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Thread: Advantage play / cheating / crime....where is the line?

  1. #721
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by redietz View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    I remember when Rob announced his retirement from "professional video poker play" I blasted him with "Who in the hell would retire a winning system?" In hindsight, and knowing what I know now, Rob wasn't retiring from his system play, he did that in 2004 when he found the glitch. He was retiring from the game king glitch because it wasn't available anymore. He pretty much didn't need video poker anymore.

    If it were me, and I was grinding out 100K a year working legitimate advantages, then found a glitch that made me 500K a year for several years, then the play ended, there would be no way I would go back to the regular grind. With my financial position at that point I would have little incentive to go back to a grind play.
    And you, mickey, probably wouldn't publicly comment on an actual video poker AP's recent death by proclaiming "eat dirt" with his family reading and mourning, thereby getting axed by Gaming Today. Can't blow one's cover, eh?
    I was one of the first to criticize Rob for that obit. But I don't think Rob was fired over that. If GT found it so offensive then why did they publish it? I think Chuck di Rocco relished the controversy that Rob brought. When he died of course now Rob is dealing with someone else with different ideas.

    Nobody edited the columnists, mickey, if that's the question. If I had published a hundred columns there, I could have sneaked through one recommending devil worship. Unless you put it in the first or last paragraph, it wasn't going to get caught.

    Gaming Today caught hell for that column.

  2. #722
    All my articles were sent through Managing Editor David Stratton. But he was basically told by the Owner/Publisher Chuck DiRocco to leave my writings as-is. He recognized how popular my column was, and he was ecstatic that I wasn'tjust another Ship Hughes or Bob Dancer--both of whom he fired the day he brought me on board. In fact, the only article that was ever doctored during his reign was the one about when I put down the Fezzik/LVA bet. I don't remember the modest title I gave it, but they changed it to "Gaming Today Columnist Lays Down The Gauntlet"

  3. #723
    I used to subscribe to the Skip Hughes newsletter. Good information and written humorously. Can't remember what it was called but you had to pay to get it. vpFREE, the yahoo forum for video poker players, was founded so that information could be obtained at no cost. Hence the name, vpFREE.

    So while lots of vpFREE'ers condemned Rob for the Hughes obit, they certainly didn't like being charged by Hughes.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  4. #724
    Yes he did have an informative newsletter. Early on, a group of his members invited me in to speak to them at his monthly gathering at the Reserve. But soon after he heard about the excitement of getting me in he sent me a scathing email complete with name-calling, disinviting me. He had written a negative review of my book, which I expected so it was no big deal. But I think having people in his group actually wanting to hear what I had to say was too much for the guy. And nobody deserves to have to suffer thru and die of esophageal cancer. I just wish he were still around to hear the rest of the story.....

    However--those were the days. Places like The Reserve, opening with every one of their vp machines having all full-pay/mostly over 100% games on them up through $5, don't come along any more. Now it's a Stations wasteland littered with 6/5BP and a few good games.

    I don't find playing vp very fun or interesting any longer anyway. If Kane never stumbled across that play I'd have probably played it another 10 years max, or until I got tired of the drive. The thrill was gone, and age stops everything anyway. And I wouldn't have said a thing until I was 80, or until my will was opened if that came first. Yeah I tried to keep my interest in the game going by playing some hi-limit for a few years after I had to stop, but it didn't do the trick for me and only made me have to pay a lot of the winnings back in taxes since I wasn't filing as a professional any more.
    Last edited by Rob.Singer; 06-05-2019 at 10:00 AM.

  5. #725
    Well, Walgreens system had a glitch a little while ago where EVERY transaction was handing out $4 Register Rewards. And even using the RR gave ANOTHER $4 rewards. It wasn't hard to see people take advantage of the glitch. I basically got free breakfast and lunch for two days with that glitch! The glitch didn't last long as Corporate quickly fixed the glitch, boo!(I knew that the $4 coupon glitch wouldn't last long) That's an unfireable advantage, not cheating.

  6. #726
    Since most knowledgeable gamblers are always looking for some kind of an edge from any means possible, I thought it appropriate to post a few of the plays that had these "edges" from my past. I wanted to locate one of my old programs so I could plunk the numbers in and come up with the theoretical edges I played, but I can't find them. Maybe someone here could enjoy doing it. Remember, these pay tables are exactly how I played these games. I accepted every FH down to High Pairs just as the pay table paid them. But any higher winners were always moved up in denomination, and only one time per casino visit on any machine. These are examples of what I played, and everything is interchangeable as long as you keep the correct ratios in mind.

