Any Experience with M Resort $500 Loss Rebate?

[Alan Mendelson]

The real question is simply this: is it physically possible for a player at one table to monitor the cards at another table?

Kewlj told me to check out any casino on the west side of the Vegas Strip. I was already familiar with the setup at Caesars and Bellagio, so I chose the Mirage.

Given the spacing between tables and the likelihood that there would be other players, and that the dealer/player action at the two tables would not be in sync I seriously doubt anyone could monitor the action at a second table that could give them the type of count that a counter/AP would say gives them an advantage.

I think the idea of counting two tables is nothing but wishful thinking.

So far has anyone gone to a casino to take a seat at one table and reported back on how many cards they actually viewed correctly at a second table?

So far no one has. At best we've gotten excuses that the method is not accurate or complete, even from RS and kewlj.

In theory counting at two tables sounds great. In theory dice influencing sounds great. In theory betting full 100X odds at craps sounds great. In theory playing only +EV games sounds great.

How do the casinos keep their doors open?

Someone please sit down at a blackjack table and post a photo of the cards at the neighboring table. Show us you can see the cards.

Show us.

[regnis]

I'm still missing the point of hopping tables if you're missing cards.

Yes, I understand that unseen cards already dealt are the same as unseen cards still in the deck, but it has to be tough to keep track of a true count if you've missed a substantial number of cards already dealt.

Without that true count, how are you going to place accurate bets?

Wouldn't it be better to just table-hop when the next table's shoe is over? Or if you don't want to attract attention that way, just table-hop and min-bet until the shuffle?

Exactly. And going back to the example Kewl raised where he saw the cards currently on the table and that particular deal made the deck +6 so he jumps in. What if the overall deck was -10? You have no way to know that. It just seems that you are giving yourself a false sense of what the shoe may be if you haven't seen every card.

I agree that a pro like you can take a quick look and get a "net" count on every deal. But if you haven't seen the rest of the shoe are you really in a position to jump on that +6. Again, I am not criticizing you Kewl and I like reading your stuff, but a couple of things, like the 2 table track and the idea that you don't need to see the whole shoe I find questionable. I wouldn't take the risk of jumping in mid-shoe and assuming my count is anywhere near accurate. But then again, I stopped doing this 30 years ago because it just wasn't fun to me.

[bocce ball]

It just seems that you are giving yourself a false sense of what the shoe may be if you haven't seen every card.

I would describe it as incomplete rather than false. It's analogous to playing a game with poor penetration. It would only be false if the observed cards are somehow biased. For example, if the player next to third base stands up and blocks your view every time he's dealt a blackjack, your count may be unrealistically positive because the cards you missed were mostly negative.

[Alan Mendelson]

I would describe it as incomplete rather than false.

Okay, it's "incomplete" and not "false." Are you happy now? It means the same thing. But of course you're going to want to nitpick that.

[bocce ball]

Are you happy now?

Yes.

[AxelWolf]

To my good friend Mickey Crimm, I must ask: Why on earth did you recommend this site? There are more people in denial and 'alternative realities' here, than any site we have participated at.

If you haven’t noticed after visiting and participating in several different forums, it appears to be the same small group (give or take) of alleged self-proclaimed AP’s talking endless un-proven AP shit. Axelwolf, Wizardofnothing, RS, you, jbjb, and the rest of that same group want for some reason to brag across the internet about how smart they are, yet can’t and won’t prove a single word. I know, I know, they can’t. So, explain why they would even want to post anything on any forum.

I know you personally feel obligated to share your experiences simply to help and groom future AP wannabes who may have the wrong idea of card-counting. Yet, other than sharing your alleged income, you really don’t share much about anything else with regards to your success. We know some basics things like you play cards, your partner drives and plays slots for comps. You just reveled you could count two tables at once. But, you really don’t share much of anything else. So, what actually is the reason for you posting here. If I wanted to be a successful card-counter like you, based on what your printing I might as well walk around with my finger in my ass.

