Seven Stars Renewal Event VS Diamond... Cue The Laugh Track

[Alan Mendelson]

Just a couple of comments which may or may not fit previous posts in this thread:

1. I never play for comps. If the comps come I take those that I want and will not complain about comps I can't use... such as cruises.

2. Yes, my comps $$ value has dropped dramatically over the past couple of years but at the same time my "play" has declined and my "wins" have increased.

3. Yes, Rob, I have hit big winners in the first couple of minutes of play including quad Aces on Royal Aces Bonus and even Royals. I hit two progressive royals at Caesars ($24K Bonus and $21K Jacks) only five hands apart (but that was about 9 years ago).

4. Playing 9/5 Jacks or 8/5 Bonus the "cost" of becoming 7Stars is about $8,000 and in my case this year I scored 7Stars at a profit because of an $8,000 royal.

5. Yes, the casinos are getting skimpier with comps and this is not a new trend, and it certainly would be better if they didn't... but that's business.

6. Rob, you must also be a 7Stars player with your play... and you must also be at the highest tier at other casino companies' players clubs. And you haven't noticed what's going on with these "reward programs"? And why would you criticize others for noticing the changes? Of course, it wouldn't surprise me that you throw the players clubs mailers in the trash without opening them and you... and only you... refuse to accept free plays and fee shopping trips because they would violate your mantra not to do things that the casino wants you to do. In which case you should claim the free play and the shopping sprees and donate them to a charity.

[Dan Druff]

Dan, you might think you can get your BS by the others here--including Spock, who is lurking on this thread as we speak with burning ears, but he will not humiliate you because I'm here--but you'll never get it by the common sense experts.

So you claim to have just "jumped into" video poker on the $5 machines....while you're also someone who's on record as griping vehemently at Caesars for not giving you free Gatorade or some other crazy complaint. Then you spend hour after hour moaning and groaning about cutbacks and cruise nonsense, that someone who is a beginner at vp would have no problem spending his own money on. And then you expect anyone would believe you suddenly stopped playing as soon as you got your special card? With the overwhelming amount of cruise details you espouse about saving a penny here and a nickel there when you're not criticizing them? Come on, man!

You're as easy to see through as Dancer and his divorce and subsequent odd behavior that could only result from low remaining assets. People who play $5 limits "almost exclusively" never gripe about a dollar here and a dollar there. I don't expect to see you say how many hands you think you've REALLY played. But at least if you're gonna try and make it look like you don't play much and take huge baths at Harrahs in doing so, you need to start controlling what you say in other threads & posts.

I don't know if you're stupid or just trolling.

I "jumped into" the $5 video poker because it allowed me to get to 2500 tier credits within 2 hours or so each day, thus earning me 5000 bonus tiers. Doing this on 20 different days will get me Seven Stars status, at which point I don't have to play for another 2 years, while I can lap up all the perks.

I don't see why this is so hard for you to understand.

I didn't play $1 because that would have required 10 hours of play to do the same, and I don't love VP that much to spend 10 hours in a single day doing it.

And if you really believe I am trying to save "a penny here and a nickel there", then you should totally believe that I quit playing once I got to Seven Stars.

[Dan Druff]

Also, Rob, while I initially took your various criticisms of Dancer seriously, I have rapidly been dismissing pretty much everything you've said about him, because the rest of your posts are so full of contradictions, trolling, and unfair assessments.

You seem to lack the ability to think critically, or you are doing this on purpose to get a rise out of people.

Either way, it's hard to believe anything you say.

[Alan Mendelson]

Dan you just admitted that you played for comps and at a game you don't "love too much." Do you at least enjoy it?

[Dan Druff]

Dan you just admitted that you played for comps and at a game you don't "love too much." Do you at least enjoy it?

I don't love video poker. It gets tedious after awhile because its all luck once you are playing perfect strategy.

I like regular poker because you have human opponents.

I like video poker enough to enjoy it in small doses.

[Count Room]

I don't love video poker. It gets tedious after awhile because its all luck once you are playing perfect strategy.

I like regular poker because you have human opponents.

I like video poker enough to enjoy it in small doses.

Whenever you start playing VP again, just let us know here on the forum when you eventually find that first royal (or A-C-E-$ or quad A's with kicker). Always a thrill to be savored!

