casino cheating

[monet]

Are anonymous internet posts considered evidence of dealer cheating?

Are anonymous internet questions considered questions?

[mickeycrimm]

Mickeycrimm... I think kewlj provided the link about dealer cheating for us to realize that this was BS.

That what is bs?

[kewlJ]

Mickeycrimm... I think kewlj provided the link about dealer cheating for us to realize that this was BS.

100% wrong Alan. Was I unclear in my initial post? I provided the link to this discussion because I found the poster at least somewhat credible and wanted players, both AP's and non-AP to read and decide for themselves. As time has gone on, and this poster has posted additional information, I actually find him even more credible. But I want people to decide that for themselves.

I will tell you this much though. To ignore the long history of Las Vegas, the casino industry and cheating, and decide that it is inconceivable for casino cheating to occur is a mistake. History is full of cheating, by individual dealers and casino wide. Dealing seconds, false shuffles, missing cards.

And anyone that thinks NGC is there to protect AP's doesn't know THAT history either. NGC will protect the general public, but in cases involving AP's and the casino industry, NGC almost always sides with the industry. It is the courts who have provided some justice to AP's. Or in some instances bringing a case to court was necessary before NGC finally stepped in and did the right thing. Mind play is one such case. Obvious casino cheating, violating NGC very own rules of using a device to alter the outcome. Yet NGC approved the use of this technology and it wasn't until a case was about to go to court, that they finally stepped in. I have other examples, but am not going to fill the page with them.

Bottom line, anyone who thinks this industry, the same industry who over-serves patrons with alcohol and cashes paychecks before daddy can make it home to pay the rent or get to the grocery store, is above cheating, just is ignoring history. I am not saying cheating is widespread. I don't believe it is. I am saying don't be so naïve (Alan). Be vigilant and protect yourself and your money.

[monet]

Mickeycrimm... I think kewlj provided the link about dealer cheating for us to realize that this was BS.

100% wrong Alan. Was I unclear in my initial post? I provided the link to this discussion because I found the poster at least somewhat credible and wanted players, both AP's and non-AP to read and decide for themselves. As time has gone on, and this poster has posted additional information, I actually find him even more credible. But I want people to decide that for themselves.

I will tell you this much though. To ignore the long history of Las Vegas, the casino industry and cheating, and decide that it is inconceivable for casino cheating to occur is a mistake. History is full of cheating, by individual dealers and casino wide. Dealing seconds, false shuffles, missing cards.

And anyone that thinks NGC is there to protect AP's doesn't know THAT history either. NGC will protect the general public, but in cases involving AP's and the casino industry, NGC almost always sides with the industry. It is the courts who have provided some justice to AP's. Or in some instances bringing a case to court was necessary before NGC finally stepped in and did the right thing. Mind play is one such case. Obvious casino cheating, violating NGC very own rules of using a device to alter the outcome. Yet NGC approved the use of this technology and it wasn't until a case was about to go to court, that they finally stepped in. I have other examples, but am not going to fill the page with them.

Bottom line, anyone who thinks this industry, the same industry who over-serves patrons with alcohol and cashes paychecks before daddy can make it home to pay the rent or get to the grocery store, is above cheating, just is ignoring history. I am not saying cheating is widespread. I don't believe it is. I am saying don't be so naïve (Alan). Be vigilant and protect yourself and your money.

Have these guys never studied or read about who owns or runs these Casinos?
Take a look at their lives and you will find nothing but criminal activity.

One example would be Benny Binion.

Binion's FBI file reveals a criminal history dating back to 1924, listing offenses such as theft, carrying concealed weapons, and two murder convictions.
In 1931, Binion was convicted of shooting and killing an African American rum-runner, Frank Bolding, "cowboy style."
This was the origin of Binion's "Cowboy" nickname.
Binion received a two-year suspended sentence.

By the early 1940s, Binion had become the reigning mob boss of Dallas.

The Chicago Outfit made a successful move into Dallas after World War II.
With the 1946 election of a Dallas County Sheriff Steve Gutherie, Binion lost his fix with the local government and fled to Las Vegas.

He also had to serve 5 years for Tax Evasion.
This is only one example.

The Mob is alive and well in Las Vegas.
An example in the last 12 years or so:

Three county supervisors, Kenney, Herrera, Kinkaid-Chauncey, were convicted of corruption and did Federal time.
Had to do with Strip Club licensing and zoning.
Seems a San Diego connected club owner paid for favors from the County Board of Supervisors.

HOA in Las Vegas is completely Mobbed Up.

Does everyone think the people in charge of modern day Casinos are fine upstanding young citizens?
I love how all of you honest church goers claim nothing but morality in these houses of iniquity.
Nothing but Evil Doing all around you but we are supposed to believe a few Internet AP posters are the honest ones.
Very difficult to swallow.