Axelwolf claims he recruits team members from these sites. Imagine there is so much money to be made playing slots you need a team. Wizardofnothing is just a windbag with flapping lips.

So, when this same little group comes to where experienced veteran gamblers post, what are you expecting? Not that this site isn’t full mostly of bullshit like all the others, but the AP bullshit won’t go unchallenged here.

Please quote where I'm bragging about anything and talking endless shit. I have given a few examples here and there. I have said that I think outside the box when it comes to AP. You may not understand what that means, but I have given a few examples. To put it simply, while some people may jump on the highest return games for a casino promotion, like a 9/6 JOB, I may play somthing less obviouse that may consist of one of the lowest returning games inorder to to get the best value out of the promotion. I might look for an angle or lookpohle that others havent thought of. My goal is ussully high value low risk plays when possible its not always possible, oftentimes the obviouse high risk game is the best option.

Blackhole "If you haven’t noticed after visiting and participating in several different forums, it appears to be the same small group (give or take) of alleged self-proclaimed AP’s talking endless un-proven AP shit."


If you haven’t noticed after visiting and participating in several different forums, it appears to be the same small group (give or take) of doubters talking endless shit due to their lack of knowledge. IF THEY WERE TO PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS THAT MAY GIVE A REASON FOR SOMEONE TO PROVE SOMETHING.
"Oh there ain't no rest for the wicked
Money don't grow on trees
I got bills to pay, I got mouths to feed
There ain't nothing in this world for free."

Since I started posting, all but one person(who I have known for over 20 years) who I work with closely(some very intelligent "hard working" people) or is one of my partners, I have meet on the forums. It has been fun(at least for me) and lucrative for everyone involved. I have even found some people whom I have known from the past who I lost touch with. I have received some good information from various members and made some friends along the way. So what's your excuse for being here? I dont belive in bigfoot aliens or paranormal, even though I find the art of debunking it interesting, you won't find me wasting my time following around their members to different forums trolling them. It seems sad that you even wast your time on the gambling forums at all.

The people who believe and know it to be true far outnumber the trollish doubters.

The fact is there are many people on the forums that will vouch for, verify, lend credence to whatever I'm saying. So unless you think everyone is in on some big conspiracy, you are barking up the wrong tree at the wrong wolf. So, If you will excuse me, I want to do some more forum reading and then get ready to start my day and go make some money from the casino.

[MisterV]

There will always be doubters when claims of success at beating negative expectation games are made.

Look at the controversy over dice setting / dice influencing, for example.

Hey, if it's working for you just keep at it and disregard the scoffers.

[coach belly]

The fact is there are many people on the forums that will vouch for, verify, lend credence to whatever I'm saying.

That's a fact? Whatever you're saying? Who are these people?

LOL...textbook AP BS right there.

[bocce ball]

The fact is there are many people on the forums that will vouch for, verify, lend credence to whatever I'm saying.

That's a fact? Whatever you're saying? Who are these people?

In general, anyone who understands math.

[kewlJ]

Someone please sit down at a blackjack table and post a photo of the cards at the neighboring table. Show us you can see the cards.

A photo IS NOT representative of what the eye sees! Please see my post and photo in "how Alan should be treated" thread.

[kewlJ]

Exactly. And going back to the example Kewl raised where he saw the cards currently on the table and that particular deal made the deck +6 so he jumps in. What if the overall deck was -10? You have no way to know that. It just seems that you are giving yourself a false sense of what the shoe may be if you haven't seen every card.

I agree that a pro like you can take a quick look and get a "net" count on every deal. But if you haven't seen the rest of the shoe are you really in a position to jump on that +6. Again, I am not criticizing you Kewl and I like reading your stuff, but a couple of things, like the 2 table track and the idea that you don't need to see the whole shoe I find questionable. I wouldn't take the risk of jumping in mid-shoe and assuming my count is anywhere near accurate. But then again, I stopped doing this 30 years ago because it just wasn't fun to me.

