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Thread: The Wiz and the Challenge

  1. #1
    Finally, something pretty interesting at WoV.

    Check out his VP speed challenge.
    What, Me Worry?

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by MisterV View Post
    Finally, something pretty interesting at WoV.

    Check out his VP speed challenge.
    What is interesting about it?

    As the "shooting" thread veered off topic today, towards discussion of gambling related sites, I made reference to this exact thing. This competitive side of many on these sites. Everything and I mean everything is a "pissing contest". It's like perpetually being stuck in third grade. And Mike takes it to the extreme....the food eating contests come to mind.

    So tell me what benefit there is to this contest? How does anyone benefit by it?

    I want to play as quickly as I can play and still be accurate because.....that is how you maximize profits. Take profits out as this silly contest does and for what? I don't get it....maybe it's me.

    This takes me back to that "goofy" rope climbing contest with Joshua Chan, at the purchase of Woo/wov. Everything a competition? This guy Shackleford must be a real hoot to live with. I can see it now....the dinner challenge in the Shackleford home....first one to finish dinner while riding backwards on a unicycle is king of the Shackleford mountain for the day.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 10-11-2017 at 08:27 PM.

  3. #3
    Nothing "wrong" with a pissing contest, a circle jerk, or a "whose is biggest" competition.

    Boys will be boys.
    What, Me Worry?

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by MisterV View Post
    Nothing "wrong" with a pissing contest, a circle jerk, or a "whose is biggest" competition.

    Boys will be boys.
    Mike is not a boy....he is a 50-something year old man. But you are correct, he is stuck at that "boy" level. Like I said, perpetual third grade.

  5. #5
    KJ, men sometimes like to act like boys, typically when some form of sporting competition is involved.

    For example, when I shoot pool or play darts it takes me to a different place, a place without worry or care or focus on the terrible realities of the modern real world.

    Too bad you can't seem to relate.
    What, Me Worry?

  6. #6
    Maybe it is me. Maybe I can't relate. The only person I am ever completing with is myself. When I have a friendly game of ping pong, or darts or a video game with my brother or a friend, it is much less about winning or losing and just enjoying the company of that person. I don't need to score more points than my friends or brother to feel good about myself....to make myself feel superior to anyone.

    But anyway, maybe that's just me. So if you think Mike's little challenges are "interesting"....enjoy yourself. Seriously...to each his own.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Maybe it is me. Maybe I can't relate. The only person I am ever completing with is myself. When I have a friendly game of ping pong, or darts or a video game with my brother or a friend, it is much less about winning or losing and just enjoying the company of that person. I don't need to score more points than my friends or brother to feel good about myself....to make myself feel superior to anyone.

    But anyway, maybe that's just me. So if you think Mike's little challenges are "interesting"....enjoy yourself. Seriously...to each his own.
    Ya, my GF, sister and mother don't really like competitions either. Most men DO like competitions of all kinds. I think you are the odd man out.

    Eating competitions are not my taste, but I certainly like competing in other things on occasion. This country is the most competitive country in the world and it's a good thing.

    Don't you like watching sports and the Olympics, Isn't all that just one big competition?

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    This country is the most competitive country in the world and it's a good thing.
    Are you sure about this? I am not so sure.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    This country is the most competitive country in the world and it's a good thing.
    Are you sure about this? I am not so sure.
    I believe competition was a major factor in making America a great and powerful country(IMO it IS still a great country, we don't need to make it great agian, we just awlays need to work on making it better than it is).
    You had the railroads competing and guys like Carnegie, Rockefeller, Morgan competing, the auto industry.

  10. #10
    Of course men like competing. I don't think I've ever played a game simply "for the fun of it". Of course videos games and sports are fun.....but are much more fun when you win. Some things are better for just fun and others for competition. I'm not going to compete with someone if I'm out on a hike or rock climbing (not that I do either of those) or something like that. But if I'm playing a game or in some other competitive situation, I'll be damned if I'm not trying my hardest to win. I'd hate to play ping pong against someone who isn't trying to win. Fun fact: I beat Wizard at ping pong, quite handily I might add. Would'a been nice if he agreed to $100/pt...lol

  11. #11
    I don't much see the point in someone who's in a "mentoring" position trying to get people to test to see how fast they can play a primarily negative expectation game that's often referred to as "the crack cocaine of gambling." That's like the dude who can handle white lightning prodding you into a drinking contest.

    Really, isn't that the point of most of the free promotional video poker tournaments? To get people conditioned to play fast as hell, and to practice a bit playing fast as hell? It all works out in the casino's favor in the long run.