    DDBP played on a $1 thru $10 machine

    High Pair-----------------------------------5
    Two Pair------------------------------------5
    Trips----------------------------------------15
    Straight------------------------------------20
    Flush----------------------------------------30
    Full House--------------------------------45
    Quad 5's - K's------------------------2500
    Quad 2's - 4's------------------------4000
    Quad 2's - 4's w/A, 2, 3, 4------8000
    Quad A's-------------------------------8000
    Quad A's w/2, 3, 4---------------20000
    SF-----------------------------------------2500
    RF---------------------------------------40000

    SDBP played on a 25c thru $5 machine

    High Pair-------------------------------5
    Two pair--------------------------------5
    Trips------------------------------------15
    Straight-------------------------------20
    Flush-----------------------------------25
    Full House---------------------------40
    Quad 5's - 10's-----------------5000
    Quad 2's - 4's-------------------8000
    Quad J's - K's-----------------12000
    Quad A's------------------------16000
    SF-----------------------------------6000
    RF---------------------------------80000

    TBP+ played on a $1 thru $25 machine

    High Pair-----------------------------5
    Two Pair------------------------------5
    Trips----------------------------------15
    Straight-----------------------------20
    Flush---------------------------------25
    Full House------------------------45
    Quad 5's - K's-----------------6250
    Quad 2's - 4's---------------15000
    Quad A's----------------------30000
    SF-------------------------------12500
    RF-----------------------------100000

  7. #727
    Interesting. The other day I was on a machine that looked as if it was from this era. It had double up on it. The bill validator lit up at the right time, but it didnt take any bills. Feel free to PM me if im missing a step or something.

  8. #728
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Since most knowledgeable gamblers are always looking for some kind of an edge from any means possible, I thought it appropriate to post a few of the plays that had these "edges" from my past. I wanted to locate one of my old programs so I could plunk the numbers in and come up with the theoretical edges I played, but I can't find them. Maybe someone here could enjoy doing it. Remember, these pay tables are exactly how I played these games. I accepted every FH down to High Pairs just as the pay table paid them. But any higher winners were always moved up in denomination, and only one time per casino visit on any machine. These are examples of what I played, and everything is interchangeable as long as you keep the correct ratios in mind.

    DDBP played on a $1 thru $10 machine

    High Pair-----------------------------------5
    Two Pair------------------------------------5
    Trips----------------------------------------15
    Straight------------------------------------20
    Flush----------------------------------------30
    Full House--------------------------------45
    Quad 5's - K's------------------------2500
    Quad 2's - 4's------------------------4000
    Quad 2's - 4's w/A, 2, 3, 4------8000
    Quad A's-------------------------------8000
    Quad A's w/2, 3, 4---------------20000
    SF-----------------------------------------2500
    RF---------------------------------------40000

    SDBP played on a 25c thru $5 machine

    High Pair-------------------------------5
    Two pair--------------------------------5
    Trips------------------------------------15
    Straight-------------------------------20
    Flush-----------------------------------25
    Full House---------------------------40
    Quad 5's - 10's-----------------5000
    Quad 2's - 4's-------------------8000
    Quad J's - K's-----------------12000
    Quad A's------------------------16000
    SF-----------------------------------6000
    RF---------------------------------80000

    TBP+ played on a $1 thru $25 machine

    High Pair-----------------------------5
    Two Pair------------------------------5
    Trips----------------------------------15
    Straight-----------------------------20
    Flush---------------------------------25
    Full House------------------------45
    Quad 5's - K's-----------------6250
    Quad 2's - 4's---------------15000
    Quad A's----------------------30000
    SF-------------------------------12500
    RF-----------------------------100000
    Rob, I ran the DDBP on Winpoker. It came in at 304.8928%. Definitely the biggest video poker edge I've ever heard of. At 800 HPH, 4K an hour wager the play is worth $8200 an hour. And of course, hardly any bankroll is required to play it. If everything above the generic quads were discounted out of the payscale you would still be at 158%. Definitely the best video poker play I've ever heard of.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  9. #729
    You posting this confirms that deep down you know this is wrong, because these aren't the actual pay tables. They are the pay table you manipulated the machine to pay.

    furthermore the line "I accepted every FH down to High Pairs just as the pay table paid them. But any higher winners were always moved up in denomination", speaks volumes. It clearly shows that you didn't just take advantage of some machine error, but manipulated the machine to make that error. There is a difference.

    In a court of law the above line would be very damaging. But of course this isn't a court of law. This is a court of public opinion. And it so happens this particular court of public opinion is made up people (AP's and gamblers) that have an "anything goes against the casino attitude", completely ignoring the values of right and wrong that they were brought up with. And that's what we are talking about right and wrong. I accept it is not "illegal". Cheating? Well that is for each person to define and decide for themselves. But right and wrong...there is no grey area.

    You (rob) and others can pretend all you want. You can say whatever you want and/or need to justify your actions. But the truth comes through in both your actions, like not telling your family and friends for years, knowing they would disapprove if they really understood, and statements like this that reveal the truth. And the truth is you KNOW this is/was wrong. People sometimes are willing to accept doing things they know are wrong and I guess that is the case with you, but you can't hide the fact that you know it was wrong. Your actions and statements reveal that. You can't hide it and everything else is just being dishonest with yourself.

    But anyway, happy Father's day to you and all the other Fathers. Have a great day with your family and friends.

  10. #730
    The short and sweet of it is that if you sit down at a machine that has a pay table that states that four 3's pays 200 credits and playing a $1 you hit four 3's and manipulate the machine to pay you 2000 credits (the $10 level)….that is WRONG! There is no grey area. WRONG!

