Shutdown Total Insanity

[AndrewG]

How many deaths are acceptable to you?

I'll give you my number, if you give us your number. Because even the biggest left-wing liberal should have some number they see as acceptable for society to operate normally. For example, most people accept about 35,000 people dying each year from car wreaks. We know 100% of these deaths are preventable, if we'd just make people stop driving cars. But these deaths have been consider "acceptable" by our society so we can operate to what we consider as normal.

And most people also accept about 35,000 people dying from the flu each year (in bad years it's over 65,000), since most of these deaths could be prevented if we practiced social isolation non-stop, as we're doing now.

Okay, what is my number? My number is 1.2 million. How did I come up with that number? This is the number that dies every year due to cancer and heart disease, so it appears people are okay with this number of deaths each year. And coronavirus, for the most part, has the biggest impact on this group, which are the elderly and people who have bad tickers or other underlining health problems. Saying it another way, coronavirus is killing the people that will probably die soon anyway.

I gave you my number. So what is your number? There has got to be some acceptable number of deaths you're comfortable with to allow society to operate normally, or you aren't being reasonable.

My number is no number. I don't know how many could die. I also don't know how many will be very sick and how many people will just have a "cold."

I just don't know and that's what scares the hell out of me.

What also scares the hell out of me is that people don't have money. And I'm afraid people will get desperate without money and crime will increase.

I'm afraid for business owners who could lose everything. I'm afraid for families that could lose everything.

I'm afraid that some guy who's out of work will be worried so much when driving his car that he doesn't see me in the crosswalk.

I'm worried for Mr Mickeycrimm who is elderly with a bad ticker. I'm worried for Mr Kewlj who I believe is in his 40s with a bad ticker. I'm worried for Mr Singer who appears to be overweight and in his 70s.

I'm worried for my neighbors who work for the casinos. I worry for my sister in Florida who has lots of illnesses and lives alone and is 65.

If even one of these people I just mentioned became seriously ill it would be one too many. How can I possibly come up with an "acceptable number" that's in the thousands?

I'm getting depressed.

[Rob.Singer]

I'd be depressed too if I were overweight, divorced, addicted to casino action, and unable/incapable etc.

[Bob21]

How many deaths are acceptable to you?

I'll give you my number, if you give us your number. Because even the biggest left-wing liberal should have some number they see as acceptable for society to operate normally. For example, most people accept about 35,000 people dying each year from car wreaks. We know 100% of these deaths are preventable, if we'd just make people stop driving cars. But these deaths have been consider "acceptable" by our society so we can operate to what we consider as normal.

And most people also accept about 35,000 people dying from the flu each year (in bad years it's over 65,000), since most of these deaths could be prevented if we practiced social isolation non-stop, as we're doing now.

Okay, what is my number? My number is 1.2 million. How did I come up with that number? This is the number that dies every year due to cancer and heart disease, so it appears people are okay with this number of deaths each year. And coronavirus, for the most part, has the biggest impact on this group, which are the elderly and people who have bad tickers or other underlining health problems. Saying it another way, coronavirus is killing the people that will probably die soon anyway.

I gave you my number. So what is your number? There has got to be some acceptable number of deaths you're comfortable with to allow society to operate normally, or you aren't being reasonable.

My number is no number. I don't know how many could die. I also don't know how many will be very sick and how many people will just have a "cold."

I just don't know and that's what scares the hell out of me.

What also scares the hell out of me is that people don't have money. And I'm afraid people will get desperate without money and crime will increase.

I'm afraid for business owners who could lose everything. I'm afraid for families that could lose everything.

I'm afraid that some guy who's out of work will be worried so much when driving his car that he doesn't see me in the crosswalk.

I'm worried for Mr Mickeycrimm who is elderly with a bad ticker. I'm worried for Mr Kewlj who I believe is in his 40s with a bad ticker. I'm worried for Mr Singer who appears to be overweight and in his 70s.

I'm worried for my neighbors who work for the casinos. I worry for my sister in Florida who has lots of illnesses and lives alone and is 65.

If even one of these people I just mentioned became seriously ill it would be one too many. How can I possibly come up with an "acceptable number" that's in the thousands?

I'm getting depressed.

Look, I get it. You and I are on the same page. I want zero too! One is too many. I don't think anybody, liberal or conservative, wants anybody to die from this.

But the reality is we, as a society, have to make hard risk vs reward decisions on this. As you've pointed out, what is the risk in shutting everything down? Lives are being destroyed by people being out of work. The number one reason for divorce is financial hardship. How many divorces are being caused by this lock down? How many kids are going to be raised in single family households due to the lock down? We know kids in single family households have shorter life spans, higher risk for prison, and lower standard of livings. There are many, many other downsides to keeping everything in lock down mode. Lives will be lost due to the lock down too. Are people considering that?

Kj said it best in a previous post. There are no easy decisions here. I think everybody is coming around to seeing Trump has been right all along. Btw, I never doubted him. The cure (locking everything down) is becoming worse than the disease (coronavirus). At some point, we need to open things up and get things back to normal.