    So why promote such a thing? It isn't in the best interests of anyone but yourself, if you're showing off, and the casino's best interest as well.

    You know, WoVers can't have it both ways. You shouldn't go raking recreational "ploppies" over the coals (I never use that "ploppies" term) for bad plays while promoting something that's not likely to be good for them.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    So why promote such a thing? It isn't in the best interests of anyone but yourself.
    Sometimes, I think that V still owns gambling related stock. Now, I think he enjoys the thought of people choking (to death) in eating contests (while they pray to God that they don't).

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    I don't much see the point in someone who's in a "mentoring" position trying to get people to test to see how fast they can play a primarily negative expectation game that's often referred to as "the crack cocaine of gambling." That's like the dude who can handle white lightning prodding you into a drinking contest.

    Really, isn't that the point of most of the free promotional video poker tournaments? To get people conditioned to play fast as hell, and to practice a bit playing fast as hell? It all works out in the casino's favor in the long run.

    So why promote such a thing? It isn't in the best interests of anyone but yourself, if you're showing off, and the casino's best interest as well.

    You know, WoVers can't have it both ways. You shouldn't go raking recreational "ploppies" over the coals (I never use that "ploppies" term) for bad plays while promoting something that's not likely to be good for them.
    I would think that anyone interested in doing this is already an AP. If they were to do this on a .5 denomination with a bad paytable it would cost less than $10 in EV.

    Some people want to be praised or whatever, and they are willing to pay a few bucks for the honor, it's a daily occurrence in life.

    Mike has asked me a number of times to get the ball rolling with this and at least establish a starting number. This is not the first time it has been proposed.

    I don't know how fast I can play without mistakes, but I'm sure I could put up a respectable number. On the older machines, I used to be able to play a 10/7 double bonus and an FPWD at the same time and even watch someone playing next to me for mistakes(I have no doubt I was making some mistakes myself). When they started cracking down more on VP players I stopped playing 2 machines at the same time. Nowadays the machines are so fast I don't think playing 2 will help much, but I could be wrong.

    When Mike brought it up It just wasn't something I was all that interested in. I know damn well no one can keep up the speeds they are looking for, at least not for very long without making a bunch of mistakes and attracting attention. I'm not sure what having the title of the fasted VP player gets you. I would rather see if someone could maintain 800 hands and hour with minimal mistakes and get in 125 hours a week for a month straight.

    I would only want to play super fast if the casino was running a good promo, a promo that more than made up for mistakes made and the extra hands you got out really counted. Perhaps a double on 4 of a kind promo.
    Last edited by AxelWolf; 10-12-2017 at 03:58 AM.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    I don't much see the point in someone who's in a "mentoring" position trying to get people to test to see how fast they can play a primarily negative expectation game that's often referred to as "the crack cocaine of gambling." That's like the dude who can handle white lightning prodding you into a drinking contest.

    Really, isn't that the point of most of the free promotional video poker tournaments? To get people conditioned to play fast as hell, and to practice a bit playing fast as hell? It all works out in the casino's favor in the long run.

    So why promote such a thing? It isn't in the best interests of anyone but yourself, if you're showing off, and the casino's best interest as well.

    You know, WoVers can't have it both ways. You shouldn't go raking recreational "ploppies" over the coals (I never use that "ploppies" term) for bad plays while promoting something that's not likely to be good for them.
    For APs, playing fast certainly has its benefits. If you're playing something straight up, you can get more hands in during your 4, 8, or 12 hour shift. Granted, there's the "fatigue" factor, where you might make more mistakes the longer you play, especially at fast speeds. In my experience, it doesn't seem like I'm making any more mistakes near the end of a long session compared to the beginning. If anything I just play a bit slower.

    If you're playing a promotion or need to hit a goal of X and then you're done, then playing fast means you'll be in the casino for less time than a slower player would. A "goal" would be to play until you get X amount of points, win or lose a certain amount, or hit a certain hand (ie: if you get paid extra on a RF or 4oak).

    One problem I see with some players is trying to play so fast it looks like they're flapping their arms or something and it just looks weird. But that's just bad technique.....you don't need to hit the button 10 times, one or two will do.


    I don't think many non-APs are interested in a speed competition, at least, I don't think they should be (but who am I to judge?).

  15. #15
    I'm surprised this contest wasn't held before. The credo of VP APs is that they have an advantage on every hand they play so it makes sense to play at the fastest pace possible.

    Let's see how these superhumans do since they consider +EV video poker machines their personal ATMs.

    Remember these same people say there is no reason to quit when they have their advantage so it always should be full steam ahead.

