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Thread: The Big Hurt Is Coming

  1. #501
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Shack is definitely sitting on some information.
    NOPE......try again

    Rob did finally get his legacy though. AP's not even into the story are laughing at Grandpa Newell.
    Yep, Shack is sitting on some information. I personally don't know which way it goes but I do know Shack is sitting on it. But you can pretend its not there if you want.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  2. #502
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by MDawg View Post
    J said he couldn't be bothered to post at DiversityTomorrow (which, incidentally has such a low Alexa rank that it isn't even calculated, even sites with as low as a five million rank are calculated, so figure that DT's traffic is so low that it's below measurable levels), and yet is he actually now posting there in an effort to get back in at WOV? It must be worth it to him then, to get back in.
    Yes, I did initially say I was going to decline Mike's offer to participate at DT. I would like to get back to talking mostly about topics related to gambling, advantage play, Las Vegas and Casinos, including sharing some of my experiences as a professional BJ player and an AP living in Vegas. And by rule, these very topics are not supposed to be discussed at DI. Mike has said I am free to discuss some of these things that would otherwise be discouraged there. Of course the membership at DI isn't really interested in these topics, that is why they are posting at DT and not WoV. So DT isn't really a good fit for me.

    But the reason I changed my mind and said I would give it a try is because in talking, Mike and I both have an interest in moving forward towards my return to WoV. I think it is past time that we just move forward. There were mistakes made by all. There is no good that will come from rehashing and revisiting them. Just move forward. Mike didn't see it that way and wanted conditions from me that I am unwilling to make. So at a bit of a stand still he suggested a path through DT. What he considers a probationary trial (with no promises or guarantees of anything). So after initially declining, I reconsidered and said, lets give it a try. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. We'll see.
    Quitting VCT is easy. KJocchio has done it a thousand times.
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  3. #503
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Shack is definitely sitting on some information.
    NOPE......try again

    Rob did finally get his legacy though. AP's not even into the story are laughing at Grandpa Newell.
    Yep, Shack is sitting on some information. I personally don't know which way it goes but I do know Shack is sitting on it. But you can pretend its not there if you want.
    Did Grandpa Newell feed you some more BS?
    Keep in mind, my reason for saying NOPE is probably about as valid as it can get.

  4. #504
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Originally Posted by MaxPen View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post

    Shack is definitely sitting on some information.
    NOPE......try again

    Rob did finally get his legacy though. AP's not even into the story are laughing at Grandpa Newell.
    Yep, Shack is sitting on some information. I personally don't know which way it goes but I do know Shack is sitting on it. But you can pretend its not there if you want.
    I'm not sure what information you might be talking about. Prior to the interview he said he knew Kane or Nestor, I don't remember which one. He reached out to one of them prior to the interview to ask for the exact sequencing and some other things, but they can't comment since they are under contract(from my understanding, there was no response at all). Also, From my understanding, the special is on hold at this point. Someone brought up what you said and Mike claims not to be sitting on any information. I guess there was a delayed joke and sad he wouldn't be able to tell us if he was. But knowing Mike, if that was really the case, he would just say, no comment.
    Last edited by AxelWolf; 05-21-2020 at 07:19 PM.

  5. #505
    deleted
    "More importantly, mickey thought 8-4 was two games over .500. Argued about it. C'mon, man. Nothing can top that for math expertise. If GWAE ever has you on again, you can be sure I'll be calling in with that gem.'Nuff said." REDIETZ

  6. #506
    Originally Posted by unowme View Post
    Originally Posted by mickeycrimm View Post
    Much shittier shit than the shit you have on your nose from having it stuck up Shack's ass.
    Man...I don't think shit can get much shittier than that.
    It certainly can, BigBilly 1 hour after finishing a octuple burger bypass combo with extra large fries/shake.....whoa nelly!!!

  7. #507
    I am not into slots - have probably played an hour or less of any kind of gaming machine in my life, other than maybe free tournament play.

    I had never even heard of the "double up" bug until recently.