We have a lot of data by now on coronavirus. My favorite "lab experiment" is the Diamond Princess cruise ship where they tried (accidentaly) for four weeks to give it to every passenger on the ship. But less than 20% got it. And of the 20% who got it, about half showed no symptoms. None, nada, zero. And out of the 50% that showed symptoms, most were mild. Yes, some died, I think 8 died (and that is out of 3,700 people, who were mostly elderly). Most the ones who died were over 80. I hate to see people over 80 die, but then again I wish my parents made it to 80. At some point, we're all moving on, hopefully to the Great Glory far beyond!

Yes, lets practice safe social distanceing, but lets not go too far with this. And I agree we should protect our elderly, and this is being done. Lets take a reasoned approach on this, and open things up!

[monet]

If you keep America shut down things like this will happen.
The difference is Americans are Armed to the Teeth.

[Rob.Singer]

Arguing with Alan is exactly the feed he seeks. But what else is there to do?

[monet]

Here are a few interesting numbers.
Nobody shutting down the country for all these people dying every single year!!
This is just in America.
This is about 2 million per year.

Heart disease: 697,457
Cancer: 599,108
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 169,936
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 160,201
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 146,383
Alzheimer’s disease: 121,404
Diabetes: 83,564
Influenza and Pneumonia: 55,672
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis: 50,633
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,173

[AndrewG]

Arguing with Alan is exactly the feed he seeks. But what else is there to do?

According to some messages you and Mr Alan were good buddies.

[AndrewG]

Here are a few interesting numbers.
Nobody shutting down the country for all these people dying every single year!!
This is just in America.
This is about 2 million per year.

Heart disease: 697,457
Cancer: 599,108
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 169,936
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 160,201
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 146,383
Alzheimer’s disease: 121,404
Diabetes: 83,564
Influenza and Pneumonia: 55,672
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis: 50,633
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,173

This is the great irony, Mr Monet, and I wish I could show you the arguments I had with others about these same exact points when I questioned the shutdown.

What I think happened that was different is that with the virus there was fear it really would wipe out mankind. Do you remember the analogies to the Spanish Flu with 100 million dead? Think back for a minute --- there really were people saying 100 million would die!

If at the beginning we were told 25,000 Americans would die with half of them in the NYC area we probably would have seen a much different approach.

Had we been told early on that overweight people and those with diabetes were more vulnerable we probably would have had a different approach.

Frankly the TRUMP CRITICS are responsible for the harsh living conditions we have now. They demanded action but Trump's action wasn't strong enough so the governors and the mayors went even stronger.

You get what you ask for.

[tableplay]

I was playing just about every day up until the shutdown.
No problems with people coughing or touching the machines.
This Virus is a Hoax lol.

100% agree Monet. I was going through hundreds of screens a week, hopping from machine to machine for the one and dones. Day after day, week after week in heavy Asian populations (the Asians love to spit in the trash boxes at the end of the machine banks and they love to spit on the screens too). There's no way I didn't get it. I had the green phlegm sinus thing w/cough in the 1st half of march (vulturing most of those days - only a couple days of downtime) and that was that. They shut down everything for this shit. Things will never be the same again, because of their buffoonery.

[AndrewG]

Unfortunately this Governor in Nevada is not going to open the casinos anytime soon. It's pretty clear that he is going to be strict and I think most of the rest of the world will be open before Vegas casinos are allowed to reopen.

[mickeycrimm]

Unfortunately this Governor in Nevada is not going to open the casinos anytime soon. It's pretty clear that he is going to be strict and I think most of the rest of the world will be open before Vegas casinos are allowed to reopen.

If anyone can back the Governor down it's the casino industry. They control the politics in the state.

[AndrewG]

Unfortunately this Governor in Nevada is not going to open the casinos anytime soon. It's pretty clear that he is going to be strict and I think most of the rest of the world will be open before Vegas casinos are allowed to reopen.

If anyone can back the Governor down it's the casino industry. They control the politics in the state.

So give us a date that you think the casino industry will flex its muscle?

[mickeycrimm]

Unfortunately this Governor in Nevada is not going to open the casinos anytime soon. It's pretty clear that he is going to be strict and I think most of the rest of the world will be open before Vegas casinos are allowed to reopen.

If anyone can back the Governor down it's the casino industry. They control the politics in the state.

So give us a date that you think the casino industry will flex its muscle?

They are most likely doing it right now behind the scenes. They have the power to destroy the Governor politically.

[The Boz]

If anyone can back the Governor down it's the casino industry. They control the politics in the state.

So give us a date that you think the casino industry will flex its muscle?

They are most likely doing it right now behind the scenes. They have the power to destroy the Governor politically.

Absolutely correct Mickey. Clark County and to a much smaller degree Washoe, are the voting base in NV. And how they go, the state goes. The Casinos and the Workers Union are the biggest money base politically in the state and both want to get back to work. Add in all the ancillary businesses that survive off the casinos like the airport, transportation infrastructure, restaurants, tourist sites and more and people want to work. The pressure will continue to ramp up as we saw in Michigan yesterday.