    Illegal? I guess not. Cheating? That is for everyone to decide for themselves. But there is no grey are in right or wrong. And if you think there is...well we will see how you fare trying to explain that to St Peter, Mr. former Alter Boy. And I hope that day is far off.

  11. #731
    I did not know we had a member who is a Psychologist, an Attorney, a Mind Reader....and a Priest, all wrapped up into the world's most Righteous Soul! Thank you for the Father's Day greeting regardless. THAT tells ME that you feel you are in need of better earthly guidance.

    A 308% ddbp game mickey? And that's on a 10:1 ratio. The other two were 20:1 & 25:1. I think that's grounds for a book deal with Anthony Curtis!

  12. #732
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    The short and sweet of it is that if you sit down at a machine that has a pay table that states that four 3's pays 200 credits and playing a $1 you hit four 3's and manipulate the machine to pay you 2000 credits (the $10 level)….that is WRONG! There is no grey area. WRONG!

    Illegal? I guess not. Cheating? That is for everyone to decide for themselves. But there is no grey are in right or wrong. And if you think there is...well we will see how you fare trying to explain that to St Peter, Mr. former Alter Boy. And I hope that day is far off.
    Of course there are always grey areas in 'right and wrong'. And not only that, there are degrees of 'wrongness'.

    Grey Areas
    Is it always wrong to kill? What if it's in self defense? Is it always wrong to lie? What if lying saves a life? Is it always wrong to steal? What if stealing a loaf of bread keeps your family from starving?

    Degrees of Wrong
    Is it wrong to call someone names for no reason? Sure! But not as wrong as punching them in the mouth for no reason. And that's not as wrong as shooting them in the head for no reason.

    Is it wrong?
    So now we get the the real question...."Is it "Wrong" to legally exploit a Video Poker game's software flaw? I would argue that this is a competition between player and casino and as long as the player is behaving perfectly legally it's the casino's responsibility to make sure their machines are paying off as they expect. Otherwise, one day you may find yourself arrested for taking advantage of seeing the dealer's hole card....as the casino could claim they didn't intend for the player to know what the dealer had. It's a slippery slope.

    But even if you truly believe that it is wrong to exploit the double up flaw, how serious a transgression is it really? The bottom line is you took advantage of a casino....legally. Big deal. Are you really ready to moralize and condemn someone for that? Isn't that what all advantage players do every day? You're just arguing against the method they used to legally take advantage of casinos. The end result is the same.

    Humans do things that are 'Wrong' every day. They spit. They curse. They Smoke and Drink. They speed and run stop lights and disobey all kinds of traffic laws. Some believe Abortion is a right. Others feel it is a sin. The fact of the matter is that we are all 'sinners'. It's easy to get on a self-righteous high horse and point out moral transgressions in others before we really consider our own non-perfect lives. That's wrong too, eh?

    Ok...sometimes I wax a little philosophical.

  13. #733
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    The short and sweet of it is that if you sit down at a machine that has a pay table that states that four 3's pays 200 credits and playing a $1 you hit four 3's and manipulate the machine to pay you 2000 credits (the $10 level)….that is WRONG! There is no grey area. WRONG!

    Illegal? I guess not. Cheating? That is for everyone to decide for themselves. But there is no grey are in right or wrong. And if you think there is...well we will see how you fare trying to explain that to St Peter, Mr. former Alter Boy. And I hope that day is far off.
    Of course there are always grey areas in 'right and wrong'. And not only that, there are degrees of 'wrongness'.

    Grey Areas
    Is it always wrong to kill? What if it's in self defense? Is it always wrong to lie? What if lying saves a life? Is it always wrong to steal? What if stealing a loaf of bread keeps your family from starving?

    Degrees of Wrong
    Is it wrong to call someone names for no reason? Sure! But not as wrong as punching them in the mouth for no reason. And that's not as wrong as shooting them in the head for no reason.

    Is it wrong?
    So now we get the the real question...."Is it "Wrong" to legally exploit a Video Poker game's software flaw? I would argue that this is a competition between player and casino and as long as the player is behaving perfectly legally it's the casino's responsibility to make sure their machines are paying off as they expect. Otherwise, one day you may find yourself arrested for taking advantage of seeing the dealer's hole card....as the casino could claim they didn't intend for the player to know what the dealer had. It's a slippery slope.

    But even if you truly believe that it is wrong to exploit the double up flaw, how serious a transgression is it really? The bottom line is you took advantage of a casino....legally. Big deal. Are you really ready to moralize and condemn someone for that? Isn't that what all advantage players do every day? You're just arguing against the method they used to legally take advantage of casinos. The end result is the same.

    Humans do things that are 'Wrong' every day. They spit. They curse. They Smoke and Drink. They speed and run stop lights and disobey all kinds of traffic laws. Some believe Abortion is a right. Others feel it is a sin. The fact of the matter is that we are all 'sinners'. It's easy to get on a self-righteous high horse and point out moral transgressions in others before we really consider our own non-perfect lives. That's wrong too, eh?