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    This country is the most competitive country in the world and it's a good thing.
    Competition is a necessary thing.

    But not all competition is equally productive. The video poker challenge clearly has real-world relevance, whereas the eating challenges are probably more dubious. In the USA, we have non-productive competition in the form of crony capitalism. Success in business is often achieved by obtaining favors from government, and using government as a weapon against rivals.

    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Nowadays the machines are so fast I don't think playing 2 will help much, but I could be wrong.
    Originally Posted by RS__ View Post
    One problem I see with some players is trying to play so fast it looks like they're flapping their arms or something and it just looks weird.
    Faster machines is a really good thing, especially if you're worried about attracting attention. I try to keep my hands quiet, and I've only rarely had people comment that I was playing fast. It's impossible to play two machines without being noticed.

  17. #17
    Kind of funny....a couple machine AP's, Axel and RS voice express that they have no interest in this kind of competition, as it serves no purpose, and probably is counter-productive to players development. And Alan comes on saying "he thinks it's a great idea....full steam ahead". Shows the difference in mentality between AP's and non AP's. Nothing wrong with that, as Alan is not an AP. It just continues to highlight some of the goofy things he says and does are so out of touch with how AP's think.

    Anyway, speed is only important, if you maintain accuracy. In my own household, I have a guy, my partner, who handles most of the machine play and he plays too fast IMO. I occasionally see him make mistakes and miss seeing things. It is especially easy to miss a pair if they are on opposite ends, when you are going too fast. Sometimes I say something and he gets defensive. Sometimes I say nothing. But really like in blackjack card counting, just a couple mistakes cuts into a very slim profit margin. Accuracy should be first, speed second. Anyone focusing on speed as the primary objective is bound to be sacrificing accuracy.

    In card counting, there is a drill "counting down a deck" that is universally done as a practice drill. Flipping over a card at a time while keeping a running count. All the MIT teams, and Tommy Hyland's teams before that used this drill and I am sure others before that. But the drill is almost completely meaningless. It is in no way representative of how one should count at the tables. Yet, on blackjack sites, you regularly see mention of this drill and players proudly proclaiming times of 18 second, 15 second, 13 second.
    Last edited by kewlJ; 10-12-2017 at 08:43 AM.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    I occasionally see him make mistakes and miss seeing things. It is especially easy to miss a pair if they are on opposite ends, when you are going too fast.
    If you're missing pairs, I agree you're playing too fast. On rare occasions, I'll miss seeing a correct hold, but I'm pretty sure I usually realize it just as I've pressed the draw button. Now I'm aware of the mistake, so I know I need to slow down. I think it's similar to when you're playing blackjack and the dealer pays your non-winning hand, but then mentally catches himself as he's scooping the cards.

    The bigger concern for me occurs when the machine buttons are not in perfect order. Then I may find I need to slow down to be sure each card is properly held as I press the buttons.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Kind of funny....a couple machine AP's, Axel and RS voice express that they have no interest in this kind of competition, as it serves no purpose, and probably is counter-productive to players development. And Alan comes on saying "he thinks it's a great idea....full steam ahead". Shows the difference in mentality between AP's and non AP's. Nothing wrong with that, as Alan is not an AP. It just continues to highlight some of the goofy things he says and does are so out of touch with how AP's think.
    Actually it's just logic. And it's their logic.

    If the APs say that every hand they play at +EV VP gives them an advantage then by all means they should play as fast as they can and as much as they can. In fact, they say they only stop for exhaustion or eating or bathroom breaks. They say since they have an advantage they should keep on playing and keep on playing and keep on playing. Yes, that's exactly what they say. Which is also why they reject win goals and loss limits -- because they have a +EV.

    So that is their logic. I didn't make this up.

    Again, you're new here. You should go back in the archives of this site and read what they wrote. And how they say if they have a +EV game there is no reason to stop. Therefore, the faster they can play the better. It's what they said. And it doesn't take an "AP" to understand what they said.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by bocce ball View Post
    The bigger concern for me occurs when the machine buttons are not in perfect order. Then I may find I need to slow down to be sure each card is properly held as I press the buttons.
    Probably the thing I hate most about machine play is the frequency that buttons don't work and skip.

    A couple years ago at South Point, which was in my regular machine play rotation, but not blackjack as they are too sweaty, I held 3 aces and only two held and what would have been the fourth ace came up. I raised hell. It was the difference in $7.50 and $200. At first they told me nothing they could do, and when I told them to hold the video, because my attorney would contact them, they relented and paid me. I had no intention of getting Bob involved for $200....just leverage

    So I got my $200 but have not received mail on that account since. Spiteful pricks!

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