Some fear there will be no customers when they open. I don’t subscribe to that at all. There is a pent up demand by people and with some common sense changes, they will flock back. AA is offering $72 Round Trip from Philly in late May and June. People will drive from LA on weekends to party in Vegas and post it on Social Media. You can’t keep the American spirit down.

The Governor will find a way to open the casinos soon and save face with saying he gained concessions to make it look like he is concerned. If not he risks NV losing its lead place in the Gambling World, one that was already at risk.

I do think Mississippi will be one of the first to open and very shortly. Gov Reeves is not a liberal and knows how important the industry is to his state.

[AndrewG]

Mr Boz do you honestly think people will have the money to spend in Vegas casinos after this national shutdown? The professional gamblers and the Vegas enthusiasts on social media don't supply enough action to open even one casino.

This is so much different than after 9/11.

After 9/11 people were afraid to travel but no jobs were shut down. It was New Year's Eve when Vegas finally had crowds again.

This time you're looking at 30 to 40% nationwide unemployment with families one or two months behind on rent and mortgages and business owners struggling to stay open.

I think it could be months and months before there is a desire to go to a casino. This may be the last industry to recover.

[The Boz]

Mr Boz do you honestly think people will have the money to spend in Vegas casinos after this national shutdown? The professional gamblers and the Vegas enthusiasts on social media don't supply enough action to open even one casino.

This is so much different than after 9/11.

After 9/11 people were afraid to travel but no jobs were shut down. It was New Year's Eve when Vegas finally had crowds again.

This time you're looking at 30 to 40% nationwide unemployment with families one or two months behind on rent and mortgages and business owners struggling to stay open.

I think it could be months and months before there is a desire to go to a casino. This may be the last industry to recover.

Yes, YES I do. As much as liberals want to destroy the economy, it won’t happen. The American spirit is too hard to kill.

Other than small business owners and the self employed, who is actually being long term financially impacted by this? While people are currently hurting while waiting for UC to come in, they will get it eventually. The $1200 plus child bonus is free money to everyone who qualifies even if they are still working.

People getting UC will get an extra $600 a week through July 31st, with more extensions coming if this keeps up. I personally talked to 2 Restaurant owners I have relationships with and they are busier than ever with Take Out. And have employees asking to be laid off because they can make more on UC. While that certainly isn’t most employees, there is a segment out there that knows it’s better financially to sit home.

So don’t tell me people aren’t going to have money to waste. It may be IPhone 11’s, new cars, TV’s, casinos or whatever. We know most wont put $500 away for a rainy day. And just how the hell is anyone 2 months behind on rent on April 16th?

As discussed, casinos will see less business at the start and will adjust. I’m not saying every casino will open and be packed. But they need to be allowed to open, bring back some employees and start contributing to the recovery. Not sure why you could be against it, unless you are concerned about your own finances with them opening.

[AndrewG]

I hope you're correct Mr Boz. My guess is that at least half of the people living in my complex have jobs related to casinos.

Consider this: on a normal evening at least half of the parking spaces in my parking areas are open. It's all reserved parking with a gate key.

Since the shutdown started almost every spot is in use. That tells me my neighbors are going nowhere.

Whether Sisolak can be pressured now is unlikely. He just got elected. He doesn't need votes now.

[jpfromla]

Unfortunately this Governor in Nevada is not going to open the casinos anytime soon. It's pretty clear that he is going to be strict and I think most of the rest of the world will be open before Vegas casinos are allowed to reopen.

If anyone can back the Governor down it's the casino industry. They control the politics in the state.

The tax revenue from gaming will back the Governor down. Carson City will be broke without their gaming fees/tax revenues.

[AndrewG]

You're right about tax revenue Mr jpfromla. But Nevada is controlled by Democrats and the Democrats in Congress are pushing for federal money for the states.

Curiously Sisolak allowed construction to continue. Think about that.

Why allow construction to continue but not casinos? Could it be construction jobs pay more taxes than casino jobs and construction contributes more to the state economy in the short term?

The reality is even if the casinos were reopened at 6pm tonight they'd be empty for two weeks. No planes and shutdowns in other states would prevent visitors.

[The Boz]

The reality is even if the casinos were reopened at 6pm tonight they'd be empty for two weeks. No planes and shutdowns in other states would prevent visitors.

Actually, while not cheap because it’s last minute, plenty of flights available tomorrow. AA has run 2 Nonstops from Philadelphia each day through this with some cancellations. There are also plenty of connecting flight through LAX, PHX and DFW. This is one airline in one city. While certainly flights have been reduced by 80%+, the airlines are flying still. I only posted the top of the page, overall 23 options with different times and connecting cities.

And the casinos won’t reopen with no notice. They have to get employees back, train them on the new situations and be ready. But it will be happening sooner than later. That’s not for debate. Only debate is how long it will take to get back to “normal”. I don’t expect that anytime soon, but keeping them closed benefits no one.