. #17
    Suncoast set a trap about six years ago with a $5 Bonus Poker Deluxe machine. A point multiplier day where the card was worth 1%. They 86'd several players over it. Dancer got caught up in it and it cost him the Boyd properties. He wrote a couple articles about it. Several players on vpFREE told that they were caught in it to.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  18. #18
    I do know there have been many times where the casino wanted to run a promo but then realized they fucked up(probably due to a Dark-Side consultant) so they went ham on all the AP's and started group 86'ings. I watch it go down a number of times. Normally I would be off playing something different than the normal AP's who run and play the most obvious VP stuff, so I didn't get caught up in the mess. There have been a few times once a week promos where they would get hit one week and then target you or any of the same games played last time.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post

    Sorry I may have misunderstood. I thought you were claiming they were doing this with slots now.
    No problem. I am saying when I first read your thread at WoV, that was the first thing that crossed my mind, until I realized it was April 1. Even more convincing for me would have been if it was Suncoast or other Boyd property.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Suncoast set a trap about six years ago with a $5 Bonus Poker Deluxe machine. A point multiplier day where the card was worth 1%. They 86'd several players over it. Dancer got caught up in it and it cost him the Boyd properties. He wrote a couple articles about it. Several players on vpFREE told that they were caught in it to.
    Link please. So this was set up as a trap originally or did they just target players after the fact when they realized it was AP exploitable? Was this the swipe and win up to 25X or 50x points promo? I remember there being a promo like this about that time. The largest point multiplier would have made some of the games worth a very big hourly(I was even thinking even more than 1% if you could get a 50x). We were swiping, but we never got any multipliers worth a damn. We lost our swiper and could not make all the swips.

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