    Ok...sometimes I wax a little philosophical.
    This whole post is liberalism 101. Since I am an anti-liberal, I’ve got to respond. First, you pulled out the old tried-and-true go-to-liberal argument to try to show right or wrong is relative. What is that? The “stealing the loaf of bread so your family doesn’t starve to death” hypothetical. It’s a great hypothetical situation to illustrate a point, but the problem is there is no where in the world where you can give an example where this has occurred. Even in Third World poverty stricken nations no one is in that situation. There are small menial jobs someone can do to afford a loaf of bread.

    Liberals usually use this example to excuse all the prisoners filling our prisons by stealing (and selling illegal) things. For the record, contrary to what liberals think, no one in America is stealing because their family is starving to death. It’s not occurring in the third world either.

    As far as different crimes having a different degree of wrongness to them of course that’s true. That’s why we have different punishments for different crimes. All crimes obviously don’t deserve the death penalty. I failed to understand the point you’re trying to make here.

    As far as if using the Double Up bug was wrong, KJ is right. It was wrong. There’s no moral relativism argument that can be used to make it right. Nester had to give all his winnings back to the casino once they caught him doing it. If what he was doing was right, he could’ve kept it.

    My view and the court’s view is that people should try to beat the casino’s games the way they were intended to be played. This is why courts in two different nations, America and England, ruled against Phil Ivey in his edge sorting scam.

    Saying all this, does not mean I wouldn’t have tried to take advantage of the double up bug if I came across it. But I certainly would not have been proud of myself or broadcast it to anybody that I did it. If I did something like this, I’d probably take it to the grave with me. But then I’d have to deal with St Peter and God on the other side so I don’t know if that’d be a good idea either.

    Bottom line is KJ is right on this one. Using the double up bug was wrong. There is no moral relativism argument they can be used to make it right.

  14. #734
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    The short and sweet of it is that if you sit down at a machine that has a pay table that states that four 3's pays 200 credits and playing a $1 you hit four 3's and manipulate the machine to pay you 2000 credits (the $10 level)….that is WRONG! There is no grey area. WRONG!

    Illegal? I guess not. Cheating? That is for everyone to decide for themselves. But there is no grey are in right or wrong. And if you think there is...well we will see how you fare trying to explain that to St Peter, Mr. former Alter Boy. And I hope that day is far off.
    Of course there are always grey areas in 'right and wrong'. And not only that, there are degrees of 'wrongness'.

    Grey Areas
    Is it always wrong to kill? What if it's in self defense? Is it always wrong to lie? What if lying saves a life? Is it always wrong to steal? What if stealing a loaf of bread keeps your family from starving?

    Degrees of Wrong
    Is it wrong to call someone names for no reason? Sure! But not as wrong as punching them in the mouth for no reason. And that's not as wrong as shooting them in the head for no reason.

    Is it wrong?
    So now we get the the real question...."Is it "Wrong" to legally exploit a Video Poker game's software flaw? I would argue that this is a competition between player and casino and as long as the player is behaving perfectly legally it's the casino's responsibility to make sure their machines are paying off as they expect. Otherwise, one day you may find yourself arrested for taking advantage of seeing the dealer's hole card....as the casino could claim they didn't intend for the player to know what the dealer had. It's a slippery slope.

    But even if you truly believe that it is wrong to exploit the double up flaw, how serious a transgression is it really? The bottom line is you took advantage of a casino....legally. Big deal. Are you really ready to moralize and condemn someone for that? Isn't that what all advantage players do every day? You're just arguing against the method they used to legally take advantage of casinos. The end result is the same.

    Humans do things that are 'Wrong' every day. They spit. They curse. They Smoke and Drink. They speed and run stop lights and disobey all kinds of traffic laws. Some believe Abortion is a right. Others feel it is a sin. The fact of the matter is that we are all 'sinners'. It's easy to get on a self-righteous high horse and point out moral transgressions in others before we really consider our own non-perfect lives. That's wrong too, eh?

    Ok...sometimes I wax a little philosophical.
    This whole post is liberalism 101. Since I am an anti-liberal, I’ve got to respond. First, you pulled out the old tried-and-true go-to-liberal argument to try to show right or wrong is relative. What is that? The “stealing the loaf of bread so your family doesn’t starve to death” hypothetical. It’s a great hypothetical situation to illustrate a point, but the problem is there is no where in the world where you can give an example where this has occurred. Even in Third World poverty stricken nations no one is in that situation. There are small menial jobs someone can do to afford a loaf of bread.

    Liberals usually use this example to excuse all the prisoners filling our prisons by stealing (and selling illegal) things. For the record, contrary to what liberals think, no one in America is stealing because their family is starving to death. It’s not occurring in the third world either.

    As far as different crimes having a different degree of wrongness to them of course that’s true. That’s why we have different punishments for different crimes. All crimes obviously don’t deserve the death penalty. I failed to understand the point you’re trying to make here.

    As far as if using the Double Up bug was wrong, KJ is right. It was wrong. There’s no moral relativism argument that can be used to make it right. Nester had to give all his winnings back to the casino once they caught him doing it. If what he was doing was right, he could’ve kept it.

