Dan Druff: shit or getoff the pot

[Dan Druff]

I was explaining to someone in Vegas the other day regarding this forum and Alan. They stumbled upon this place and didn't understand all of the drama.

I told them, "Alan was the original founder and owner of this forum, and he gave it to me when it became too much of a hassle for him to continue running. He was about to shut it down, and I offered to keep it going, both to preserve the old messages and to keep it active with new ones. At that point he became a regular user. The problem is that Alan loves to post stupid and controversial things here, some of which I think he's just pretending to be stupid/ignorant for the sake of getting APs upset. So then a lot of these guys who used to post on WoV joined this forum, and took a quick dislike to him. Then Alan wants me to ban these people, and gets mad when I don't. This puts me in a bad position, because I want to show some extra respect to Alan for having started this place and run it all these years, but he just won't understand that he creates a lot of his own problems, and that it seems to me like he's purposely aggravating people, and then crying foul when they respond angrily."

The sad thing here is that Alan isn't a complete garbage poster. He does post some useful information and some good discussion topics. However, he also posts a lot of crap, and seems to take the contrarian view (especially to a lot of the AP stuff) just for the sake of getting under people's skin.

[mickeycrimm]

Do you think there's another forum moderator wimp like Dan who would let you post on WOV now?

Where do you come up with this shit? Who in the fuck said I want to post on WoV now? Fuck that forum. They changed the rules since I was there. Who in the hell wants to kiss all that ass. If they were to let me back on I would call Romes, Darkoz, Ams288 and that scumbag of all scumbags Billryan just what they are. A bunch of pussified, lowlife, scumsucking, bottomfeeding, hairball, fascist, nazi, punk bitches. Everyone of them need their asses kicked and bitchslapped clean into next Tuesday.

So you read it daily? But you just can't/don't post there? If i was booted or excluded myself from a forum, I would never visit that forum again.

You are obsessed with gambling. Hopefully your new/old GF can lead you away from your gambling addict behavior.

Fuck off candy ass bitch. Kj is right. I've seen you're punk shrimp ass. Five nothin'. A hundred nothin'. Just the right height to suck Shack's dick. Your hero is putting out misleading information on the AGS 5K's too. Now let's talk about how all you do is run multiple cards on freeplay to make a living. Scumbag bullshit. You're not a gambler. You're a fucking cheater. You work skippers too. That is, until you got your punk asses busted. You're a disgrace to the profession.

[Alan Mendelson]

My "crap" Dan is often asking the so-called APs to justify their claims such as plays worth $800 an hour or... OMG here we go again... that accumulating +EV spiel.

Instead of getting real answers I get blasted and you have the nerve to first ban these people and then allow them back because you want to be part of the AP secret society.

Maybe you want to explain the $800 an hour plays and accumulating EV while losing thousands of dollars?

[monet]

Fuck off candy ass bitch. Kj is right. I've seen you're punk shrimp ass. Five nothin'. A hundred nothin'. Just the right height to suck Shack's dick. Your hero is putting out misleading information on the AGS 5K's too. Now let's talk about how all you do is run multiple cards on freeplay to make a living. Scumbag bullshit. You're not a gambler. You're a fucking cheater. You work skippers too. That is, until you got your punk asses busted. You're a disgrace to the profession.

I have been posting about this for over a year now.
About time someone else understands what AW is all about.
You forgot to mention how he constantly loses tickets or gets the funds mixed up/counted wrong.
Many other little tricks as well but who really gives a fuck.
Partners with WoN/RobSingerWho... enough said.

5 nutin, hundred nutin, drunk ass... etc etc.

[Dan Druff]

Where do you come up with this shit? Who in the fuck said I want to post on WoV now? Fuck that forum. They changed the rules since I was there. Who in the hell wants to kiss all that ass. If they were to let me back on I would call Romes, Darkoz, Ams288 and that scumbag of all scumbags Billryan just what they are. A bunch of pussified, lowlife, scumsucking, bottomfeeding, hairball, fascist, nazi, punk bitches. Everyone of them need their asses kicked and bitchslapped clean into next Tuesday.