[Alan Mendelson]

I don't love video poker. It gets tedious after awhile because its all luck once you are playing perfect strategy.

I like regular poker because you have human opponents.

I like video poker enough to enjoy it in small doses.

Since you never hit a royal, or ACE$, I have to assume that you are a net loser at video poker. You should not be playing video poker. Concentrate on live poker and forget about the "comps chase" because I doubt it really is working out for you as a "professional gambler." Pro gamblers would not do what you are doing.

Leave the "comp chase" to the rest of us schmendricks who are playing for entertainment...and even we entertainment players should know better than to play for comps.

[redietz]

What Dan is doing in terms of acquiring Seven Stars as efficiently as possible to reduce WSOP costs has been done by many poker players going back at least eight or nine years, including big names. I'm sure it's common for poker pros and almost-pros to debate and discuss the details each year.

What needs to be mentioned, of course, is that the expenses of playing in the WSOP and the way players are treated -- no comped rooms just for playing in it, no comped food, paying for valet, and so on -- are the direct result of CET taking over the enterprise. Thirty years ago, players were treated like something special. Now they're treated like fools and addicts.

[Alan Mendelson]

I know several people who make playing in the WSOP a part of their career. They rent a house for the month. It costs a lot less than the $8,000 it costs to become a 7 Stars player.

If his goal is to have lower costs for the WSOP I think reaching 7 Stars is not the way to do it.

[Dan Druff]

I know several people who make playing in the WSOP a part of their career. They rent a house for the month. It costs a lot less than the $8,000 it costs to become a 7 Stars player.

If his goal is to have lower costs for the WSOP I think reaching 7 Stars is not the way to do it.

First off, you are correct that I am a net loser in video poker. But could I have predicted that I would hit zero Royals on my path to Seven Stars? No. That's just how it fell for me. Giving me a hard time for losing more than expected on the way to Seven Stars would be like me giving you a hard time for taking a specific trip to Rincon and losing that night. I could ask, "Why did you go there if you were going to lose?", and your (valid) response would be, "I had no way to tell whether it was going to be a losing night or a winning night until I played."

I can only go by the expected loss to get to Seven Stars. I might beat it and actually win (like if I had hit even one royal), or I might go the other way and lose more than expected. But the only basis I can use as to whether or not it's worth it is by the amount it costs me versus the amount I then get out of it.

Second, I prefer to stay at the Rio during the WSOP. It is WAY more convenient.

Third, I don't know where you're getting $8000.

On a 99.17% expectation bonus poker machine, you can reach Seven Stars with an average loss of $4150.

On a higher expectation machine such as ACE$, your average loss expectation is $3000.

There is admittedly a lot of variance, but that's the average house take on 150,000 tier credits (if bonus tiers are acquired optimally) with perfect play.

Some of this loss is also negated by freeplay and RCs earned during the play.

Also, based upon the trick I recently realized, I can get TWO years of Seven Stars out of it, rather than just one.

Given that I use the cruise, the annual trips (including 2 in 2013), the GGWU, the freeplay, the gas card promotions, and many hotel rooms (often when I'm not playing at all), I am getting plenty out of my "investment" in earning Seven Stars. Indeed, I was told that I am "overcomped" and way past what a player of my activity level would normally be entitled to.

Also, Alan, just because I don't enjoy VP as much as you doesn't mean that I don't enjoy it at all. Like you, I enjoy the excitement of trying to hit those big payouts, and the anticipation of drawing that elusive 5th card to the royal. It's something I wouldn't want to do every day, or for many hours straight, but I enjoy it enough to where I have a good time doing it.

It is possible to both be an advantage player AND enjoy what you're doing at the same time.

Of course it would have been nice to have run better and hit a royal during my play, but I chalk that up to the same bad luck as when I lose badly at regular poker. Sometimes you run better than expected, and other times you run worse.

[Dan Druff]

Now I'll say this.

If God himself came down last year and said, "Todd, when you play video poker this year, you aren't going to hit any royals, and you're going to run far below expectation", would I have still played and earned Seven Stars?

No. But there was no way to know that.