    My view and the court’s view is that people should try to beat the casino’s games the way they were intended to be played. This is why courts in two different nations, America and England, ruled against Phil Ivey in his edge sorting scam.

    Saying all this, does not mean I wouldn’t have tried to take advantage of the double up bug if I came across it. But I certainly would not have been proud of myself or broadcast it to anybody that I did it. If I did something like this, I’d probably take it to the grave with me. But then I’d have to deal with St Peter and God on the other side so I don’t know if that’d be a good idea either.

    Bottom line is KJ is right on this one. Using the double up bug was wrong. There is no moral relativism argument they can be used to make it right.
    Unsure where your theoretical flapping is coming from. I certainly see no experience supporting whatever it is you're saying.

    Your Third World proclamation that no one steals food to feed their families out of necessity is a very poor guess on your part. I've been to every poor country on earth multiple times over. Not only do the poor who can't work for whatever reasons, steal food from street vendors daily to feed their children--they'll do that before accepting charity.

    Someone like you, had you discovered the double up flaw, would NEVER have been able to keep quiet about it for any length of time. That requires discipline. And would you have been able to develop a strategy for using it effectively? I don't see that in you either. But don't worry--you're in the majority there.

    Right vs. wrong.....that only means something to the individual. How much do you think it matters to me now that the money has been secured and no critics or any jealous law or legal parasites can do anything but shake a stick at me. And BTW, no liberal is smart enough to have been able to figure this thing out. That's something we should be in agreement on.

  15. #735
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Of course there are always grey areas in 'right and wrong'. And not only that, there are degrees of 'wrongness'.

    Grey Areas
    Is it always wrong to kill? What if it's in self defense? Is it always wrong to lie? What if lying saves a life? Is it always wrong to steal? What if stealing a loaf of bread keeps your family from starving?

    Degrees of Wrong
    Is it wrong to call someone names for no reason? Sure! But not as wrong as punching them in the mouth for no reason. And that's not as wrong as shooting them in the head for no reason.

    Is it wrong?
    So now we get the the real question...."Is it "Wrong" to legally exploit a Video Poker game's software flaw? I would argue that this is a competition between player and casino and as long as the player is behaving perfectly legally it's the casino's responsibility to make sure their machines are paying off as they expect. Otherwise, one day you may find yourself arrested for taking advantage of seeing the dealer's hole card....as the casino could claim they didn't intend for the player to know what the dealer had. It's a slippery slope.

    But even if you truly believe that it is wrong to exploit the double up flaw, how serious a transgression is it really? The bottom line is you took advantage of a casino....legally. Big deal. Are you really ready to moralize and condemn someone for that? Isn't that what all advantage players do every day? You're just arguing against the method they used to legally take advantage of casinos. The end result is the same.

    Humans do things that are 'Wrong' every day. They spit. They curse. They Smoke and Drink. They speed and run stop lights and disobey all kinds of traffic laws. Some believe Abortion is a right. Others feel it is a sin. The fact of the matter is that we are all 'sinners'. It's easy to get on a self-righteous high horse and point out moral transgressions in others before we really consider our own non-perfect lives. That's wrong too, eh?

    Ok...sometimes I wax a little philosophical.
    This whole post is liberalism 101. Since I am an anti-liberal, I’ve got to respond. First, you pulled out the old tried-and-true go-to-liberal argument to try to show right or wrong is relative. What is that? The “stealing the loaf of bread so your family doesn’t starve to death” hypothetical. It’s a great hypothetical situation to illustrate a point, but the problem is there is no where in the world where you can give an example where this has occurred. Even in Third World poverty stricken nations no one is in that situation. There are small menial jobs someone can do to afford a loaf of bread.

    Liberals usually use this example to excuse all the prisoners filling our prisons by stealing (and selling illegal) things. For the record, contrary to what liberals think, no one in America is stealing because their family is starving to death. It’s not occurring in the third world either.

    As far as different crimes having a different degree of wrongness to them of course that’s true. That’s why we have different punishments for different crimes. All crimes obviously don’t deserve the death penalty. I failed to understand the point you’re trying to make here.

    As far as if using the Double Up bug was wrong, KJ is right. It was wrong. There’s no moral relativism argument that can be used to make it right. Nester had to give all his winnings back to the casino once they caught him doing it. If what he was doing was right, he could’ve kept it.

    My view and the court’s view is that people should try to beat the casino’s games the way they were intended to be played. This is why courts in two different nations, America and England, ruled against Phil Ivey in his edge sorting scam.

    Saying all this, does not mean I wouldn’t have tried to take advantage of the double up bug if I came across it. But I certainly would not have been proud of myself or broadcast it to anybody that I did it. If I did something like this, I’d probably take it to the grave with me. But then I’d have to deal with St Peter and God on the other side so I don’t know if that’d be a good idea either.

    Bottom line is KJ is right on this one. Using the double up bug was wrong. There is no moral relativism argument they can be used to make it right.
    Unsure where your theoretical flapping is coming from. I certainly see no experience supporting whatever it is you're saying.