So you read it daily? But you just can't/don't post there? If i was booted or excluded myself from a forum, I would never visit that forum again.

You are obsessed with gambling. Hopefully your new/old GF can lead you away from your gambling addict behavior.

Fuck off candy ass bitch. Kj is right. I've seen you're punk shrimp ass. Five nothin'. A hundred nothin'. Just the right height to suck Shack's dick. Your hero is putting out misleading information on the AGS 5K's too. Now let's talk about how all you do is run multiple cards on freeplay to make a living. Scumbag bullshit. You're not a gambler. You're a fucking cheater. You work skippers too. That is, until you got your punk asses busted. You're a disgrace to the profession.

While it's a bit confusing, I think Axel was directing that at Alan. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

[monet]

So you read it daily? But you just can't/don't post there? If i was booted or excluded myself from a forum, I would never visit that forum again.

You are obsessed with gambling. Hopefully your new/old GF can lead you away from your gambling addict behavior.

Fuck off candy ass bitch. Kj is right. I've seen you're punk shrimp ass. Five nothin'. A hundred nothin'. Just the right height to suck Shack's dick. Your hero is putting out misleading information on the AGS 5K's too. Now let's talk about how all you do is run multiple cards on freeplay to make a living. Scumbag bullshit. You're not a gambler. You're a fucking cheater. You work skippers too. That is, until you got your punk asses busted. You're a disgrace to the profession.

While it's a bit confusing, I think Axel was directing that at Alan. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

He was, however Mickeycrimm finally called it the way it really is.
Everyone knows AW is behind the scenes in PMs constantly setting up new fish and blowing Shack.
Why do you think AW constantly PMed me to stop posting about FP and Pulling Cards and where/how to play.
Finally he just gave up and ignored me... Thankfully.
Candy Ass.

[Dan Druff]

My "crap" Dan is often asking the so-called APs to justify their claims such as plays worth $800 an hour or... OMG here we go again... that accumulating +EV spiel.

Instead of getting real answers I get blasted and you have the nerve to first ban these people and then allow them back because you want to be part of the AP secret society.

Maybe you want to explain the $800 an hour plays and accumulating EV while losing thousands of dollars?

The problem is that a lot of this can't be explained without giving away plays to the public, which ruins them very quickly.

I know you'll say that's a copout, but that's the truth.

I'll give you a simple example.

Let's say I found a machine at the Rio which is Jacks or Better, but is set to 10/8 instead of 9/5.

This would be a +EV machine, and I'd play it all day and night.

If I found such a machine, do you think I'd post it up here?

Obviously not. Word would spread, and not only would it be very difficult for me to get a seat at that machine (other APs would swarm it), but soon enough the casino would audit the play, realize a disproportionate amount is coming on that machine, and figure out the mistake. And the play would be dead.

Some form of this happens all the time.

Now, yes, some APs will brag about winning a fortune, when in reality they're losing or just getting by. That's because the AP world is sometimes a pissing contest (as you've seen both here and WoV), and few want to say that they're losing or barely winning, or it makes them look incompetent (even if they're just on the wrong side of variance). While it's true that some will falsify their results when posting on these forums, for the most part the +EV plays they talk about are real and legit.

If you pay close enough attention, you will realize that.

[monet]

Fuck off candy ass bitch. Kj is right. I've seen you're punk shrimp ass. Five nothin'. A hundred nothin'. Just the right height to suck Shack's dick. Your hero is putting out misleading information on the AGS 5K's too. Now let's talk about how all you do is run multiple cards on freeplay to make a living. Scumbag bullshit. You're not a gambler. You're a fucking cheater. You work skippers too. That is, until you got your punk asses busted. You're a disgrace to the profession.