Similarly, if God told me in 2009 or 2012 that I was going to only cash in one event in the World Series of Poker each of those years, I also wouldn't have bothered playing. But I don't have God telling me my gambling results in advance, and neither does anyone here (except maybe Rob Singer, apparently).

I can only go by, "Given the expected loss, and how much I will use the benefits I get, will this be worth it for me?"

If the answer is yes, then I did the right thing by playing.

[Alan Mendelson]

First off, you are correct that I am a net loser in video poker. But could I have predicted that I would hit zero Royals on my path to Seven Stars? No. That's just how it fell for me. Giving me a hard time for losing more than expected on the way to Seven Stars would be like me giving you a hard time for taking a specific trip to Rincon and losing that night. I could ask, "Why did you go there if you were going to lose?", and your (valid) response would be, "I had no way to tell whether it was going to be a losing night or a winning night until I played."

No. I don't go to any casino with the intention of winning because I am a recreational player and only a recreational player. I go to have some fun... and the thrills of playing whether it be video poker and craps. I play with a limited, controlled amount of money -- money I deem appropriate for this form of entertainment. I do not have plans or desire to make it a career, nor do I think I can make it a career.

If I really wanted to make money, I could guarantee myself a profit selling covered calls in the stock market.

I certainly have a desire to win when I play, and for that reason I play the best games at the best strategy, but my life will not come apart if I don't. And heaven knows I haven't been a long term winner at casino games. Yet, I have certainly had my share of fun and enjoyment.

I can only go by, "Given the expected loss, and how much I will use the benefits I get, will this be worth it for me?"

If the answer is yes, then I did the right thing by playing.

This is where Rob Singer is right: this attitude makes you a victim of the casinos. You cannot justify losses because of the benefits you receive because the benefits will never match the value of your losses.

Let me repeat that: THE BENEFITS YOU RECEIVE WILL NEVER MATCH THE VALUE OF YOUR LOSSES.

[odinoka]

I personally, do not care much about 7 Stars status, because only appealing benefit to me is an annual trip... now, when airline prices went up, but trip still covers only $1, 200 and all difficulties you need to go through to arrange your air tickets that 7 stars “Elite” status really does not hold much benefit to me... if I will reach it-fine, if not –why should I care?

Honestly, I would not be visiting AC CET's properties much at all if I would not have friends living in the area I love to spend time with, but as many other players I am recently looking for a better deals from other casinos.Will be kind of sad to become ‘EX” CET customer after being in CET program for almost 15 years...but CET management/ accountants should understand customer needs better... customer LOYALITY is based on what CET have to OFFER to me...

As I said I do not care much about the status , but some people, whale players especially DO (or DID???) care.....now-closer to the point....

It was very unpleasant trip-2 CETs property I visited was packed indeed... with a lot of unhappy Seven Stars players who came for the renewal /gift event...horrible atmosphere to play...very negative.

That is a list of complains I heard:

"Vera Wong frame? Seriously?"

"$65 ticket to Jay Leno? Last raw in the theater? What a joke!"

"Food at the cocktail party made my stomach upset!" (cursing)-yes, it was some REAL cursing)...

Some people were going to complain to their casino hosts (poor hosts, I feel sorry for you to take all the hit from upset 7 Stars) .

What else people complained about?

Easy to guess-Horrible changes in videopoker:

“1 point for $25 in?”

“Progressive video poker removed...why???”

“New machines are not random!!!!(Especially on Saturday, xaxa)”

“They (read CET) took all fun away from gambling! Now I feel that it is a job-work for points instead of having fun!!!”

“Diamond members are treated better!!!!”

“They think we are so addicted that will come back does not matter what..."

“I will not come back...”

“I will not too” and so on!


Will they come back?

What is your bet???

[Count Room]

If I really wanted to make money, I could guarantee myself a profit selling covered calls in the stock market.

Alan: There are still two distinct risks here with covered calls:

a) The underlying stock declines in value by an amount greater than the contract premium you collected

b) Your underlying stock goes way up in price. Once beyond the strike price + your collected premium you're missing out on the gains beyond that level.

Options are a wonderful tool, to be sure, but there's still no free lunch I'm afraid.

[Dan Druff]

This is where Rob Singer is right: this attitude makes you a victim of the casinos. You cannot justify losses because of the benefits you receive because the benefits will never match the value of your losses.