    Your Third World proclamation that no one steals food to feed their families out of necessity is a very poor guess on your part. I've been to every poor country on earth multiple times over. Not only do the poor who can't work for whatever reasons, steal food from street vendors daily to feed their children--they'll do that before accepting charity.

    Someone like you, had you discovered the double up flaw, would NEVER have been able to keep quiet about it for any length of time. That requires discipline. And would you have been able to develop a strategy for using it effectively? I don't see that in you either. But don't worry--you're in the majority there.

    Right vs. wrong.....that only means something to the individual. How much do you think it matters to me now that the money has been secured and no critics or any jealous law or legal parasites can do anything but shake a stick at me. And BTW, no liberal is smart enough to have been able to figure this thing out. That's something we should be in agreement on.
    Rob, since you don’t know me you’re making a lot of assumptions about me that are incorrect. I’m sure I know more about poverty and third world countries than you’ll ever know. My brother has worked with refugees around the world for his whole life. He has lived in some of the poorest third world countries in the world for about 20 years. I’ve personally visited large refugee camps in Central America during the Reagan years, when we were trying to stop communism from spreading. I saw conditions in those refugee camps that were deplorable. It was hard to believe humans could live like that. You know what I never saw or heard about when I was in these refugee camps? Stealing? So I know much more than you could ever know about the poor and disadvantage around the world.

    Are their poor people in the streets in third world counties stealing from people? Of course. Are they stealing because “their family is starving to death”? No. That was my point. Most of these street kids have no families, they are runaways. I’m not going to get into a big discussion of how these countries got into this situation. That’s a whole different debate.

    My point is there are not families where the father or mother has to go out and steal “a loaf of beard so their family doesn’t starve to death”. This is the hypothetical situation that the liberals like to throw out there. They also use this example to justify people stealing in our country. It isn’t happening.

    As far as you taking advantage of the double up bug, you have no idea what I would have done. I don’t either. But I do know I would have known it was wrong. Anybody with a conscience would know it’s wrong. That doesn’t mean I might not have tried to milk it like you did (if this wasn’t just a story you made up to gain recognition amoung your peers). But my inner conscience (moral compass if you like) would have still told me this was wrong. I definitely wouldn’t have bragged about it or let anybody know I did it. That’s like bragging about taking advantage of a bug in an ATM machine that spits out cash (and I know I’m not the first person who has made that point).

    One last point. I doubt if you’ve been to “every poor country on earth multiple times over.” First, what defines a poor country? There are liberals that would call America poor since we still have people in our country they classify as poor. While I know you aren’t a liberal that statement was right out of the liberal’s playbook.
    Last edited by Bob21; 06-16-2019 at 01:45 PM.

  16. #736
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    I did not know we had a member who is a Psychologist, an Attorney, a Mind Reader....and a Priest, all wrapped up into the world's most Righteous Soul! Thank you for the Father's Day greeting regardless. THAT tells ME that you feel you are in need of better earthly guidance.

    A 308% ddbp game mickey? And that's on a 10:1 ratio. The other two were 20:1 & 25:1. I think that's grounds for a book deal with Anthony Curtis!
    No point in keeping pat full houses - throw away the pair with these pay tables. No point in keeping two pair either - throw away one of the pairs (the lower one if one pair is high cards).
    Last edited by tableplay; 06-16-2019 at 02:36 PM.

  17. #737
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post

    This whole post is liberalism 101. Since I am an anti-liberal, I’ve got to respond. First, you pulled out the old tried-and-true go-to-liberal argument to try to show right or wrong is relative. What is that? The “stealing the loaf of bread so your family doesn’t starve to death” hypothetical. It’s a great hypothetical situation to illustrate a point, but the problem is there is no where in the world where you can give an example where this has occurred. Even in Third World poverty stricken nations no one is in that situation. There are small menial jobs someone can do to afford a loaf of bread.

    Liberals usually use this example to excuse all the prisoners filling our prisons by stealing (and selling illegal) things. For the record, contrary to what liberals think, no one in America is stealing because their family is starving to death. It’s not occurring in the third world either.

    As far as different crimes having a different degree of wrongness to them of course that’s true. That’s why we have different punishments for different crimes. All crimes obviously don’t deserve the death penalty. I failed to understand the point you’re trying to make here.

    As far as if using the Double Up bug was wrong, KJ is right. It was wrong. There’s no moral relativism argument that can be used to make it right. Nester had to give all his winnings back to the casino once they caught him doing it. If what he was doing was right, he could’ve kept it.

    My view and the court’s view is that people should try to beat the casino’s games the way they were intended to be played. This is why courts in two different nations, America and England, ruled against Phil Ivey in his edge sorting scam.

    Saying all this, does not mean I wouldn’t have tried to take advantage of the double up bug if I came across it. But I certainly would not have been proud of myself or broadcast it to anybody that I did it. If I did something like this, I’d probably take it to the grave with me. But then I’d have to deal with St Peter and God on the other side so I don’t know if that’d be a good idea either.