    I just finished reading this long article about Kane and Nestor
    https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/
    and even while reading it, before knowing the story's conclusion, I kept thinking that none of the statutes either was charged with was going to stick - I mean they didn't tamper with the machines, all they did was exploit the same programming that was available to anyone who walked up and played. At best, they could have been sued to return the winnings, something like what happened to Phil Ivey.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...n-in-winnings/

    At the same time, the bug appears to be something that would be extremely different to chance upon. That someone other than these two discovered it, seems unlikely. As well, these two got away with it for - unless I read the article too fast - a matter of days, to the tune of just some hundreds of thousands.

    But Rob is claiming that he exploited the double up bug for YEARS to the tune of $2.8M? That seems preposterous that he could have gotten away with it for so long and for that much given how quickly they caught Kane and Nestor.

    All that aside, these two were never convicted, correct? So what is Rob worried about? Tax evasion? But he bought the motor home with a certified check,
    https://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sh...ger-RV-Receipt
    according to his receipt he showed us, no? which would mean that he had already gotten the money into a bank account.
    https://vegascasinotalk.com/forum/sh...l=1#post105574

    What's he worried about then? If not tax evasion, money laundering? What statute of limitations was he riding out? I'd speculate further but it doesn't strike me as worthy of a whole lot of further consideration without more clarity from Rob.

    So many holes, contradictions or at best - missing parts - to this story.
    I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.

    MDawg Adventures carry on at: https://www.truepassage.com/forums/f.../46-IPlayVegas

  8. #508
    Originally Posted by MDawg View Post

    I just finished reading this long article about Kane and Nestor
    https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/
    and even while reading it, before knowing the story's conclusion, I kept thinking that none of the statutes either was charged with was going to stick - I mean they didn't tamper with the machines, all they did was exploit the same programming that was available to anyone who walked up and played. At best, they could have been sued to return the winnings,
    MDawg, unfortunately, you are late to the discussion. We have already had a years worth of discussions on this topic.

    If I am not mistaken wasn't the charge conspiracy and violations of the computer fraud act? There were other charges of computer hacking. All of that was simply an over-reach by a prosecutor.

    Any case in which a casino or casino industry is the "victims" is a difficult case for prosecutors anyway because few people have much sympathy for casinos. But then to get into this computer fraud, conspiracy stuff was goofy. And "hacking"....there was no hacking. It should have been a just straight up theft or receiving stolen goods, which includes receiving property, cash, merchandise, you are not entitled to. They would have gotten a conviction, gotten what money was left back, straddled Kane and Nestor with a shitload of legal expenses and they would have served some time....probably relatively short. Whoever made the call on the prosecution blew the case.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  9. #509
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    It should have been a just straight up theft or receiving stolen goods, which includes receiving property, cash, merchandise, you are not entitled to. They would have gotten a conviction, gotten what money was left back, straddled Kane and Nestor with a shitload of legal expenses and they would have served some time....probably relatively short. Whoever made the call on the prosecution blew the case.
    You're suddenly an expert? The reason why they brought up the other charges was because they know that other stuff wouldn't stick and that's why they tried to get creative with the computer hacking and all that.

    Do you know anybody or have any cases where someone's been convicted of theft by deception when it comes to gambling related activities(at least here in Nevada) that wasn't a clear-cut case of cheating such as marking cards or rigging/ using a device on a machine? For example, overpayers, skippers, faulty bill validators, taking advantage of glitches, Miss programming, or anything in those categories. I think anytime you make a wager or risk money that entire argument about it being illegal taking money from and ATM machine that starts spitting out money doesn't apply when it comes to gambling. I don't know if this is true, but someone mentioned they have never been able find any cases here in the US where someone was convicted of cheating at poker. There may be a case where the dealer was involved. I know your hate for Rob desperately wants what he claims to have done to be considered illegal.