[MaxPen]

Speaking of over serving, I was in Palace Station and some dude took a face plant into a bank of machines after leaving the tables. Busted his face open and passed out on the floor. Took forever for the security to get an ambulance. Cops came and noone seemed interested in questioning any server about the guys consumption. These casinos will serve a customer with chips to lose until they pass out or cannot muster another buy-in.

[tableplay]

Mickey posted a youtube video showing a BJ dealer dealing 2nds from a shoe to beat the player with a higher sub-21 total than the player. Yet the thread continues to go on with people questioning that the casinos don't cheat - weird.

[Alan Mendelson]

So the dealer was a magician who not only could shuffle the cards in such a way that he could clump the tens together... but the clump of tens would survive even after the player inserted the cut card and at least one cut, if not two cuts, were made?

And you believe this because someone posted this on an Internet forum?

Okay.

[kewlJ]

Speaking of over serving, I was in Palace Station and some dude took a face plant into a bank of machines after leaving the tables. Busted his face open and passed out on the floor. Took forever for the security to get an ambulance. Cops came and noone seemed interested in questioning any server about the guys consumption. These casinos will serve a customer with chips to lose until they pass out or cannot muster another buy-in.

This is the reason, I don't play weekend nights as much as I should. As a very occasional/ light drinker now (as opposed to my earlier years) I don't appreciate all the drunks at the table. And it is really good cover for someone at my level to play at such times....the whole "playing in the shadow of larger bettors".

[kewlJ]

So the dealer was a magician who not only could shuffle the cards in such a way that he could clump the tens together... but the clump of tens would survive even after the player inserted the cut card and at least one cut, if not two cuts, were made?

And you believe this because someone posted this on an Internet forum?

Okay.

Ok good, I meant to address this when you said it earlier. Alan a guy dealing cards 8 hours a day for 20-30 years basically is a magician. He will develop the same skill set, without all that much effort. And if he decides to put a little effort into it or is encouraged as this Nightshifter claimed, yeah, he would basically be a magician.

I don't automatically believe everyone on the internet, No. But I don't automatically dismiss them either. You know my saying. "It doesn't take that much to figure out who knows what they are talking about and who is just talking". I haven't completely decided what this guy is yet. But I find him credible enough to listen.

If you don't want to..... don't. But your view that casinos and the casino industry is so righteous is shocking from someone who has spent as much time in the casinos as you have. I think you are rather naïve.

[monet]

Speaking of over serving, I was in Palace Station and some dude took a face plant into a bank of machines after leaving the tables. Busted his face open and passed out on the floor. Took forever for the security to get an ambulance. Cops came and noone seemed interested in questioning any server about the guys consumption. These casinos will serve a customer with chips to lose until they pass out or cannot muster another buy-in.

I never seen anyone happy when they get cut off.
As a matter of fact I used tell them I will just walk across the street, get served and lose my money over there.
I always felt the Casino should give everyone a free bottle of whiskey if they consume it in their Casino.
The only exception is Apaches... everyone knows you can't give Indians alcohol.

When I worked in the Casino as a Floor Person in Poker I used to have to cut off or throw out the drunks.
I would just laugh and talk with them and tell them listen... I don't want to cut you off but this is from above.
The best thing you can do is cash out and walk across the street.
They will serve you and you can play in that game over there.
If you have problems over there you just walk down the block to the next Casino.
Most of the time they took that advice.

[tableplay]

So the dealer was a magician who not only could shuffle the cards in such a way that he could clump the tens together... but the clump of tens would survive even after the player inserted the cut card and at least one cut, if not two cuts, were made?

And you believe this because someone posted this on an Internet forum?

Okay.

If you are replying to my post, please re-read it. I wrote that there is proof that BJ dealers (and thus casinos) cheat as shown in the YouTube video of live play at an online casino. I did not comment on the link that KewlJ posted so I am not sure how you got that from my post (assuming you were replying to it). Given that there is proof that casinos cheat, dismissing the information in the link outright is wanton. You are not an expert card mechanic so assuming that someone is incapable of using an advanced technique in a dealt game to clump cards is foolish IMHO. A highly-skilled dealer may know some shuffles from the fresh ordered deck that bring certain cards together for a time. So a caveman doesn't understand fire and calls it magic.

[Alan Mendelson]

No tableplay I was not referring to you. Dealing second cards even from a shuffling machine is relatively easy.

I'm talking about a slight of hand trick that boggles the imagination. We are supposed to believe that a dealer is able to arrange a clump of tens thru shuffling and then the clump survives the cuts?

This dealer would make a ton of money at The Magic Castle in LA. LOL

[monet]

So the dealer was a magician who not only could shuffle the cards in such a way that he could clump the tens together... but the clump of tens would survive even after the player inserted the cut card and at least one cut, if not two cuts, were made?

And you believe this because someone posted this on an Internet forum?

Okay.