Thank You Button.
Thumbs Up.
Right On.
Post of the Year.

You forgot to mention about trying to sell Gift Cards on Forums... LOL!

[blackhole]

Just based on all the forums talking and bragging about AP’ing and how AP’s are using casinos for their private ATM’s, combined with all the merchandise being sold by alleged successful AP’s from the good ole days to beat the casinos, along with all the past news worthy plays that were exposed, some of which ended up in court cases for all to see, is certainly not going unnoticed by the casinos.

I didn’t know jack shit about AP’ing, but I certainly read and learned enough just reading assorted forums and articles that would enable me along with casino specialists and technology to put an end to it, if I worked at one.

I’m also convinced that if plays like the multi-card use is of any concern to them, they will put a stop to it. What AP’s might be getting away with today you could be certain the casinos don’t care about or eventually will put an end to it. Not only will they put a stop to cash leaks they will eventually protect their main source of losing gamblers.

Other than some big scheme like the Phil Ivey baccarat maneuver most AP plays will be reduced to the two-bit Mickey strategy, and that’s provided they don’t get annoyed with that move.

Today with gambling forums, search engines, etc., anyone if they wanted could figure out how to do it and be just as creative. Think about it for a second, if an un-educated guy like Mickey, and many other claims of homeless people becoming pro-AP’s, just how hard could it be. Having a Harvard degree doesn’t appear to be a requirement.

You read all the time how AP’s or teams are fighting over must hit slots not able to get a seat. Stalking seats all night hoping to find an opening or not losing it to an old grand-ma. And in response to your Dan Druff's poker game example above, do you think you're the only one that found it. How long could it last?

If I was young and was an AP, I would be preparing myself for an alternate.

[blackhole]

Fuck off candy ass bitch. Kj is right. I've seen you're punk shrimp ass. Five nothin'. A hundred nothin'. Just the right height to suck Shack's dick. Your hero is putting out misleading information on the AGS 5K's too. Now let's talk about how all you do is run multiple cards on freeplay to make a living. Scumbag bullshit. You're not a gambler. You're a fucking cheater. You work skippers too. That is, until you got your punk asses busted. You're a disgrace to the profession.

Thank You Button.
Thumbs Up.
Right On.
Post of the Year.

You forgot to mention about trying to sell Gift Cards on Forums... LOL!

What the hell is going on here? AP's calling out the famous AXEL as a fraud?

For the record, I went to the Bogota to meet the WON in A.C. He didn’t show, but before going I was in a back-door way via PM warned by Axel that everyone is not what they appear to be on forums in person. Trust me when I tell you I was in no fear of WON. If anyone thinks I would meet a stranger from a forum at a casino with pockets loaded with cash alone is disabled.

When I offered to meet Axel in Vegas, which he never responded to till I went home I also was warned not to by a different alleged AP (not WON). Once again, I was with others and really just wanted to invite him and his girlfriend to dinner with us.

It appears what he does post on forums is always just some wise ass remarks. WON did most of his hustling via PM’s. All my contacts with WON and Axel were both via PM’s. One could only wonder what does go on with PM’s.

Then again, regardless what you guys are saying, Bozo swears he’s the top gun. So who’s right here?

[monet]

I only know a few things and it is enough.
Constantly Drunk.
Fell Over Drunk in front of me.
Passed out Drunk in my car.
Told the story of Djatc blowing 50k of the teams money playing BJ without authorization from the team.
Story told directly from the Wolfs mouth to me, not sure if ZK was in earshot to hear it.
Most likely embellished the story since he is a big talker of sorts.
Enjoys talking about the glory days.
In reality perhaps it was only 5k.
Who Knows?
Who Cares?
I told you that the real Vegas or Hustle or AP is not what is discussed on the boards.
Like anything else in life it is always different in person, compared to the classroom.

[blackhole]

I told you that the real Vegas or Hustle or AP is not what is discussed on the boards.
Like anything else in life it is always different in person, compared to the classroom.