  10. #510
    Read this and tell me if you think what Singer did was legal? By the way I asked the NGC enforcement division office here in Vegas if they could prosecute now because of the statute of limitations and they said NO. I posted that here before with the phone number of the office so you could call and ask yourselves.

    Now here's the Nevada law:

    NRS 465.070  Fraudulent acts.

    Now you tell me if the DUB is legal?

  11. #511
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    It should have been a just straight up theft or receiving stolen goods, which includes receiving property, cash, merchandise, you are not entitled to. They would have gotten a conviction, gotten what money was left back, straddled Kane and Nestor with a shitload of legal expenses and they would have served some time....probably relatively short. Whoever made the call on the prosecution blew the case.
    You're suddenly an expert? The reason why they brought up the other charges was because they know that other stuff wouldn't stick and that's why they tried to get creative with the computer hacking and all that.

    Do you know anybody or have any cases where someone's been convicted of theft by deception when it comes to gambling related activities(at least here in Nevada) that wasn't a clear-cut case of cheating such as marking cards or rigging/ using a device on a machine? For example, overpayers, skippers, faulty bill validators, taking advantage of glitches, Miss programming, or anything in those categories. I think anytime you make a wager or risk money that entire argument about it being illegal taking money from and ATM machine that starts spitting out money doesn't apply when it comes to gambling. I don't know if this is true, but someone mentioned they have never been able find any cases here in the US where someone was convicted of cheating at poker. There may be a case where the dealer was involved.
    No, I am not an expert. I think I am a reasonable person who understands right from wrong.

    I can tell you this much: If I had been on the jury and it was explained to me what these guys did. Hit a jackpot of say $400, but manipulated the machine to pay $4000 over and over, I would have convicted them of theft.

    But if the prosecutors started talking about conspiracy of the computer fraud act and hacking, I would have voted innocent. The computer fraud act has to do with hacking into systems from a remote location. They did none of that. They didn't even hack anything. They manipulated the machine to pay them money that they were not entitled to. That is theft in my book. THAT I would have convicted them of. That's just me.

    And lets go to another example. If you are buying new flat screen TV's off of the back of a truck at $40 a pop, you can and will be convicted of theft and receiving stolen property even though you stole nothing. That has been proven many times. I don't know the exact terminology but it has to do with reasonable expectation that you are receiving something you are not legally entitled to. These guys received and accepted payments they were not entitled to.

    Want another example: What about the idiot in Philadelphia, decades ago, probably before I was born. Found bags of money that had fallen out of brinks truck. He didn't steal that money, but it was money he was not entitled to.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  12. #512
    Let me make it easy for you. This is part of the Nevada Law:

    5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.

    6.  To reduce the amount wagered or cancel the bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including pinching bets.

    7.  To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component,

  13. #513
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Let me make it easy for you. This is part of the Nevada Law:

    5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.

    6.  To reduce the amount wagered or cancel the bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including pinching bets.

    7.  To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component,
    Great example "andrew".

    read #5. The common example of this is capping a bet, after the outcome by increasing chips. And that is exactly what they did, only they did so electronically.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  14. #514
    It's clear the DUB violates THESE LAWS.

    Lucky for Mr Singer
    1. He didn't get caught, or
    2. He never really did it.

  15. #515
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Let me make it easy for you. This is part of the Nevada Law:

    5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.

    6.  To reduce the amount wagered or cancel the bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including pinching bets.

    7.  To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component,
    I'm not a lawyer, however, all of these things have been brought up before and trampled on when it comes to machine play. Again, I ask, please show me where someone's been convicted. Of course I don't know what the laws are in the various states that Rob claims to have played this at.

  16. #516
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Read this and tell me if you think what Singer did was legal? By the way I asked the NGC enforcement division office here in Vegas if they could prosecute now because of the statute of limitations and they said NO. I posted that here before with the phone number of the office so you could call and ask yourselves.

    Now here's the Nevada law:

    NRS 465.070  Fraudulent acts.

    Now you tell me if the DUB is legal?
    I'm not sure why people think that Singer did something illegal.