Let me repeat that: THE BENEFITS YOU RECEIVE WILL NEVER MATCH THE VALUE OF YOUR LOSSES.

How can you say that? Have you done the calculations?

Would you be saying the same thing if I hit a royal for 20k last year and was up overall in VP?

[Count Room]

How can you say that? Have you done the calculations?

Would you be saying the same thing if I hit a royal for 20k last year and was up overall in VP?

Not to butt in on this chat, but I think the more accurate statement would be the "value of your comps will never exceed your THEORETICAL losses"

[regnis]

With everyone complaining about the reduced comps and other ways in which Caesars has lowered their service and general treatment of customers, why do you keep giving them your business. The only way to speak to the gorilla is financially--don't give them your money.

Churchill Downs just opened on Saturday. They are the Caesars of horse racing. They have instituted an increased "takeout" (basically their hold on every bet) this year. On win Place and Show bets, the takeout has been raised from 16% to 17%. That is an increase of over 9%.

On exotic bets, the takeout has been raised from 19% to 22%, an increase 0f over 15%.

So as not to get overly technical, the increased takeout reduces the payout on every winning bet. It's like reducing Bonus Poker to 6-5.

But we horseplayers are trying to unify to let them know that this is unacceptable. We are boycotting Churchill Downs. We will not bet their races. Some of us, including me, will bet the Derby this weekend because the gigantic handle inflated by novices makes it one of the three best days to bet and receive value. But we will not bet Churchill Downs the rest of the year.

This tactic did work several years ago at the California tracks that tried to impose a similar increase.


SO STOP GIVING CAESARS YOUR DOLLARS. Otherwise, you shouldn't complain.

[Alan Mendelson]

Let me give my explanation for my continued patronage of Caesars:

1. It's the best deal I can get. If I moved to another casino company it would take me at least a year of heavy play to work up to the what I have from Caesars now. Using Dan Druff's formula -- even without any play I am 7 Stars through March 31 of 2016.

2. I've run into "trouble" playing at several MGM properties and I would not enjoy playing certain games at those properties because of the "heat."

3. I really like what I get at Caesars -- the hotel, the restaurants, the shows, the total environment.

Now, regnis makes a good point and indeed I have altered how I play at the Las Vegas properties and I have cut back on video poker play dramatically, and in fact I am 7 Stars because of my play at Rincon with its fullpay games and not because of my play in Vegas.

After my "drop in visit" to the Rio on Monday when I turned $500 of free play into $1,132 of "take home cash" I received a call from a host at the Rio who asked if I'd like to return for another visit? I said "no" because they changed the video poker dramatically since I was there a couple of months ago and I have no interest in returning there. A couple of months ago I played $1 8/5 Bonus and on Monday I played $1 7/5 Bonus which is what they have at Caesars. At Rincon they have 8/5 Bonus and Aces and Faces even at the 25-cent level.

I said to the host -- if you want me back there give me a good free play offer that would make me go back there. Next time I get a $500 free play certificate I could just as easily use it at Caesars or Flamingo or Planet Ho.

[Dan Druff]

Alan, glad you spoke up about the VP degradation at Rio.

Maybe if enough people tell them to go suck an egg when they "invite" them back to play 7/5 Bonus, things will change back to what they were.

[Alan Mendelson]

Alan, glad you spoke up about the VP degradation at Rio.

Maybe if enough people tell them to go suck an egg when they "invite" them back to play 7/5 Bonus, things will change back to what they were.

From time to time, I am invited to have dinner with a top exec at CET. I won't identify them here, but it is a private dinner -- just the two of us. I am picked because of being a 7Stars player but I also think it has to do with my business -- it never hurts to talk to a guy in the media who also happens to be quoted in the LVRJ from time to time on casino matters.

I mention this because during a dinner about a year ago I mentioned to a high level exec that his pay tables on VP sucked. And as a result his machines were empty, including in the high limit room. I said to him something like this: even if you had so-called full-pay machines you would still make a profit off of them. Now, you have a lot of machines with empty seats and zero revenue. Well, he looked like me like I was talking Martian. I really think the bean counters have absolutely no knowledge of marketing or even how to run a casino.