    Bottom line is KJ is right on this one. Using the double up bug was wrong. There is no moral relativism argument they can be used to make it right.
    Unsure where your theoretical flapping is coming from. I certainly see no experience supporting whatever it is you're saying.

    Your Third World proclamation that no one steals food to feed their families out of necessity is a very poor guess on your part. I've been to every poor country on earth multiple times over. Not only do the poor who can't work for whatever reasons, steal food from street vendors daily to feed their children--they'll do that before accepting charity.

    Someone like you, had you discovered the double up flaw, would NEVER have been able to keep quiet about it for any length of time. That requires discipline. And would you have been able to develop a strategy for using it effectively? I don't see that in you either. But don't worry--you're in the majority there.

    Right vs. wrong.....that only means something to the individual. How much do you think it matters to me now that the money has been secured and no critics or any jealous law or legal parasites can do anything but shake a stick at me. And BTW, no liberal is smart enough to have been able to figure this thing out. That's something we should be in agreement on.
    Rob, since you don’t know me you’re making a lot of assumptions about me that are incorrect. I’m sure I know more about poverty and third world countries than you’ll ever know. My brother has worked with refugees around the world for his whole life. He has lived in some of the poorest third world countries in the world for about 20 years. I’ve personally visited large refugee camps in Central America during the Reagan years, when we were trying to stop communism from spreading. I saw conditions in those refugee camps that were deplorable. It was hard to believe humans could live like that. You know what I never saw or heard about when I was in these refugee camps? Stealing? So I know much more than you could ever know about the poor and disadvantage around the world.

    Are their poor people in the streets in third world counties stealing from people? Of course. Are they stealing because “their family is starving to death”? No. That was my point. Most of these street kids have no families, they are runaways. I’m not going to get into a big discussion of how these countries got into this situation. That’s a whole different debate.

    My point is there are not families where the father or mother has to go out and steal “a loaf of beard so their family doesn’t starve to death”. This is the hypothetical situation that the liberals like to throw out there. They also use this example to justify people stealing in our country. It isn’t happening.

    As far as you taking advantage of the double up bug, you have no idea what I would have done. I don’t either. But I do know I would have known it was wrong. Anybody with a conscience would know it’s wrong. That doesn’t mean I might not have tried to milk it like you did (if this wasn’t just a story you made up to gain recognition amoung your peers). But my inner conscience (moral compass if you like) would have still told me this was wrong. I definitely wouldn’t have bragged about it or let anybody know I did it. That’s like bragging about taking advantage of a bug in an ATM machine that spits out cash (and I know I’m not the first person who has made that point).

    One last point. I doubt if you’ve been to “every poor country on earth multiple times over.” First, what defines a poor country? There are liberals that would call America poor since we still have people in our country they classify as poor. While I know you aren’t a liberal that statement was right out of the liberal’s playbook.
    Boy are you confused. I guess you never saw one of my 9 remaining passports I posted, each with the maximum of four addendums sewed in. Yes, I've been to every country where there's an airport multiple times, because that was my job for 15 years. Prior to that I worked in every African, Middle East, and Caucasus shithole known to man for ten years. That's why I know you're blowing guess-smoke.

    Of course I have a very good idea of what you'd have done with discovery of a double up bug. You write such long-winded posts about such small issues that you practically give away whatever you really want to keep inside. And you're doing this knowing how smart and intuitive a person I am. That spells a lack of both a proper amount of discipline and the right amount of intelligence for a job like this.

  18. #738
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    You posting this confirms that deep down you know this is wrong, because these aren't the actual pay tables. They are the pay table you manipulated the machine to pay.

    furthermore the line "I accepted every FH down to High Pairs just as the pay table paid them. But any higher winners were always moved up in denomination", speaks volumes. It clearly shows that you didn't just take advantage of some machine error, but manipulated the machine to make that error. There is a difference.

    In a court of law the above line would be very damaging. But of course this isn't a court of law. This is a court of public opinion. And it so happens this particular court of public opinion is made up people (AP's and gamblers) that have an "anything goes against the casino attitude", completely ignoring the values of right and wrong that they were brought up with. And that's what we are talking about right and wrong. I accept it is not "illegal". Cheating? Well that is for each person to define and decide for themselves. But right and wrong...there is no grey area.

    You (rob) and others can pretend all you want. You can say whatever you want and/or need to justify your actions. But the truth comes through in both your actions, like not telling your family and friends for years, knowing they would disapprove if they really understood, and statements like this that reveal the truth. And the truth is you KNOW this is/was wrong. People sometimes are willing to accept doing things they know are wrong and I guess that is the case with you, but you can't hide the fact that you know it was wrong. Your actions and statements reveal that. You can't hide it and everything else is just being dishonest with yourself.

    But anyway, happy Father's day to you and all the other Fathers. Have a great day with your family and friends.
    No difference KJ. Rob did exactly what the machine was designed to let him do. If you are going to jump on this then you need to jump on hole carders too.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  19. #739
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    Originally Posted by Bob21 View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post

    Unsure where your theoretical flapping is coming from. I certainly see no experience supporting whatever it is you're saying.