    Singer claimed he discovered the DUB, played it for years, and made a bunch of money off it.
    Singer is recently asked for evidence that this claim is true.
    Singer posts pictures of the RV he says he bought with the DUB money as his only evidence of the play.
    MaxPen shows the posted pictures is of a different year RV that is actually in a dealership.
    Singer's story isn't true.

    I would imagine that several people tried to find the DUB after the story broke and some probably found it, maybe even Singer. This isn't Singer's story though. MaxPen has debunked Singer's story.

  17. #517
    Originally Posted by wasilla View Post
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Read this and tell me if you think what Singer did was legal? By the way I asked the NGC enforcement division office here in Vegas if they could prosecute now because of the statute of limitations and they said NO. I posted that here before with the phone number of the office so you could call and ask yourselves.

    Now here's the Nevada law:

    NRS 465.070  Fraudulent acts.

    Now you tell me if the DUB is legal?
    I'm not sure why people think that Singer did something illegal.

    Singer claimed he discovered the DUB, played it for years, and made a bunch of money off it.
    Singer is recently asked for evidence that this claim is true.
    Singer posts pictures of the RV he says he bought with the DUB money as his only evidence of the play.
    MaxPen shows the posted pictures is of a different year RV that is actually in a dealership.
    Singer's story isn't true.

    I would imagine that several people tried to find the DUB after the story broke and some probably found it, maybe even Singer. This isn't Singer's story though. MaxPen has debunked Singer's story.
    This does not matter.
    ZenKing is about to burn Mob Infested Las Vegas to the ground.

  18. #518
    Originally Posted by AxelWolf View Post
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Let me make it easy for you. This is part of the Nevada Law:

    5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.

    6.  To reduce the amount wagered or cancel the bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including pinching bets.

    7.  To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component,
    I'm not a lawyer, however, all of these things have been brought up before and trampled on when it comes to machine play. Again, I ask, please show me where someone's been convicted. Of course I don't know what the laws are in the various states that Rob claims to have played this at.
    There haven't been convictions?

    Not of the DUB because Kane and Nestor weren't prosecuted under state law.

    Singer either wasn't caught or never did the bug.

  19. #519
    Originally Posted by wasilla View Post

    I'm not sure why people think that Singer did something illegal.

    Singer claimed he discovered the DUB, played it for years, and made a bunch of money off it.
    Singer is recently asked for evidence that this claim is true.
    Singer posts pictures of the RV he says he bought with the DUB money as his only evidence of the play.
    MaxPen shows the posted pictures is of a different year RV that is actually in a dealership.
    Singer's story isn't true.

    I would imagine that several people tried to find the DUB after the story broke and some probably found it, maybe even Singer. This isn't Singer's story though. MaxPen has debunked Singer's story.
    Wasilla, if you are gonna speak reasonably, you aren't going to fit in here.
    Dan Druff: "there's no question that MDawg has been an obnoxious braggart, and has rubbed a ton of people the wrong way. There's something missing from his stories. Either they're fabricated, grossly exaggerated, or largely incomplete".

  20. #520
    Originally Posted by kewlJ View Post
    Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
    Let me make it easy for you. This is part of the Nevada Law:

    5.  To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.

    6.  To reduce the amount wagered or cancel the bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including pinching bets.

    7.  To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component,
    Great example "andrew".

    read #5. The common example of this is capping a bet, after the outcome by increasing chips. And that is exactly what they did, only they did so electronically.
    why do you think they didn't convict them on that? There have been many other things like this throughout the years that should fall under that law. There was a Keno glitch where people were able to move up in denominations after hitting the combination (no convictions). People have been able to put bills in Bill validators and quickly pull the bill out and still receive credits, they took a considerable amount from Bellagio (no convictions). Machine over-payers and a bunch of other things we're rampant PRE TITO yet I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted, let alone convicted. I know somebody that was detained for playing an over-payer, when gaming was called out, the gaming agents told the casino to let them go and that it was the casinos responsibility to maintain their machines.

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