If you are replying to my post, please re-read it. I wrote that there is proof that BJ dealers (and thus casinos) cheat as shown in the YouTube video of live play at an online casino. I did not comment on the link that KewlJ posted so I am not sure how you got that from my post (assuming you were replying to it). Given that there is proof that casinos cheat, dismissing the information in the link outright is wanton. You are not an expert card mechanic so assuming that someone is incapable of using an advanced technique in a dealt game to clump cards is foolish IMHO. A highly-skilled dealer may know some shuffles from the fresh ordered deck that bring certain cards together for a time. So a caveman doesn't understand fire and calls it magic.

I used to know a couple of baccarat dealers who could do some amazing things that you had to see to believe.
I do believe that Casino dealer cheating is rare these days but I am sure it still happens.
Cheat them before they cheat you.

[Alan Mendelson]

Kewlj I'm not naive. Just show it to me. You're the one who is naive because you're believing what someone posted on the Internet.

[Alan Mendelson]

What's amazing here is that several years ago I told how I was invited to a demonstration at a Strip casino where a dealer could target four adjacent slots on a roulette wheel.... AND NO ONE BELIEVED ME. Yet, here without any eyewitness account you are believing that someone who claims to be a dealer can shuffle cards into a clump of tens and preserves the clump even after at least one cut... after the shuffle is completed and the player inserts the cut card.

[kewlJ]

Kewlj I'm not naive. Just show it to me. You're the one who is naive because you're believing what someone posted on the Internet.

No, No, No Alan! Why do I have to keep repeating things with you. It really is frustrating. I believe there is rare and not wide spread casino cheating because I believe it has happened to me on several occasions, one ongoing for months. I am not only talking of two different ASM situations at different casinos that I have previously mentioned, but have at least 2 situations where I believe I was cheated by a dealer (two specific dealers at two different casinos) repeatedly, until I figured out something was not right. In hindsight, I suspect dealing seconds, but am not sure. I just know something was not right.

This poster, Nightshifter, is not telling me anything new that I haven't heard before (well actually a little bit is specifics).

So to put that in perspective, having played upwards of a million rounds of blackjack, I probably have played against thousands of dealers, and I suspect 2 of "mechanic" type cheating. I am NOT talking a conspiracy theory where I think every time I lose I am cheated like some (Zenking). Hell, I am 3 months into a losing period and don't think I have been cheated in that time. (maybe I have...who knows)

[Alan Mendelson]

Look at what the dealer claimed to do:

I would purposely keep a "chunk" of 10s and Aces in an area that most people would cut out and wind up behind the cut card via offset shuffling. You really see this in 2 Deck games

He not only clumped the tens together in TWO DECKS but was able to get the player to insert the cut card so the clump of tens would not be played.

You believe this?

Well, I'd have to see it.

[monet]

What's amazing here is that several years ago I told how I was invited to a demonstration at a Strip casino where a dealer could target four adjacent slots on a roulette wheel.... AND NO ONE BELIEVED ME. Yet, here without any eyewitness account you are believing that someone who claims to be a dealer can shuffle cards into a clump of tens and preserves the clump even after at least one cut... after the shuffle is completed and the player inserts the cut card.

I never seen that post since it was before I joined.
I don't think I would ever doubt that a Roulette Dealer could do this under ideal conditions.
The way I understand it the Casino frowns upon this type of activity and has certain regulations in place to thwart it.
Depends on the wheel style, speed and other factors.

1. The spin of the ball
2. The spin of the wheel
3. The small diamond nibs that interrupt the path of the ball as it falls into the drop zone
4. The raised number edges

I have heard dealers claim they can get it within four spaces of their target.
You say you were invited to a demonstration?
Did you go and witness this dealer who could deviate the odds?

Here is an interesting read on the subject...

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/can-r...-extent-marcus

[MaxPen]

What's amazing here is that several years ago I told how I was invited to a demonstration at a Strip casino where a dealer could target four adjacent slots on a roulette wheel.... AND NO ONE BELIEVED ME. Yet, here without any eyewitness account you are believing that someone who claims to be a dealer can shuffle cards into a clump of tens and preserves the clump even after at least one cut... after the shuffle is completed and the player inserts the cut card.

There are definitely roulette dealers than can sector target a roulette wheel. Not that it does any good to reason with you but here's a couple questions for you.
What difference does cutting the clump make?
Why do alot of stores reject cuts from customers that only take off a few cards?

[Alan Mendelson]

MaxPen think about it for a moment. What percentage of two decks is made up of tens?

Player inserts the cut card, after the tens are clumped.

Now what is the likelihood that the clump of tens is preserved? And what is the likelihood that the clump of tens is moved to the back of the two decks so they are not dealt?

This magician would not only be able to clump the tens but would have to be a psychic to know where the player inserts the cut card.

In fact he claimed that ability. See:

I would purposely keep a "chunk" of 10s and Aces in an area that most people would cut out and wind up behind the cut card via offset shuffling. You really see this in 2 Deck games

And he did this with only two decks which gives him virtually no margin for error.