Ok, a couple things here: Some of you people, including Dan Druff seem to have inserted something into the equation that I never said. When I track a table, whether the primary table that I am playing or a neighboring table, I start at the beginning....from the first round. I want as complete a count as I can get. AT MOST, my count will be off SLIGHTLY if I miss a card or two.

Example, second table I am tracking, the running count is +13 with 4 decks remaining. That is a true count of +3, which is significantly better than the table I am playing, so I jump tables. Now what if I have missed a couple cards and they were both ten value cards. Ok the actually running count is +11, with 4 decks remaining, rather than the +13 that I believe it is. +11 is still nearly a true count of +3 and more than a 1% player advantage. There is no possibility that the count can be off what some of you guys are suggesting.

What you guys may be being confused by is another example I gave, not of tracking the second table, which I do from the start, but of walking by a table in mid game and picking up the count. This is known as "wonging", a technique developed or made popular by Standford mathematician and well know, professional blackjack player Stanford Wong (John Ferguson).

In the case of "pure wonging" (which is not what I am doing at my second table), yes, you could pick up a count based on the cards you see that is very different than the actual count. Stanford Wong proved mathematically that even though it was possible that you are way off, that based only on the cards you see, you still are playing at an advantage. I am not a mathematic expert, so I don't know the details of that. I will take someone like Stanford Wong and other mathematicians that have confirmed this at their word. If you have issues with this concept, I suggest you take it up with Stanford Wong.

However, while occasionally I will empoly this "pure wonging" technique while walking through a casino, if I happen to see a table with many small cards on the felt, again....this is NOT WHAT I AM EMPLOYING at the second table that I am tracking. At the second table that I am tracking, I am seeing all the cards, or 99% of them.

[MisterV]

Arguing about card counting, wonging, etc. with someone who doesn't play the game regularly and who is not an AP is not likely to lead to a helpful give and take.

There is no need to justify your actions to anyone on these boards, let alone to the peanut gallery.

Oh sure, it is human nature to defend ourselves when attacked (even verbally), but just ask yourself this: why bother?

What have you got to gain?

FWIW, I see no downside in DISCUSSING AP with non-AP's, but ARGUING assumes both sides have a solid foundation in the subject at hand, and of course that is not the case here.

Even a house of glass needs a sound foundation.

[Alan Mendelson]

The photo shows that the tables are in a straight line and not bunched up into an arrangement where you can look directly at another table.

At a casino in Compton, California the tables are bunched with the dealers inside a pocket and you can easily look into the layout of the next table. Can't do that at Mirage.

[Alan Mendelson]

MrV card counting is a valid AP skill. But it's card counting at another table a player is not sitting at is in question.

[coach belly]

The fact is there are many people on the forums that will vouch for, verify, lend credence to whatever I'm saying.

That's a fact? Whatever you're saying? Who are these people?

In general, anyone who understands math.

What has he written that requires an understanding of math?

[blackhole]

IF THEY WERE TO PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS THAT MAY GIVE A REASON FOR SOMEONE TO PROVE SOMETHING.

I reached out to you, letting you know I was going to be in Vegas for 12 days which you confirmed you knew about, but had several reasons for not meeting up with me.

I no doubt would have taken you and your girlfriend out for a classy dinner. We could have shared lots during that time.

If you felt the need to lay down a bet to make your time worthwhile, we could have discussed the conditions in person. If I agreed to the conditions, I can assure I had access to more than enough money to cover any bet you wanted.

[MisterV]

I have an advantage at craps but you won't believe it.

Ahem.

[MisterV]

MrV card counting is a valid AP skill. But it's card counting at another table a player is not sitting at is in question.

OK, but what about this?



Sure, it's a movie, but art often imitates life.

[Alan Mendelson]

Interesting movie scene but that's two players at work reading the dealer hole card. Our friend kewlj claims that he can sit at one BJ table and count cards at the table where he sits AND at the next table.

Now, speaking about art imitating life, did you notice in the movie that the blackjack cards were dealt face down? Will kewlj claim he can also count cards at a table where cards are dealt face down?

LOL. He might as well say yes and go for the gusto.