So, if you eliminate all the different plays and angles we read about over the years, and you have to agree the list is endless including all mathematical possibilities, there are still unknown plays that could support a healthy life and future for the select few in the know?

In other words, you’re saying today AP’s are still withdrawing endless amounts of cash right in the front of casino eyes? If so, how long do you think it will last? Of course I'm talking about casino games and marketing. Not WON maneuvers.

[monet]

I told you that the real Vegas or Hustle or AP is not what is discussed on the boards.
Like anything else in life it is always different in person, compared to the classroom.

So, if you eliminate all the different plays and angles we read about over the years, and you have to agree the list is endless including all mathematical possibilities, there are still unknown plays that could support a healthy life and future for the select few in the know?

In other words, you’re saying today AP’s are still withdrawing endless amounts of cash right in the front of casino eyes? If so, how long do you think it will last? Of course I'm talking about casino games and marketing. Not WON maneuvers.

You completely misunderstood my point.
My point was that nothing goes according to plan.
Anything said or written down or drawn up is always more than what it actually is.
My point is that no matter what you choose to do for material gain you are going to most likely have a struggle.
Once on WoV they were trying to say that the average AP makes 100k per year.
I said that was completely false.
No reason for me to keep going on and on and on.
My point was that most people in general are struggling.
I see no reason that some Gambling Forum should change the outcome of everyday statistics.

Yes you have rare cases of APs or whatever making millions but that is not the norm.
The norm is a grind like anything else.
If you own a business you are going to be at a 66% chance of losing or breaking even.
That is a rough estimate and I tend to believe it is higher but the point is Life is not Easy no matter what these posts or members type down.

One thing is for certain.
It all can come crashing down at any moment.
(For anyone in anything)
You can bank on that.

[blackhole]

Hey Bozo,

The Mick and Monet are ganging up your Classy Top Gun AP.... No response from his biggest fan ... you ???

[mickeycrimm]

Hey Bozo,

The Mick and Monet are ganging up your Classy Top Gun AP.... No response from his biggest fan ... you ???

Blackbitchole, explain to us what the two-bit Mickey strategy is?

[monet]

Blackbitchole, explain to us what the two-bit Mickey strategy is?

MC, You on a roll today!
Thank You for the Posts!

[Moses]

My mothers husband had to be the worst gambler on earth. From him, it was easy to learn what not to be or do. What a moron! My Dad was a great guy and we became really good friends later in life. I wish I would've had him here longer. He loved the horses.

So my role models were a Coach (who was certifiably crazy, I'm kidding) and a Jewish boss, who taught me how to make money, and more importantly, how to make the money I made, make money. I hated being poor so I'm thankful those two guys crossed my life's path.

I'd never thought about this in terms of EV or AP. I never worried about whether I'm a pro or not. Seems like a self professed term to me. I mean there is no draft that I'm aware of and where does one get their professional license. The DMV? I ain't standing in that fucking line.

I didn't go out and choose this life. It sort of chose me. But I suppose it's a good fit as I'm a competitor who doesn't back down and won't quit. But my biggest opponent or challenge is the person inside of me. It's like most jobs or playing sports. You work your ass off to get better, or the best you need to be, in order to win. Then you go to your place of employment (the casino) and go to work or the arena and play the game. I've had better jobs but the hours are great.

Seems to me the major obstacle that is overlooked by the so called APs is the investment of time. I can only wish the money fell in my lap as easily as it does for many on those blackjack forums. I mean just show up and win everyday. What a wonderful concept? Or travel with all expenses paid and come home with loads of money every time. Never practice, never do a thing to improve except get advice from the Pros.
I had an expense paid job that paid as much as $1,000 an hour. But the travel became too much. Thus I'm not seeing how one travels chasing long term EV with no guarantees and a family to raise. Sooner or later you will break, either financially or something inside.