    Your Third World proclamation that no one steals food to feed their families out of necessity is a very poor guess on your part. I've been to every poor country on earth multiple times over. Not only do the poor who can't work for whatever reasons, steal food from street vendors daily to feed their children--they'll do that before accepting charity.

    Someone like you, had you discovered the double up flaw, would NEVER have been able to keep quiet about it for any length of time. That requires discipline. And would you have been able to develop a strategy for using it effectively? I don't see that in you either. But don't worry--you're in the majority there.

    Right vs. wrong.....that only means something to the individual. How much do you think it matters to me now that the money has been secured and no critics or any jealous law or legal parasites can do anything but shake a stick at me. And BTW, no liberal is smart enough to have been able to figure this thing out. That's something we should be in agreement on.
    Rob, since you don’t know me you’re making a lot of assumptions about me that are incorrect. I’m sure I know more about poverty and third world countries than you’ll ever know. My brother has worked with refugees around the world for his whole life. He has lived in some of the poorest third world countries in the world for about 20 years. I’ve personally visited large refugee camps in Central America during the Reagan years, when we were trying to stop communism from spreading. I saw conditions in those refugee camps that were deplorable. It was hard to believe humans could live like that. You know what I never saw or heard about when I was in these refugee camps? Stealing? So I know much more than you could ever know about the poor and disadvantage around the world.

    Are their poor people in the streets in third world counties stealing from people? Of course. Are they stealing because “their family is starving to death”? No. That was my point. Most of these street kids have no families, they are runaways. I’m not going to get into a big discussion of how these countries got into this situation. That’s a whole different debate.

    My point is there are not families where the father or mother has to go out and steal “a loaf of beard so their family doesn’t starve to death”. This is the hypothetical situation that the liberals like to throw out there. They also use this example to justify people stealing in our country. It isn’t happening.

    As far as you taking advantage of the double up bug, you have no idea what I would have done. I don’t either. But I do know I would have known it was wrong. Anybody with a conscience would know it’s wrong. That doesn’t mean I might not have tried to milk it like you did (if this wasn’t just a story you made up to gain recognition amoung your peers). But my inner conscience (moral compass if you like) would have still told me this was wrong. I definitely wouldn’t have bragged about it or let anybody know I did it. That’s like bragging about taking advantage of a bug in an ATM machine that spits out cash (and I know I’m not the first person who has made that point).

    One last point. I doubt if you’ve been to “every poor country on earth multiple times over.” First, what defines a poor country? There are liberals that would call America poor since we still have people in our country they classify as poor. While I know you aren’t a liberal that statement was right out of the liberal’s playbook.
    Boy are you confused. I guess you never saw one of my 9 remaining passports I posted, each with the maximum of four addendums sewed in. Yes, I've been to every country where there's an airport multiple times, because that was my job for 15 years. Prior to that I worked in every African, Middle East, and Caucasus shithole known to man for ten years. That's why I know you're blowing guess-smoke.

    Of course I have a very good idea of what you'd have done with discovery of a double up bug. You write such long-winded posts about such small issues that you practically give away whatever you really want to keep inside. And you're doing this knowing how smart and intuitive a person I am. That spells a lack of both a proper amount of discipline and the right amount of intelligence for a job like this.
    What’s your point about being to all these countries? Are you saying because you’ve been to all these counties you’ve met all these families where the father or mother goes out to “steal a loaf of bread to feed their starving families”? That’s what our debate is about. It’s not really about how many countries you’ve been to.

    I’m not arguing that there are people stealing in poor third world countries. That goes on in all countries, even ours. What we’re debating is how many fathers (or mothers) are stealing that loaf of bread liberals talk so much about to feed “their starving families”.

    As far as your double up bug, I don’t know what I would have done. I said that in my last post. But I do know I would have known it was wrong. Anybody with a moral compass would know it’s wrong. It takes no intelligence or intuition to know it’s wrong. It just takes someone having a moral compass, which apparently you lack.

    Again, I think it’s great you’ve been to a bunch of airports. Big deal. That has no bearing on any point I was trying to make. Hope that wasn’t too long winded for you. Wise up. Lol

  20. #740
    Originally Posted by tableplay View Post
    Originally Posted by Rob.Singer View Post
    I did not know we had a member who is a Psychologist, an Attorney, a Mind Reader....and a Priest, all wrapped up into the world's most Righteous Soul! Thank you for the Father's Day greeting regardless. THAT tells ME that you feel you are in need of better earthly guidance.

    A 308% ddbp game mickey? And that's on a 10:1 ratio. The other two were 20:1 & 25:1. I think that's grounds for a book deal with Anthony Curtis!
    No point in keeping pat full houses - throw away the pair with these pay tables. No point in keeping two pair either - throw away one of the pairs (the lower one if one pair is high cards).
    Exactly what I did. And it wasn't just because of the massive high-end pay tables. It was also because I was playing at comparatively such a low denomination, which made any give in EV completely irrelevant.

    Earlier I forgot to mention my highest ratio pay table spread. 40:1 on 25c-$10 machines. There were very few of these available with the same pay table for quarters as for $10. But they were special.

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