[Rob.Singer]

To my good friend Mickey Crimm, I must ask: Why on earth did you recommend this site? There are more people in denial and 'alternative realities' here, than any site we have participated at.

If you haven’t noticed after visiting and participating in several different forums, it appears to be the same small group (give or take) of alleged self-proclaimed AP’s talking endless un-proven AP shit. Axelwolf, Wizardofnothing, RS, you, jbjb, and the rest of that same group want for some reason to brag across the internet about how smart they are, yet can’t and won’t prove a single word. I know, I know, they can’t. So, explain why they would even want to post anything on any forum.

I know you personally feel obligated to share your experiences simply to help and groom future AP wannabes who may have the wrong idea of card-counting. Yet, other than sharing your alleged income, you really don’t share much about anything else with regards to your success. We know some basics things like you play cards, your partner drives and plays slots for comps. You just reveled you could count two tables at once. But, you really don’t share much of anything else. So, what actually is the reason for you posting here. If I wanted to be a successful card-counter like you, based on what your printing I might as well walk around with my finger in my ass.

Axelwolf claims he recruits team members from these sites. Imagine there is so much money to be made playing slots you need a team. Wizardofnothing is just a windbag with flapping lips.

So, when this same little group comes to where experienced veteran gamblers post, what are you expecting? Not that this site isn’t full mostly of bullshit like all the others, but the AP bullshit won’t go unchallenged here.

Please quote where I'm bragging about anything and talking endless shit. I have given a few examples here and there. I have said that I think outside the box when it comes to AP. You may not understand what that means, but I have given a few examples. To put it simply, while some people may jump on the highest return games for a casino promotion, like a 9/6 JOB, I may play somthing less obviouse that may consist of one of the lowest returning games inorder to to get the best value out of the promotion. I might look for an angle or lookpohle that others havent thought of. My goal is ussully high value low risk plays when possible its not always possible, oftentimes the obviouse high risk game is the best option.

Blackhole "If you haven’t noticed after visiting and participating in several different forums, it appears to be the same small group (give or take) of alleged self-proclaimed AP’s talking endless un-proven AP shit."


If you haven’t noticed after visiting and participating in several different forums, it appears to be the same small group (give or take) of doubters talking endless shit due to their lack of knowledge. IF THEY WERE TO PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS THAT MAY GIVE A REASON FOR SOMEONE TO PROVE SOMETHING.
"Oh there ain't no rest for the wicked
Money don't grow on trees
I got bills to pay, I got mouths to feed
There ain't nothing in this world for free."

Since I started posting, all but one person(who I have known for over 20 years) who I work with closely(some very intelligent "hard working" people) or is one of my partners, I have meet on the forums. It has been fun(at least for me) and lucrative for everyone involved. I have even found some people whom I have known from the past who I lost touch with. I have received some good information from various members and made some friends along the way. So what's your excuse for being here? I dont belive in bigfoot aliens or paranormal, even though I find the art of debunking it interesting, you won't find me wasting my time following around their members to different forums trolling them. It seems sad that you even wast your time on the gambling forums at all.

The people who believe and know it to be true far outnumber the trollish doubters.

The fact is there are many people on the forums that will vouch for, verify, lend credence to whatever I'm saying. So unless you think everyone is in on some big conspiracy, you are barking up the wrong tree at the wrong wolf. So, If you will excuse me, I want to do some more forum reading and then get ready to start my day and go make some money from the casino.

All self-serving nonsense from one of the biggest bsers on the forum circuit.

Axel loves to portray his anonymous self as some hot-shot/money-makin' "AP" who trots around town outsmarting casinos at their own game (the math, duh) but all he does is claim secrecy whenever anyone requests proof-of-claims. Then bocce come on in an obvious failed attempt to save face by giving the age-old excuse these ap's regularly throw out there about how they win and why they just can't release the trick behind their phantom bucks extravaganzas:THE MATH!!

Your pal kew didn't help your cause very much by making that ridiculous claim about accurately keeping count at his and another table before jumping, did he axel. You see how stupid and foolish you ap's look to people who actually gamble successfully?