IMO many have not put in the work necessary in order to save their time. No my circus. Not my monkey.

[mickeycrimm]

My "crap" Dan is often asking the so-called APs to justify their claims such as plays worth $800 an hour or... OMG here we go again... that accumulating +EV spiel.

Instead of getting real answers I get blasted and you have the nerve to first ban these people and then allow them back because you want to be part of the AP secret society.

Maybe you want to explain the $800 an hour plays and accumulating EV while losing thousands of dollars?

The problem is that a lot of this can't be explained without giving away plays to the public, which ruins them very quickly.

I know you'll say that's a copout, but that's the truth.

I'll give you a simple example.

Let's say I found a machine at the Rio which is Jacks or Better, but is set to 10/8 instead of 9/5.

This would be a +EV machine, and I'd play it all day and night.

If I found such a machine, do you think I'd post it up here?

Obviously not. Word would spread, and not only would it be very difficult for me to get a seat at that machine (other APs would swarm it), but soon enough the casino would audit the play, realize a disproportionate amount is coming on that machine, and figure out the mistake. And the play would be dead.

Some form of this happens all the time.

Now, yes, some APs will brag about winning a fortune, when in reality they're losing or just getting by. That's because the AP world is sometimes a pissing contest (as you've seen both here and WoV), and few want to say that they're losing or barely winning, or it makes them look incompetent (even if they're just on the wrong side of variance). While it's true that some will falsify their results when posting on these forums, for the most part the +EV plays they talk about are real and legit.

If you pay close enough attention, you will realize that.

The problem with some of these guys like Alan and blackhole is they think they can insult there way into finding out what the play is. Like if they insult someone long enough, call him a liar, phony, fraud, he will finally go "Okay, assholes, here's the play, this is A,B,C,D how to do it. See there! I showed you chumps."

AP's learned the hard way about posting good plays up on the internet. Things happen, the least of which is Alan and Blackhole knowing about the play. Neither has the knowledge and skill to exploit it although hubris tells them they can if they just knew.

One person can slip under the radar on a $200 an hour play. But ten people doing it is going to attract attention and the play will get squashed. To many pigs at the trough. And many plays haven't gotten squashed the day after they get posted on the internet. Casino exec is watching.

Saying "I have an $800 an hour play" is not telling the whole story. I have a $400 an hour play in Montana. Unfortunately, I can only get in maybe 10 hours a year on the play. That's how slow it is for plays to develop on that particular game. It's a 15 minute play worth about $100. I get about 40 plays a year. I could go around bragging I make $400 an hour but I wouldn't be telling the whole story.

The $800 an hour play is/was probably just some temporary play that lasted maybe a weekend.

[mickeycrimm]

Blackbitchole, explain to us what the two-bit Mickey strategy is?

MC, You on a roll today!
Thank You for the Posts!

Thanks. I might have over amped on Axel though. I'm thinking Dan is right. I took it like Axel was firing me up. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. Yes, I read WoV everyday. But I cruise a lot of forums everyday. They can call me that unedumacated bullshit all they want. They don't write, spell and form sentences any better than me. I'm a vociferous reader of all things gambling on the internet. Living in a pine forest in Montana, I would have never known about the new generation of exploitable slots that have hit the casino floors the last couple of years, and new games are still coming, if I wasn't cruising the internet everyday looking for any and all information gambling related.

Those clowns can call me uneducated all they want. But there is one area they can't compete with me. Not even come close. I'm self taught in it in the sense that there was no teacher in my presence. I learned it all out of books in the library many years ago. I burned the midnight oil to learn it. I would fall asleep every night with a calculator pencil and paper in my hands. THE MATHEMATICS OF GAMBLING. I know it backwards, forwards, up and down. They don't. They are uneducated in gambling. I knew I had to know it if I was going to blaze my own trail.

[monet]

Since Bill Yung isn't around I will post this in his absence.

“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
- Albert Einstein -